Red Army rape row

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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#46

Post by David Thompson » 15 Oct 2003, 02:14

John W -- You asked of David C. Clarke,
Were there similar document showing executions of German soldiers? And here I wish to clarify the point:

I want to know if the soldier was executed for provivions provided for in the Military code (for example, for commiting an offence punishable with execution). My point being, I want to know if he was arrested/shot for commiting a rape... not for violating the Race Laws (for example)
There is a document showing a disinclination to punish German soldiers for such crimes, in the form of a Fuehrer Decree dated 13 May 1941. This document, originally posted by Roberto in the thread "Discipline & War Crimes: Germany v. USSR," at

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=25450

and available on-line at:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/USSR5.htm

reads as follows:
Fuehrer Decree, 13 May 1941, on Regulation of Conduct of
Troops in District "Barbarossa" and Handling of Opposition.

SECRET

The Fuehrer and Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces
Enclosure to 32/ 41 g. Kdos.Chefs. WR.
1st copy.

Fuehrer headquarters, 13 May 1941
[Initialed] "J 10/ 5"

TOP SECRET

Decree for the conduct of courts-martial in the district "BARBAROSSA" and for special measures of the troop [written in ink]

The armed forces court-martial serves primarily the purpose of maintaining discipline.

The great expanse of the Eastern theatre of operations, the kind of warfare necessitated on that account, and the peculiarity of the opponent present tasks to the armed forces courts-martial which they can accomplish during the course of the war and until the first pacification of the conquered territory-being short staffed-only if the court-martial is limited to its main task.

This is only possible if the troop itself defends itself ruthlessly against any threat by the enemy civil population.

Accordingly, the following is decreed for the territory "Barbarossa" (theater of operation, rear army area and area of the political administration):

Treatment of punishable offenses of enemy civilians

1. Punishable offenses committed by enemy civilians do not, until further notice, come any more under the jurisdiction of the courts-martial and the summary courts-martial.

2. Guerillas are to be killed ruthlessly by the troops in battle or during pursuit.

3. Also all other attacks of enemy civilians against the Wehrmacht, its members and employees are to be fought by the troops at the place of the attack with the most extreme means until annihilation of the attacker.

4. In cases where measures of this kind were neglected or not immediately possible, elements suspected of offense will be brought at once before an officer. He decides whether they are to be shot.

Against villages from which the Wehrmacht was insidiously and maliciously attacked, collective punitive measures by force will be carried out immediately under command of an officer with the rank of at least a battalion commander, if the circumstances do not permit an immediate identification of individual perpetrators.

5. It is expressly prohibited to hold suspected perpetrators in order to transfer them to the courts upon reinstitution of their jurisdiction over civilians.

6. The commanders in chief of the army groups can, in conjunction with the competent commanders of the air force and the navy, restore the Wehrmacht jurisdiction over civilians in districts which are sufficiently pacified.

For the area of the political administration this decree is issued through the chief of the high command of the Wehrmacht [marginal ink correction inked out: C-n-C of army in agreement with C-i-C of other branches.]

II

Treatment of punishable offenses of members of the Wehrmacht and its employees against the native population

1. For offenses committed by members of the Wehrmacht and its employees against enemy civilians, prosecution is not compulsory, not even if the offense is at the same time a military crime or violation. [emphasis added]

2. While judging offenses of this kind, it should be considered in every case, that the breakdown in 1918, the time of suffering of the German people after that, and the numerous blood sacrifices of the movement in the battle against national socialism were decidedly due to the Bolshevist influence, and that no German has forgotten this.

3. The judge examines therefore whether in such cases disciplinary action is justified or whether it is necessary to take legal steps. The judge orders the prosecution of offenses against civilians through court-martial only if it is considered necessary for the maintenance of discipline or the security of the troops. This applies, for instance, to cases of serious offenses which are based on sexual acts without restraint, which derive from a criminal tendency, or which are a sign that the troop threatens to mutiny. [emphasis added] The punishable offenses of destroying senselessly quarters as well as supplies or other captured goods to the disadvantage of the own troop should, as a rule, be judged as more leniently.

The order of the inquiry proceedings requires in every individual case the signature of the judge.

Extreme care must be exercised when judging the authenticity of the statements of enemy civilians. [emphasis added].

II

Responsibility of the troop commanders

The troop commanders are, within the sphere of their competence, personally responsible for the following :

1. that all officers of the units subordinated to them are very thoroughly and promptly instructed about the fundamentals of I,

2. that their legal advisors be promptly informed about these instructions and about the verbal statements with which the political intentions of the leadership had been explained to the commanders-in-chief,

3. that only such sentences will be confirmed which are in accord with the political intentions of the leadership.

