Slovene warcrimes

[sLOVEne]

I apologize again for my bad Slovene!

Apology accepted

[LuftStuka]

Thx now I can sleep easier at nights!

Ps: This thread seams to me to be unresolved. So what the final verdict there were some war crimes committed by Slovenes but not as much as in the rest of the Balkans?

[sLOVEne]

Thx now I can sleep easier at nights!

Ps: This thread seams to me to be unresolved. So what the final verdict there were some war crimes committed by Slovenes but not as much as in the rest of the Balkans?

Luftstuka,

You haven’t pointed anything out about Slovene war crimes (I explained in the previous post why Slovenes in the axis forces (80,000 strong) and the partisan forces (30,000) didn’t/ shouldn’t be regarded as war crimes), I’m sure that the small militia of Domobranci aren’t totally innocent of some sort of brutality. But as I mentioned that it was so insignificant that today’s government doesn’t see them as war crimes. I also made a distinction between the war and post war period (socialist Yugoslavia was guilty of massacres – as you pointed out the Tezno graves. This however was the crime of communists, and Tito himself (he wasn’t Slovene). Also the vast majority of victims there were Croatian (accused of being Ustase or collaborating with them) – thus it wasn’t a grave of massacres of Jews (I pointed out why earlier), it also points out that because the graves weren’t of Slovenes that very little were actually a part of the Domobranci/Home Guard.

[Krasnaya Zvezda]

I agree with Slovene fully. Slovenia did not existed as an independent state like Croatia during WWII and never had an organized movement actively participating in the holocaust. Never theories of the superiority of the Slovenians over the others existed at that time, unlike in Croatia. The elements fighting the Germans were partisans. They did not committed any atrocities against local civilian population, some of the examples Marcus posted (and I really do not quite understand what he ment to say with them) are the ones showing their treatment of the German ocupator, I do not know what else could the Germans expect? They came with the same intentions in Slovenia, they considered partisans irregulars and were killing them on the spot. They did not allow the creation of Slovenian army that will treat them according tto the Geneva convention. Yes, after the war, communist Yu army committed atrocities, it was an official army and bears responsibility for it, but communism is known for this and some Slovenians do have their blood on the hand, but this is not purely Slovenian production. The only other nation in former Yu that can also claim of not ever having committed any atrocities in their history (till 2001) are Macedonians.

[Benoit Douville]

Talking about Warcrimes in Slovenia. I was interesting in the subject to learn more and I found this:

MARIBOR, Slovenia (AP) _ More than a thousand human skeletons, believed to be Croats killed by vengeful anti-fascists in the aftermath of World War II, have been discovered in Slovenia, forensic experts said Thursday.

Some 1,179 skeletons had been found by Thursday after a two-week exhumation in an old trench discovered by highway workers near Maribor, northeastern Slovenia.

Franc Podrekar, a forensic expert, told Slovene television that "many victims had their hands or legs tied with the wire and there are bullet-shaped holes on their skulls.''

This article was written in 1999. Any truth to this???

[sLOVEne]

Talking about Warcrimes in Slovenia. I was interesting in the subject to learn more and I found this:

MARIBOR, Slovenia (AP) _ More than a thousand human skeletons, believed to be Croats killed by vengeful anti-fascists in the aftermath of World War II, have been discovered in Slovenia, forensic experts said Thursday.

Some 1,179 skeletons had been found by Thursday after a two-week exhumation in an old trench discovered by highway workers near Maribor, northeastern Slovenia.

Franc Podrekar, a forensic expert, told Slovene television that "many victims had their hands or legs tied with the wire and there are bullet-shaped holes on their skulls.''

This article was written in 1999. Any truth to this???

Hi Benoit,

Yes, most probably true. I think they are the same graves as Tezno (as it is a small village outside of Maribor) – because those were found in a similar way when construction began for a highway linking up Maribor (second largest city in Slo) with Ljubljana (the capital). In your post you have already mentioned that this however happened after the Second World War – committed by Communists in general and not Slovenians with an idea to ethnically cleanse the Slovenian lands (the corpses also could have been killed anywhere in Yugoslavia, and that then dumped later in that area.) – the reason that most are Croat is because they were either victims because they were Ustasa, or Ustasa collaborators (clearly pointing out the insignificant and small number of the Slovenian Domobranci/Home Guard).

