Slovene warcrimes

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Post by Marcus » 21 Apr 2003 17:26

sLOVEne wrote:Well it depends what someone considers to be a war crime. For instance the execution of prisoners, or the killings of catholic priests and leaders does appear to be a war crime. But I guess its better to look at the circumstances when these things occurred and why.
Actually "why" is totally irrelevant, it does not matter if you are on the side of "good" or "evil", a warcrime is still a warcrime.

/Marcus

User avatar
sLOVEne
Member
Posts: 231
Joined: 20 Jan 2003 15:36
Location: Brussels, Belgium

Post by sLOVEne » 21 Apr 2003 17:40

Marcus Wendel wrote:
sLOVEne wrote:Well it depends what someone considers to be a war crime. For instance the execution of prisoners, or the killings of catholic priests and leaders does appear to be a war crime. But I guess its better to look at the circumstances when these things occurred and why.
Actually "why" is totally irrelevant, it does not matter if you are on the side of "good" or "evil", a warcrime is still a warcrime.

/Marcus
Well actually, I think, in this case it does. For instance, because the Germans had come into Slovenia it is only a natural reaction to fight for one’s freedom. It’s a defensive reaction, and not a war crime. Say the Germans execute a couple of partisans, would it not be logical to do the same to them. No one wins wars by looking ‘soft’, you have to be as ruthless as the enemy. After all, Germans were executing not only captured prisoners, but also killing women and children, as well as deporting Jews out of Slovenia to concentration camps.

Partisans didn’t have the man power, the equipment nor the organization that the Germans possessed – so it was much harder to keep prisoners of war. Better to execute one, rather than the possibility of him escaping and giving away valuable information that may jeopardise their cause.

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Post by Marcus » 21 Apr 2003 17:44

sLOVEne wrote:Well actually, I think, in this case it does. For instance, because the Germans had come into Slovenia it is only a natural reaction to fight for one’s freedom. It’s a defensive reaction, and not a war crime.
Using your logic, a defender would be allowed to use any methods (murdering civilians, using biological weapons etc etc) and it would not a warcrime, simply because it was used by a defender, an attacker doing the exact same thing would be guilty of a warcime. Is that your view?
(And try to see beyond the case of Slovenia during WW2)

/Marcus

User avatar
sLOVEne
Member
Posts: 231
Joined: 20 Jan 2003 15:36
Location: Brussels, Belgium

Post by sLOVEne » 21 Apr 2003 18:00

Marcus Wendel wrote:
sLOVEne wrote:Well actually, I think, in this case it does. For instance, because the Germans had come into Slovenia it is only a natural reaction to fight for one’s freedom. It’s a defensive reaction, and not a war crime.
Using your logic, a defender would be allowed to use any methods (murdering civilians, using biological weapons etc etc) and it would not a warcrime, simply because it was used by a defender, an attacker doing the exact same thing would be guilty of a warcime. Is that your view?
(And try to see beyond the case of Slovenia during WW2)

/Marcus
Marcus I was pointing out in the case of Slovenia during the ww2 specifically. I wasn’t redefining the definition of a war crime. The above sentence you took out appears illogical, but the rest of the post contains reason why I say that the execution of a prisoner is “dandy”, since its the greater good that comes out of it. The prisoner slows down the efficiency of the group, jeopardises missions, consumes the already scarce food, can give away the positions, ect. The German soldiers shouldn’t expect to be spared, after they conquer a peoples, rape and kill civilians, do not spare the lives of children, even organize trains to kill Jews efficiently…well, maybe it’s a matter of opinion.

User avatar
sLOVEne
Member
Posts: 231
Joined: 20 Jan 2003 15:36
Location: Brussels, Belgium

Post by sLOVEne » 21 Apr 2003 18:01

Kocjo wrote:When I was a child; I was allways thinking veey high of Partisans, but at the age of 7, grad-father told me post-war crimes of Communist, so now I don't apriciate any communist's.
I agree fully, there is a big difference during and after the war.