IV

Protection of secret

After end of camouflage the decree is to be considered only as secret.

For the chief of the high command of the Wehrmacht-

Signed : KEITEL

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#47

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 15 Oct 2003, 03:49

Caldric : You obviously don't know about the plans Morgenthau and Kaufmann (jewish advisers of Roosevelt) wich called for economical destruction of Germany and even sterilization of all german males.

They weren't enforced because the cold war started.Germany was needed as a wall against a possible soviet offensive. So former nazis began to be pardonned, Gehlen,Klaus Barbie and others were recruited by the OSS/CIA and a new german army raised again.It's the cold war wich saved Germany. Japan is a story completely apart.

John: Do you mean the involvment of Ehrenburg in Spain ?


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#48

Post by John W » 15 Oct 2003, 05:18

Mr. Thompson: Yes. Thank you. I was aware of the document (which Roberto has posted many a time on this very forum). Yet, I thank you for taking your time to point it out with respect to this discussion. :)

It reaffirms my earlier beliefs and conclusions. Can I take it that a similar document didn't exist/was not created among the Soviets? A similar document, even uptil a regimental command level? (I doubt this though). Or is it the case that we can't totally conclude because certain sections of Soviet documents pertaining to this era are still classified? Also, I am curious:

Were the Soviets aware of such a document during the War? If so, how did they react to it? [If this is Off Topic, the knowledgeable people may PM me. Thank you]

Ostuf: Yes. I am curious about the actions of Ilya Ehrenburg in Spain. However, that should be a separate thread, I feel (unless the Moderator feels otherwise)

Regards

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#49

Post by Caldric » 15 Oct 2003, 05:39

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Caldric : You obviously don't know about the plans Morgenthau and Kaufmann (jewish advisers of Roosevelt) wich called for economical destruction of Germany and even sterilization of all german males.

They weren't enforced because the cold war started.Germany was needed as a wall against a possible soviet offensive. So former nazis began to be pardonned, Gehlen,Klaus Barbie and others were recruited by the OSS/CIA and a new german army raised again.It's the cold war wich saved Germany. Japan is a story completely apart.
They were not enforced because they were stupid plans to start with and everyone knew it. The cold war would not start for several years after the end of the war. The Morgenthau plan was never taken serious by anyone and the American public would not go for such an idiotic plan, not to even mention the UK.

I notice that you skip over Japan, in fact US aid to Japan also start well before the cold war and there was never a plan to destroy Japan as a nation, no more then Germany. In fact Japan is the perfect example of why "Jewish" conspiracy is just that conspiracy. Only thing the Morgenthau plan succeeded in was giving ammuntion to the revisionist.

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#50

Post by David Thompson » 15 Oct 2003, 16:52

Readers interested in the Morgenthau proposal and other aspects of US postwar policy in Germany may be interested in these threads:

US Policy and Nazi War Crimes 1943-1946
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=33403

For witness: Soviet containment and the Marshall Plan
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21292

JCS 1067 and US Military Government in Germany
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21690

Adenauer on the Morgenthau Plan and restitution to the Jews
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6067

While the Morgenthau proposal is off-topic on this thread, readers are invited to revive the discussion on one of these threads, or start a more specific, new thread.

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#51

Post by michael mills » 15 Oct 2003, 17:36

David Thompson wrote:
There is a document showing a disinclination to punish German soldiers for such crimes, in the form of a Fuehrer Decree dated 13 May 1941.
By "such crimes", I assume that David Thompson is referring to sexual crimes such as rape.

The document quoted actually says the opposite of what David Thompson believes, ie it does not show a disinclination to punish German soldiers for sexual crimes, but rather commands their punishment.

Although the document states " for offenses committed by members of the Wehrmacht and its employees against enemy civilians, prosecution is not compulsory, not even if the offense is at the same time a military crime or violation", it also clearly states:
The judge orders the prosecution of offenses against civilians through court-martial only if it is considered necessary for the maintenance of discipline or the security of the troops. This applies, for instance, to cases of serious offenses which are based on sexual acts without restraint, which derive from a criminal tendency, or which are a sign that the troop threatens to mutiny.
Rape is obviously a "serious offence based on sexual acts without restraint", accordingly it was one of those that were ordered to be prosecuted through court-martial.

