Red Army rape row

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David C. Clarke
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#31

Post by David C. Clarke » 12 Oct 2003, 17:06

Here's what I've never quite understood about this issue:

If the Higher Commands of the Red Army pre-planned rapes of German women, how is it that there are so many documented instances of Soviet officers summarily executing their soldiers for rape?

Regards,
~D, the EviL

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Benoit Douville
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#32

Post by Benoit Douville » 13 Oct 2003, 00:42

A Soviet journalist did indeed encourage the rape of German women, his name is Ilya Ehrenbourg. I know that you don't like Beevor but you can find a lot of info in his book "Berlin The Downfall" regarding the massive rapes of German women.

Regards


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Xavier
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#33

Post by Xavier » 13 Oct 2003, 00:53

Jacques:

from the very first post of this thread:
Professor Oleg Rzheshevsky, head of war history at the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow, told BBC News Online these were grave accusations which were not supported by documentary evidence.
Professor Rzheshevsky, who admitted he had only read excerpts and had not seen the book's source notes, said: "Information on the number of raped and killed women is based on victims' and witnesses' accounts, some excerpts from interviews and other such sources
."

I guess in 1944/45 there were no reporters and papparazzi running amok with cameras taking pictures of the rapes, the victims recollections should be enough proof. also, do not expect to hear a now 70/80 year old woman say she was raped then. enough shame.

Xavier
the link scrounger

Michael Kenny
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#34

Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Oct 2003, 01:27

Quote:

."A Soviet journalist did indeed encourage the rape of German women, his name is Ilya Ehrenbourg"


So post the quote.

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John W
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#35

Post by John W » 13 Oct 2003, 02:32

Two things:
Benoit Douville wrote:A Soviet journalist did indeed encourage the rape of German women, his name is Ilya Ehrenbourg.
A journalist? There is a supposed "Indian" journalist who says that all Muslims must be exterminated. Does this make it official policy?
Benoit Douville wrote:I know that you don't like Beevor but you can find a lot of info in his book "Berlin The Downfall" regarding the massive rapes of German women.
Liking Beevor or not doesn't count in the picture. Yes, there were rapes commited. The question is was it official policy (i.e. pre-mediatated/pre-planned)? Did Beevor conclude so?

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#36

Post by milos » 13 Oct 2003, 11:26

The things posted about Ilya Ehrenburg are mostly true, but he was dismissed in February 1945. and the propaganda tone was downplayed since. In truth, his rants were no different then the American ones against the Japanese. The question is, why did they fall on the Red Army soldier? Education is not the reason. The American soldier did not buy the propaganda because hardly any of them suffered any personal loss due to the Japanese, at best it was the case of brother/cousin killed in action while serving on another ship/unit. None of them had their entire families wiped out, as was frequently the case in the Red Army. Ehrenburg knew of this and shamelessly played on the men's grief over such a loss.

Also, consider the fact that rapes were by and large not commited by Soviet front line troops but those coming a day or two after them which consisted mostly of Gulag inmates and various criminal elements.

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#37

Post by michael mills » 13 Oct 2003, 14:43

The things posted about Ilya Ehrenburg are mostly true, but he was dismissed in February 1945. and the propaganda tone was downplayed since.
Actually, the change came in April. It was at that point that Stalin put a stop to Ehrenburg's revenge propaganda, and it is from then that the Soviet Government orders to put a stop to the mistreatment of the German civilian population date.

The reason for the change is clear. The Soviet Union had won its war with Germany, and the time had come to lay the foundations for a satellite Germany that would be the Soviet Union's provider of high-quality products. The policy of permitting and encouraging mass terror against the German population, which had began at the end of 1944 with the entry of Soviet forces into East Prussia, had served its purpose; now it had become counter-productive, so it was discontinued.

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Benoit Douville
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#38

Post by Benoit Douville » 13 Oct 2003, 22:34

I am not saying it was the official policy what Ehrenbourg wrote, it was propaganda like the other member mentionned.

BTW, where is Das Reich located :wink:

Regards

Ostuf Charlemagne
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#39

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 14 Oct 2003, 06:53

Roberto,i think we may say that Streicher called to the elimination of the jews...not of the russians.For your knowledge ,it existed a ''bund'' of russian emigrees inside the NSDAP long before the war,russians were even accepted within the waffen-SS and many Nazis high ranking like Rosenberg didn't look at them as ''racially inferior'', ( and not to talk about generals like Von Pannwitz,Kuestring and others ) , even if some stupid narrow minded NS functionaries (like Koch) throwed aways all possibilities of collaboration with the russian people.

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#40

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 14 Oct 2003, 06:56

John and Douville : Ehrenburg wasn't a journalist ...he was a ''poet'' (?!),and above all has been a political NKVD commissary in Spain,too...
where he murdered people by his own hands.

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John W
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#41

Post by John W » 14 Oct 2003, 08:30

All I am saying is that I still don't see anything that could be conclusively said that "Yes! The Soviets officially wanted the Red Army to conduct gang and mass rapes against the German populace". To quote the writings of poets doesn't count. We need documents (such as the fabled "Commisar Order" by the Nazis) to pin such blame on the Soviet command. Question, do such documents exist?

Milos brings out some nice points. Also, I'm quite sure that if the Soviets indoctrinated their troops (and we all know how good the Soviets were at indoctrination, don't we?) to commit mass rapes etc., the toll would have been much higher than what it turned out to be.

Personally speaking, I really wouldn't expect much if an army of millions descended on a city, after 4 years of the bloodiest of battles, after seeing their homeland plundered and it's ppoulation brutalised. Not that I am condoning their behaviour though.

Ostuf: I know nothing of this. Could you share some more information?

By the way: "Das Reich" is currently "New York"

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#42

Post by asturwaffen » 14 Oct 2003, 13:42

Evidently war crimenes was not made only by the losing side.

Number of prisoners Germans captured in Stalingrad????

Number of that they returned to Germany????

.................... and thousand examples more.

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John W
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#43

Post by John W » 14 Oct 2003, 22:55

David C. Clarke wrote:Here's what I've never quite understood about this issue:

If the Higher Commands of the Red Army pre-planned rapes of German women, how is it that there are so many documented instances of Soviet officers summarily executing their soldiers for rape?

Regards,
~D, the EviL
Komrade Komissar:

Were there similar document showing executions of German soldiers? And here I wish to clarify the point:

I want to know if the soldier was executed for provivions provided for in the Military code (for example, for commiting an offence punishable with execution). My point being, I want to know if he was arrested/shot for commiting a rape... not for violating the Race Laws (for example)

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#44

Post by Caldric » 14 Oct 2003, 23:23

asturwaffen wrote:Evidently war crimenes was not made only by the losing side.

Number of prisoners Germans captured in Stalingrad????

Number of that they returned to Germany????

.................... and thousand examples more.
5000 returned give or take, the vast majority died due to typhus and other ravages that ran rampant through the Stalingrad prisoners camps. The Soviets from all appearance tried to save them.

But then it is hard not to have war crimes and expect the Allies to remain boy scouts when you are fighting the likes of Germans or the Japanese. If the allies had fought and had policy like the Germans and Japanese then there would be no Germany nor Japan today. Should feel grateful.

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John W
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#45

Post by John W » 14 Oct 2003, 23:54

asturwaffen wrote:Evidently war crimenes was not made only by the losing side.
Actually I doubt there was any war where there was no war crime by either side. However, the difference is quite clear:

As in the case of the Nazis (especially with regards to the Ostfront), the warcrime was a matter of ... say "Official" policy. Not an exception mind you... official policy. And herein lies the difference.

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