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Post by Marcus » 21 Apr 2003 18:03

sLOVEne wrote:I say that the execution of a prisoner is “dandy”, since its the greater good that comes out of it. The prisoner slows down the efficiency of the group, jeopardises missions, consumes the already scarce food, can give away the positions, ect.
So if a German-sponsored unit in Slovenia during WW2 captures Slovenian partisans, it would, in your view, be prefectly ok for them (and not in any way a warcrime) to kill them if they "slows down the efficiency of the group, jeopardises missions, consumes the already scarce food, can give away the positions, ect." ?

/Marcus

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Post by Marcus » 21 Apr 2003 18:05

Please post the non-warcrimes related info & images on the Slovenian forces etc in the "Germany's Allies & Foreign Volunteers" section, thanks.

/Marcus

User avatar
sLOVEne
Member
Posts: 231
Joined: 20 Jan 2003 15:36
Location: Brussels, Belgium

Post by sLOVEne » 21 Apr 2003 18:19

Marcus Wendel wrote:
sLOVEne wrote:I say that the execution of a prisoner is “dandy”, since its the greater good that comes out of it. The prisoner slows down the efficiency of the group, jeopardises missions, consumes the already scarce food, can give away the positions, ect.
So if a German-sponsored unit in Slovenia during WW2 captures Slovenian partisans, it would, in your view, be prefectly ok for them (and not in any way a warcrime) to kill them if they "slows down the efficiency of the group, jeopardises missions, consumes the already scarce food, can give away the positions, ect." ?

/Marcus
Marcus, I’m referring to the German occupier, that they could expect what was going to come because of their actions. The matter of the Domobranci, or any other small Slovenian group, is that they are not the occupier. None of the small militia groups in Slovenia didn’t have a plan to exactly exterminate every Jew, they also didn’t agree with Hitler’s “make this country German again”. I see a difference when a foreigner occupies and annexes a part of Slovenia, rather the prisoners of a small home grown militia.

User avatar
K.Kocjancic
Member
Posts: 6788
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 19:57
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia

Post by K.Kocjancic » 21 Apr 2003 18:30

What about the hostages, that were executed by Germans?
These are war-crimes!! :x :x

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Post by Marcus » 21 Apr 2003 18:34

Kocjo wrote:What about the hostages, that were executed by Germans?
These are war-crimes!! :x :x
Yes, of course, I don't think anyone is denying that.

/Marcus

Krasnaya Zvezda
Member
Posts: 1157
Joined: 27 Dec 2002 17:45
Location: Moscow

Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 22 Apr 2003 03:33

Hm, Marcus are you talking here from a moral standpoint (sort of a Christian stuff, slap me on the cheek and I will turn the other, the opposite of an eye for an eye is the only effective way against the German ocupator) or legal definitions of what a war crime is, in this case the war crimes of Slovenian partizans?

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Post by Marcus » 22 Apr 2003 15:22

Krasnaya Zvezda,

I must admit to begin somewhat ignorant in regard to the legal definitions during this period, so I was interested in what he thought was "right" and "wrong" so to speak, in particular if this "right" and "wrong" was different depeding on who did the act in question.

/Marcus

Krasnaya Zvezda
Member
Posts: 1157
Joined: 27 Dec 2002 17:45
Location: Moscow

Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 22 Apr 2003 16:52

Marcus Wendel wrote:Krasnaya Zvezda,

I must admit to begin somewhat ignorant in regard to the legal definitions during this period, so I was interested in what he thought was "right" and "wrong" so to speak, in particular if this "right" and "wrong" was different depeding on who did the act in question.

/Marcus
Yes. Thanks for the answer. I believe the critical part had to be distinguished between what the legal definition and moral aspects, otherwise we are going in circle. So, if you want to discuss what was amoral or moral, as you said it, it depends on who did the act. We will not reach a conclusion in that case. If you ask me, for me the biggest crime was the war itself. Whoever started it committed the biggest crime, the rest is consequence of that act that we can debate on, but everything followed from this act that is the most criminal of all.