[LuftStuka]

I am quite sure that the Slovenes did not commit mass murders they don’t appear as aggressive and militant as the rest of Balkan nations. But I am sure they had to be some atrocities committed against the Jews. Hitler would not let them of the hook so easily. Some sources state that 40% of Slovene population was the members of the NSDAP. So it kind of does not make sense that that there had to be some Anti-Semitism. I remember reading about that camp it was first built and used in WW2 then it continued to be used communist government in the 1950 and 1960. I am sure Marcus wit his extensive knowledge and library will be able to check up. This is very interesting thread because there are so many cloudy stories surrounding the Balkans and who did what there during the WW2, that you just don’t know who to believe. Guess the fag of war still did not lift. Let keep this thread going it for our benefit.

I hear what you saying guys just still not 100% sure that there were no crimes committed seems very strange!

[Serbisches-Freiwilliger]

If every Balkan state commited crimes during ww2, it doesnt automaticly prove that the Slovenians did also. There were however crimes done in Slovenia but not BY Slovenes. Same thing as Macedonians.

Anyway, Slovenia is not even on the Balkans, a tottaly different structure of people lives there. To much "westernised" if compared to Serbs or Croats (not a bad thing at all...)
The biggest killings and atrocites were done in areas where different peoples lived, like in Bosnia (Serbs, Croats, Muslims), and todays Croatia (Serbs, Croats).

There were crimes done in Slovenia by partisans. Chetniks, Serbian Volunteers, Blue Gardists were mass executed in Slovenia at the end of the war after they were given to Tito by the Allies.

[sLOVEne]

Luftstuka, I don’t think there has been any sort of brutality inflicted against other peoples simply because of their ethnicity by Slovenes – ever.

One reason is because Slovenia is very homogenous – since much of the mixed areas are in East Italy (Friuli-Venezia Giulia – 100,000 Slovenes there), and south Austria (around Klagenfurt, Villach and Gratz – about 80,000 Slovenes (75% smaller than before ww2 – either by assimilation because of the Nazi “inferior”/ “superior” regime or dead) There is no one we could actually ethnically cleanse inside Slovenia, and there was never a movement for a Greater Slovenia to annex away those two areas with significant Slovenian populations because we are numerically quite weak (2 million inside Slovenia) comparing to our neighbors.

Sure guerilla warfare could be effective, but that’s just not our style. Once you’re oppressed by a foreign power, you know how if feels to be mistreated. Maybe we just didn’t want to oppress others. I don’t know, but I think Slovenians are peaceful people. That’s why we have the word ‘love’ in Slovenia.

So, Luftstuka, you’re talking complete and utter nonsense when it comes to your posts and Jews in Slovenia. Let me cite from the official Jewish community in Slovenia (so this definitely is not biased – so don’t claim it. I’m also surprised there is one, because in a recent survey it showed that there are only 11 Jews in Slovenia):
“On the 18th of March 1496 the Emperor Maximilian of the Austrian Empire issued an edict of eviction for the Jews of Carinthia and Styria.”
“The pressures continued and even mounted during the next few years and the eviction was extended to the Duchy of Carniola in 1515. Most of the evicted Jews settled in neighbouring Hapsburg lands like Italy and western Hungary”
“additional order was issued by Emperor Francis II. which forbade Jewish settlement in Carniola in 1817. Settlement in the above mentioned areas was very limited in the 18., 19. and 20. centuries.”

Now during world war 2: “About 4500 Jews lived in Slovene areas before 1941. The vast majority of Slovene Jewry perished in the crematoria of Auschwitz and other extermination camps. German forces kept deporting Slovene Jewry until 1945. There is a little known fact that Italian forces in western and southern Slovenia also deported numerous Jewish families to Italian concentration camps.” (you see in bold “German forces”, you also notice that they were mostly exterminated in Italian camps outside of Slovenia)

If you want me to continue, I can. But you get the picture. Slovenes didn’t have an agenda to kill Jews.