Therefore, it would be totally wrong to interpret the so-called "Kriegsgerichtsbarkeitserlass", that is, Hitler's order providing indemnity for acts normally subject to prosecution, as giving licence to German troops to rape and pillage at will. In fact, it ordered the prosecution of acts that "derive from a criminal tendency", eg satisfaction of personal lusts, whether for sex or blood, or a base desire to enrich oneself.

What Hitler's order was designed to do was to give German soldiers indemnity for acts normally subject to prosecution that were carried out for a political reason and for the good of Germany, eg the summary execution of civilians believed to be hard-core supporters of Bolshevism. It was the equivalent of giving policemen free rein to shoot criminals in the street, which is a far cry from giving them the right to rape any woman who takes their fancy.

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#52

Post by David Thompson » 15 Oct 2003, 18:00

Michael -- You said:
The document quoted actually says the opposite of what David Thompson believes, ie it does not show a disinclination to punish German soldiers for sexual crimes, but rather commands their punishment.
I disagree. Here's why:

(1) In the first place, the Fuehrer Order gives the military judge discretion in his decision to prosecute crimes:
The judge examines therefore whether in such cases disciplinary action is justified or whether it is necessary to take legal steps.

A grant of discretion is not a command to punish.

(2) In the second place, the military judge is directed to order
the prosecution of offenses against civilians through court-martial only if it is considered necessary for the maintenance of discipline or the security of the troops.


As examples, the Fuehrer Order mentions:
serious offenses which are based on sexual acts without restraint, which derive from a criminal tendency, or which are a sign that the troop threatens to mutiny.


The scope of the discretion given to military judges by this order is very broad. He determines whether the sexual act is "without restraint." He determines whether the crime is derived "from a criminal tendency." He determines whether the offense is "a sign that the troop threatens to mutiny."

(3) In the third place, the Fuehrer Order tells the reviewing judge that:
Extreme care must be exercised when judging the authenticity of the statements of enemy civilians.

In other words, if the criminal raises the defense of consent to a charge of rape, unless the defendant's act was witnessed by fellow Germans who are willing to testify against him, and are also willing to testify that the defendant acted "without restraint" and as a result of a "criminal tendency," the military judge is to proceed with the prosecution only if he has exercised "extreme care when judging the authenticity of the statements of enemy civilians."

(4) The clear corollary of the Fuehrer Order is that the military judge who convicts a rapist on anything other than testimony by by German soldiers or civilians had better be prepared to defend his decision, since the Order reverses the ordinary presumptions by delineating a "no prosecution policy."

As a result of the Fuehrer Order, all of the following judicial findings were necessary to support a prosecution and conviction of a German soldier for the rape of a Russian civilian:

(a) The judge must show that the offense is "serious;"

(b) The judge must show that the rape is "without restraint;"

(c) The judge must show that the rape resulted from a "criminal tendency" of the defendant;

(d) The judge must show that he exercised "extreme care" in authenticating any testimony from Russian civilians; and

(e) The judge must show that the prosecution was either necessary for the maintenance of discipline or necessary for the security of the troops.

Under these circumstances it does not require an overactive imagination to see that many such crimes must necessarily have gone unpunished.

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#53

Post by michael mills » 16 Oct 2003, 02:31

David Thompson wrote:
As a result of the Fuehrer Order, all of the following judicial findings were necessary to support a prosecution and conviction of a German soldier for the rape of a Russian civilian:

(a) The judge must show that the offense is "serious;"

(b) The judge must show that the rape is "without restraint;"

(c) The judge must show that the rape resulted from a "criminal tendency" of the defendant;

(d) The judge must show that he exercised "extreme care" in authenticating any testimony from Russian civilians; and

(e) The judge must show that the prosecution was either necessary for the maintenance of discipline or necessary for the security of the troops.
If I had been a German commanding officer, I would have read the directive differently, as follows:

1. It is obligatory to prosecute all offences by German soldiers against civilians that threaten the maintenance of discipline or endanger the security of the troops.

2. A number of offences by their very nature fall into the above category; three examples of such offences considered particularly serious are:

(a) offences based on sexual acts without restraint;
(b) offences deriving from a criminal nature;
(c) offences that are a sign that the troop threatens to mutiny.

3. The crime of rape is by definition a serious offence based on sexual acts without restraint, and hence its prosecution is obligatory for the maintenance of discipline; it is not an offence where commanders have the discretion not to prosecute.

4. In investigating an accusation of rape, the statements of enemy civilians should not be automatically accepted, since such enemy civilians might be prompted to bring false allegations due to their animus against the German troops; however, there is no requirement to automatically reject them.