As far as the legal aspect , until 1949 there was no protections for the partisans and any guerrila sort to speak, that is if one is caught he could be killed in the most brutal way without legal consequences. That was German excuse for treating the partisans so badly. Does this means that one should not take arms than and fight the ocupator (since it is illegal?) . Of course not. But it also means that if conventions (laws) are not applied to certain person and this person suffers because of it, that person can not be expected to reinforce the same laws himself. Than weather killing a German soldier brutally or not and mistreating him in anyway, remains in the realm of the individual feelings and personal believes committing the act. It is definitely wrong for us to judge and claim this was wrong what the partisans did or not, one thing we can clearly conclude is that starting the war by Germany was wrong. All the best to everyone.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23712
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 22 Apr 2003 19:06

Krasnaya Zvezda -- You said: "As far as the legal aspect , until 1949 there was no protections for the partisans and any guerrila sort to speak, that is if one is caught he could be killed in the most brutal way without legal consequences. That was German excuse for treating the partisans so badly."

I don't think that's quite true as a legal proposition. The treatment of partisans was governed by the provisions of Articles 1 and 2 of the the Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907, which can be found at:

Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, Articles 1 and 2:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawof ... 2.htm#art1 (1899)
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawof ... 4.htm#art1 (1907)

and the Geneva convention of 1929, on-line at:

Geneva Convention of 1929
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawof ... 2.htm#art1

The problem was that the German government in WWII did not respect any of these provisions, hence there were a series of warcrimes trials to punish the culprits.

Krasnaya Zvezda
Member
Posts: 1157
Joined: 27 Dec 2002 17:45
Location: Moscow

Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 23 Apr 2003 03:57

David you are right fully. Thanks for correcting me.

However it still holds that Geneva convention was not applied to partisans. Remeber that part of Slovenia was directly annexed to Germany. Every country considers armed groups not part of its armed forces or police that are not under the command of goverment authority - illegal. Germans used the word bandits to describe this groups. I guess word terrorist was not inveted. Distinction can be blurred , even today we have the example where US does not quite recognizes Talibans.


Interesting how Hitler described them:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/commando2.htm

"Yet this form of war is completely without danger for the adversary. Since he lands his sabotage troops in uniform but at the same time supplies them with civilian clothes, they can, according to need, appear as soldiers or civilians. While they themselves have orders to ruthlessly remove any German soldiers or even natives who get in their way, they run no danger of suffering really serious losses in their operations, since at the worst, if they are caught, they can immediately surrender and thus believe that they will theoretically fall under the provisions of the Geneva Convention. There is no doubt, however, that this is a misuse in the worst form of the Geneva agreements, especially since part of these elements are even criminals, liberated from prisons, who can rehabilitate themselves through these activities. England and America will therefore always be able to find volunteers for this kind of warfare, as long as they can truthfully assure them that there is no danger of loss of life for them. At worst, all they have to do is to successfully commit their attack on people, traffic installations, or other installations, and upon being encountered by the enemy, to capitulate.



If the German conduct of war is not to suffer grievous damage through these incidents, it must be made clear to the adversary that all sabotage troops will be exterminated, without exception, to the last man.



This means that their chance of escaping with their lives is nil. Under no circumstances can it be permitted, therefore, that a dynamite, sabotage, or terrorist unit simply allows itself to be captured, expecting to be treated according to rules of the Geneva Convention. It must under all circumstances be ruthlessly exterminated. "


More info on the treatment of Yu and particularly Slovenian partisans by the German soldatesque can be found in Soviet documents, presented as evidence in the trials after the WWII. This is important as to understand weather partisans response is really a violation of Hague convention. I mean if the superior side that is responsible for establishing law and order (remeber Slovenia was occupied) does not respect law how can anybody else be expected to follow the same?