[sLOVEne]

If every Balkan state commited crimes during ww2, it doesnt automaticly prove that the Slovenians did also. There were however crimes done in Slovenia but not BY Slovenes. Same thing as Macedonians.

Anyway, Slovenia is not even on the Balkans, a tottaly different structure of people lives there. To much "westernised" if compared to Serbs or Croats (not a bad thing at all...)

Serbisches-Freiwilliger,
Thanks for the post, and concerning Slovenia and the Balkans. There are many people in Slovenia that don’t consider themselves, or do not want (more true) to consider themselves as a part of the Balkan. It’s the word ‘Balkan’, as soon as one mentions it, thoughts of violence and hatred come to mind – no seriously, does it remind people of beautiful beaches, untouched mountains, pristine valleys? – probably not. It doesn’t exactly help tourism.
Then again, even if you type Slovenia in Encarta, it mentions Slovenia as part of the Balkans. You read history books, and Slovenia is part of the Balkan peninsula. You hear the weather on the TV or news, and Slovenia is a part of the Balkans. You mention our language, a south Slavic tongue, and people group us into the Balkans. Its probably because we used to be a part of Yugoslavia, and were tied with the peoples that belonged to it, and the neighbours that surrounded it. Maybe now that we’ll join the EU, things will change.

[Benoit Douville]

Slovene,

That's interesting because I have always considered Slovenia to be part of the Balkans but maybe the mentality will change in the future.

Regards

[sLOVEne]

Slovene,

That's interesting because I have always considered Slovenia to be part of the Balkans but maybe the mentality will change in the future.

Regards

My home is where my home is. Just the word ‘Balkans’ and its recent history and headlines have really given it a bad name (actually history as well). If I were to say to someone in the U.S, “I come from the Balkans!” I’m sure that I wouldn’t get a “oh awesome dude!” If I tell them I’m from Slovenia, they’d say “where the heck is that, Czechoslovakia?” which leads to the answer, the Balkans. I can imagine seeing their face cringe with agony. Maybe if people wouldn’t see it as something filled with violence, then more Slovenes would be happy to identify themselves with it. And stop looking constantly west, as Serbisches-Freiwilliger pointed out.

[Dan]

Don't worry, most Americans have never heard of the Balkans. I like your posts, though.

[sLOVEne]

That’s a relief, and thanks for the comment.

Here is a work of art (if anyonés interested), belonging to the Slovenian National Liberation Combat. Art such as this at the time documents the partisan life and fight, from images of combatants and commanders, wounded persons, scenes of fighting, partisan hospitals, printing houses, to descriptions of occupier crimes, robberies, and arsons.

[sLOVEne]

Kocjo,

Well it depends what someone considers to be a war crime. For instance the execution of prisoners, or the killings of catholic priests and leaders does appear to be a war crime. But I guess its better to look at the circumstances when these things occurred and why.

So, personally I see the partisans as liberators (during the war). The partisans did not show mercy towards prisoners because the Germans did not show mercy to their prisoners. The reason that the partisans are innocent in this, is that the Germans are the occupiers while the partisans are the defenders. there wouldn’t be any partisans if Slovenia hadn’t we been divided between our neighbours. After the war, the case is different & the communists (surely some Slovenes in there) are definitely guilty of mass murders of the Domobranci / Home Guard. You mention during the war that catholic leaders were killed by the partisans, but this was surely done because they were collaborating with the enemy. For example in Croatia, the Ustase were at many times led by Catholic priests in the guerrilla war / among other leaders of course. But I know that’s slightly different than in Slovenia’s case, because the Ustase also planned to convert many Orthodox Serbs to Catholicism.

I didn’t realise that the number of the Home Guard was in excess of 15,000 – serves me for using old books. (I was under the impression that there were 10,000 fighters, and roughly 5000 Slovenes that collaborated). But weren’t many of the Domobranci / Home Guard, together with the Vaske straze / Village Guard, as well as other small factions – full of young boys aged around 16? Did they really know what they were fighting for? I really don’t think that during the war, Slovenes should be guilty of war crimes, there was never any large and organised movement were Slovenes would gather the Jews as Luftstuka pointed out earlier, or expel a minority because of their origin, because we were occupied and we were the minority.

Maybe you disagree