5. If an accusation of rape appears credible, after exercising extreme care in assessing the statements made by enemy civilians, eg if there is corroborating evidence, prosecution of the accused members of the German armed forces is obligatory for the purpose of maintenance if discipline.

I suppose that, as with all legal directives, different interpretations are possible, and the correct interpretation would only be established by testing in the courts.

However, the clear intention of the Hitler directive was to give German soldiers indemnity in advance for such acts as summary executions of enemy civilians considered to be a security risk, for example. It was not intended to give licence to rape and pillage at will.

An example might be drawn with the Indemnity Act passed by the South African Government after the suppression of the Communist-led Rand Rebellion in the early 1920s. In that suppression, the South African forces under the command of Smuts had carried out a number of summary executions of the insurgent (white) miners, and it was thought that those actions might be technically offences against the law. Accordingly, the Indemnity Act was passed to give Smuts and his men immunity from prosecution, provided that they had carried out the actions in good faith and in the fulfilment of Government orders.

Hitler was giving a similar indemnity in advance, and a similar provision applied; the actions of German soldiers had to be carried out in good faith and in pursuit of German Government policy, and not for persoanl motives of a criminal nature.

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#54

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 18 Oct 2003, 04:56

Caldric : Japaneses didn't kill jews...so their war crimes were looked as ''relatively'' insignifiants''.
What you said give me more arguments....

John: Well, i don't want to start a new thread....so far there is a spanish civil war section in this forum.... but i gone answer your question quickly.
(I mean ,non exhaustively ) :

during the spanish civil war,one jewish -soviet commissary invented the torture to suspend a prisonner inside an iron cage.The cage was so designed that,inside,the prisonner was unable to either stand up or sit,wich bring soon awful,deadly ,cramps....The spanish republicans called these cages the ''checas'' as a ''tribute'' tp the Tcheka,first name of what will become later the GPU-NKVD-MVD-KGB....
at the time of the spanish war ,it was the NKVD allready,but the fame of the Tcheka was ,in western countries,most known.
This ''ingenious'' soviet commissary is one of the following ,in fact the very first batch of soviet commissaries in Spain (Barcelona,to be accurate).... and all of them were jews,wich incluided Mr.Ehrenburg :

Ilhya Ehrenburg, Aralink Tupolyew , Leo Jacobson , Rose Skoblewsky ( a woman) , Moses Rosenberg , Keikin , Kolzow , Ginzburg , Friedlander , Miratvilles , Stillermann , Shapiro , Artadel , Antonov ( this one ''russified'' is name ) , Ovejenko , Bischitzky , Primakoff , Goreff and Samuel Fratkin.

( i have even,somewhere but i don't find it right now,the name of the russian ship which sailed from Odessa to Barcelona)

But most forum readers kept thinking that ''judeo-bolshevism'' was an invent of the nazi propaganda....

maybe the very Ihlya ehrenburg was the one who invented the checa-cage ?? I don't know. But ,yes,he had blood on his hands.Litterally.
So ,his calls for rape are nothing astonishing.

Here more names of foreign communists commissaries in Spain .
Some became famous after WW2..... :

-the french Andre Marty,future ''big'' of post-war franch communist party.
The spanish communists were even disgusted by his murders and tortures ,so they put him the aka of ''The butcher of Albacete''.

- Pierre Georges,the futur ''Colonel Fabien'' of french communist resistance.Secretary of Marty at Albacete.

- the italian Luigi Longo,commissary of italian communist btl.''Garibaldi'' and maybe - maybe - the one who pulled the trigger at Mussolini instead of famous communist Walter Audisio ( it's hard to start new threads - even if i agree with the explanations of Thompson about that....but here we have links not only with the spanish civil war ,but with judeo-bolshevism and now the death of Mussolini. One thing lead to the other one...)

- the yougoslavian Josip Broz,aka ''Tito''...( ands here i won't even mentionate that the Tito wich comebacked from Spain ,wasn't the same man that the one who went...some interesting facts lead to the theory that the NKVD murdered him in Spain and changed him from a russian sosy...Stalin said once after the war ,''Tito ? he is a fisherman from Odessa !'')

- Avsceko,officially ''consul of the USSR in Barcelona''....

- Willy Brandt ,future chancellor of West Germany....

- the french Etienne,former WW1 captain....

- Gaymann,french jew,former adviser of Paris mayor's office....