Exhibit USSR 305 (Yu-68). This is an excerpt from the report by the Yugoslav State Commission concerning the determination of crimes committed by the occupational forces and their accomplices. The State Commission reports that there is at its disposal a secret report by Lieutenant-General Hoesslin, the officer in command of the 188th Mountain Infantry Reserve Division, numbered 9070/44. The report is of great importance because of the following considerations which I will explain to the Tribunal in the terms of this document. I quote:-
"Although the report refers to our divisions, brigades, and artillery battalions under their proper names and proper numbers - in cases of military engagements - our whole army is called in this report by the general name of 'bandits,' and for the very simple reason that by so doing they are attempting to divest us of the rights of belligerents, they themselves assuming the right to shoot prisoners of war, to kill the wounded and to have a pretext for employing repressive measures against the peaceful non-combatant population, allegedly because of their assistance to the 'bandits.' Lieutenant-General Hoesslin admits that the combat group of Colonel Christel after 'a night engagement with weak bandit forces' - these are the precise words of the report - burnt down Laskovitz, Lazna, Lokva and Cepovan, and destroyed a hospital. In General Hoesslin's report it is further stated that the division, together with the 3rd Brandenburg Regiment and other German and Police units, participated in 'a free-for-all manhunt for bandits in the neighbourhood of Klan' (Operation 'Ernst')...."
Exhibit USSR 132 (Yu-67). This represents an excerpt from the directives issued by Major-General Kuebler concerning the conduct of troops in action, an extract which was certified by the Yugoslav State Commission. I read these excerpts into the record:-


"Secret;
118th Jaeger Division; ABT Ic
Br. B. No. 1418/43 secret
Div. Hqs., 12.5.1943
for the Conduct of Troops in Action.

2. Prisoners:

Anyone having participated openly in the fight against the German Armed Forces and having been taken prisoner is to be shot after interrogation."
Exhibit USSR 304 (Yu-56) the excerpt from Memorandum No. 6 of the Yugoslav State Commission for the determination of the crimes committed by the occupational forces and by their accomplices.

In the last paragraph of this excerpt is stated as follows :-
"On 3rd May, 1945, the Germans brought from one of the Partisan hospitals thirty-five manacled patients and hospital orderlies. Ten of the patients who were unable to walk were stood against the wall and shot. Their bodies were piled in a heap, covered with wood and set on fire."
As Exhibit USSR 307 (Yu-73):
"On 5th June, 1944, Hitler's criminals captured two soldiers of the Yugoslav Liberation Army and the Slovene Partisan Detachments. They brought them to Razori, where they cut off their noses and ears with bayonets, gouged out their eyes and then asked then [sic] if they could see their comrade Tito. Thereupon they assembled the peasants and beheaded the two victims in their presence.... They then placed both the heads on a table."
In accordance with their usual practice of photographing the bodies of their victims, the fascists then took photographs, and, as is further stated in the extract quoted by me:-
"Later, in the course of the fighting, the photographs were found on a fallen German. From this it can be seen that they confirm the incident at Razori which has been described above."
These pictures will be submitted to the Tribunal together with other Yugoslav photographic evidence.

Under Document USSR-65/a (Yu-69) an announcement signed by the Commander of the S.S. and Police Detachments of the 18th military district, S.S. Gruppenfuehrer and Lieutenant General of Police, Roesener. You will thus be able to see that the warriors of the Yugoslav Armed Forces who were taken prisoner were either hanged or shot.
"In view of various clashes between police detachments and Yugoslav units..."

"Eighteen bandits were recently killed in action and a considerable number taken prisoner. The following bandits, who were among the prisoners, were publicly hanged at Stein on 30th June, 1942.... "
This statement is followed by the names of eight Yugoslav soldiers between the ages of twenty-one and forty years. I will not read this list into the record. Exhibit USSR 36 (your Page 339), the first paragraph from the bottom reads:-





"We can find identical evidence in a collection of official notes on the staff conferences of Gauleiter Ueberreiter... Thus, for example, it is stated in the minutes of the conference held on 23rd March, 1942:

"Fifteen bandits were executed in Maribor today."
I omit some sentences from the minutes of the conference held on 27th July, 1942:-
"Many bandits have been shot recently."
The minutes of the conference of 1st December, 1942, contain a passage:-
"Since the bandits started their activities in July, 1941, 164 have been shot by the uniformed police and 1,043 by special procedure (Sonderverfahren)."
The minutes of 25th January, 1943, state:-
"The number of guerilla troops liquidated on 8th January, 1942, by the Security Police and the uniformed branch is eighty-six, including wounded and prisoners, seventy-seven of whom were killed."
Such notes can be found in almost every one of the minutes of these conferences held by Ueberreiter.


Now, what and whose behavior is wrong here? Can anyone accuse the partisans of war crimes and under what pretense? Is it OK to demand the impossible from people?

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”