- Margarita Nielken (or Nelken,or Nelke ..i found 3 different ortographies)
Mexican.Active member of a mexican jewish circle,few years ago,she dynamited ,in Mexico,a catholic statue of Christ ( El Cristo delCubilete).In Spain she was a particularly bloodthirsty commissary.Traveled as a ''journalist''.
(Maybe Ehrenburg had the same ''cover'' ?)

- the son of the rabbi Levinger,commissary of the Lincoln Brigade.This unit has been raised with the collaboration of rabbi Louis Mann and Albert Einstein,the famous physician....and the logistical help of CIO Labor Union leaders Dubinsky, Hilman and Gold.
( Maybe our friend,the ''Evil Kommissar'',may enlight us with his souvenirs ?)
It is interesting to know that F.D: Roosevelt closed his eyes about the recruiting of this brigade ,BUT ordered the trial of the US Texaco Company ,guilty to have sold combustible to Franco,wich violated the official Roosevelt/ US Govt. policy of ''non-intervention''.

Don't get me wrong, John ; Judeo-bolshevism never existed ! :lol:



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Oleg Grigoryev
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#55

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 21 Oct 2003, 02:33

Ah them pesky joooooooooose in VChK… But are the actual numbers - let see according to the Krichevkiy “Jews in the VChK-OGPU apparatus in the 20s”. the Jewish “share” was ass-whooping 3.7% . Out of 42 senior interrogators (as of September 1918 ) in VChK – Latvians -14, Russians -13, Jews -8, Poles -7. Looks more like Latvio-Bolshevism to me… eh well. :D
btw Peters- the bloody is not included in the number above Image



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#56

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 21 Oct 2003, 03:58

But then it is hard not to have war crimes and expect the Allies to remain boy scouts when you are fighting the likes of Germans or the Japanese.
The Allies and Germans greatly respected each other in North Africa and committed no war crimes against each other. The likes of Germans? In Africa at least they don't seem to have behaved any differently than the British and Americans.
If the allies had fought and had policy like the Germans and Japanese then there would be no Germany nor Japan today. Should feel grateful.
Just because Germany started war, just because Germany committed the Holocaust and numerous other atrocities doesn't mean Germans who were bombed out of their homes and saw their families die in Allied air raids and were raped by Red Army soldiers have to sit down and shut up and "feel grateful". The men of the Red Army who raped German women and girls had no right to do what they did. Brutally attacking innocent civilians is not revenge, it's a crime and is not justifiable.

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Documented Red Army Rapes ex Red Army Rape Row

#57

Post by cavszabo » 17 Nov 2007, 16:16

I am not sure if I should start a new thread or rather continue in this one. The FAQ suggests that first comment on an existing thread, so I am.
Up till now, all the threads that I can find on Soviet rapes have been about Germany. However, I wish to add Hungary, as I have really a lot of information on Soviet crimes in Hungary and surrounding countries. As much of this material has not been translated, it is necessary to do so, and I will translate parts where relevant. I used to have access to the International Committee of he Red Cross Information network, and came across proof of the high numbers of Red Army rapes. I found the quotation again, here:

Ungváry, Krisztián. Budapest Ostroma (The Siege of Budapest) Corvina, 1998-2005 (Reworked edition).
He quotes the Swiss Embassy (I remember something similar from the ICRC) report including:

"The worst suffering of the Hungarian population is due to the rape of women. Rapes - affecting all age groups from ten to seventy are so common that very few women in Hungary have been spared."

That's one source. Another is my mother, Mrs Irma Szabó, who knew dozens of her friends who had been raped. If people have doubts, I will do a formal interview with her and put it up. Incidentally, I don't know any Hungarian lady over 75 who does not say the same thing.

The same Swiss report estimates 150,000 rapes in Budapest alone, out of 4,5 million women. However, these are actual, reported cases. Also, women were subjected to gang rape, so the actual number of rapes was quite a bit higher.
People have been demanding "proof of alleged Soviet atrocities" so I am starting a series of threads with proof.

Why we know so little is due to, inter alia, the following:
1. The total clampdown of information after 1945 in the East Bloc.
2. Killing of witnesses in GULAGS, torture rooms, political trials etc.
3. Massive intimidation, in which many people are still, now, frightened to talk.
4. A highly professional propaganda put out by Soviet AgitProp organisations including the editing out of history of anything criminal done by the Soviet and Hungarian Communists.
5. Western indifference, and sometimes, denial, of Soviet crimes.

Well, that's a small start....
Chris
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Member of the Southern African Freelance Association
Last edited by cavszabo on 18 Nov 2007, 02:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Documented Red Army Rapes was Red Army Rape Row

#58

Post by cavszabo » 17 Nov 2007, 16:48

While I am online anyway, I thought I would add another source. Although the article is in Hungarian, the author, Andrea Pető, wrote an abstract in English. Most of the information in the actual article is from Budapest military and civil medical sources, referring to the increase in venereal disease caused by all these rapes. I wish to call your attention to her references to the fears of the people involved, and not just the rape victims. I have noticed in all these threads where commentators deny or pooh-pooh Soviet rapes or other crimes, that they are unaware of just how terrified the population in question was. Besides, would you, as a woman, go around talking about how you were raped?

Online source:Történelmi Szemle 1999. 1-2. szám (Historical Review, 1992, Numbers 1, 2.) http://epa.oszk.hu/00600/00617/00003/ts ... andrea.htm

PASSING ARMY, LASTING TRAUMA
THE MEMORY OF SOVIET RAPE CASES IN BUDAPEST

Budapest and Vienna were liberated by the Red Army after severe fights in 1945 from the occupying German troops and its allies. The communist discourse on “justice of war” became immediately the dominant and it silenced the discourse on “justice in war”, namely what were those attrocities which were committed by the soldiers of the Red Army during the war. The social silence on different levels is the common element of narration of rape cases committed by the soldiers of the Red Army in Budapest and in Vienna. The silence itself became a historical fact and this paper analyses who and why generated this silence on the different levels of the narrative in different historical periods. The rapes committed by the soldiers of the Red Army are representing a special case of social memory: levels of different forgetting on individual and on social level. On the one hand everybody “privately” knew that there were rapes committed by the Soviet soldiers, but this historical fact became a part of the canonized historical knowledge very late. I will argue that the silence around the massive raping of the Soviet soldiers is not a case for amnesia, rather a “consiparcy of silence”. The paper analyses methodological problems of estimating numbers of rape cases and points out the possible causes of military sexual violence. After listing the consequences of the rape cases the paper summarizes its impact on memory. The paper argues that the real impact of the rapes committed by the Soviet soldiers was psychological. The juridical system of the occupied countries collapsed, the power vacuum did not promote submission of legal complains against the victorious occupying army. Crimes remained unpunished and untold. The uncertainity and powerlessness increased the feeling of subordination, since the Soviet army represented an independent legal entity on the soil of the occupied territory. A psychological pattern was formed: if we keep the silence we can pretend that “that” event has not happened at all and had a major impact on formation of new national identity.

More to come,
Chris

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#59

Post by cavszabo » 17 Nov 2007, 17:22

jacques wrote:do pics exist to confirm these atrocities ?
Firstly, there is no need to "confirm" the mass rapes. Look at my posts on "Documented Soviet rapes" for some concrete facts. As for photos, I don't think there would be any, because:

1. The average Soviet soldier was very poor, and was not likely to have a camera.
2. It is not usual for men committing deeds as dishonourable as rape to then go take pictures of themselves. Even to people brought up in a dehumanising system like Soviet Communism, there were always those who kept their decency!
3. The Soviet and East Bloc communist system was very effective at getting rid of evidence of its crimes.

But, look here and read the story of the girl first raped by five Soviet soldiers then murdered:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NilW70 ... #PPA129,M1

Chris

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#60

Post by cavszabo » 17 Nov 2007, 17:53

David C. Clarke wrote:Here's what I've never quite understood about this issue:

If the Higher Commands of the Red Army pre-planned rapes of German women, how is it that there are so many documented instances of Soviet officers summarily executing their soldiers for rape?

Regards,
~D, the EviL
Hi David,

I think here most folks are missing the point. I think the Soviet heirarchy was responsible for the actions of their underlings whether there was a policy or not. The rapes, lootings, occasional murders of those resisting above, had to have been well known to the STAVKA and NKVD leaderships, and of course the Politburo and Stalin. The fact that they did nothing to stop it, and gave the nod via their Politruks, who normally would have shot disobedient soldiers (discipline in the Red Army was brutal and swift). This "nod" from the top was enough, if added to the dehumanisation of the Soviet system, the war, the Nazi occupation as well.

I grew up among people who experienced these "Glories of Socialism", and I never heard anything about some secret plan to order rape or looting. I DO know there was a concrete order allowing 48 hours of "free robbery" to the soldiery. The theft of great art was not carried out by the common soldiers, however.

So, no big order, but Soviet leadership responsibility remains! My opinion.

Chris

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