Red Army rape row

[cavszabo]

Oh, and could you give a concrete instance of Soviet officers, political or not, shooting soldiers for rape before 1947? It would be most revealing to see if it coincided with the high incidence reported of VD among Red Army soldiers after those mass rapes.

Regardz
Chris

[Penn44]

Oh, and could you give a concrete instance of Soviet officers, political or not, shooting soldiers for rape before 1947? It would be most revealing to see if it coincided with the high incidence reported of VD among Red Army soldiers after those mass rapes.

Regardz
Chris

In regards to your question to David C. Clarke; he will not be able to answer as he is a "former member."

Penn44

.

[cavszabo]

Hi Penn44,

Oh, pity about that.
Chris

[David Thompson]

Our readers come here for sourced information, so please stay on topic and provide it.

[cavszabo]

And what is it I've just given you? My posts proving rape in Budapest and Vienna are not sourced information? You aren't being reasonable here. Can you give me sourced information - that I requested from David C. Clarke? I have reads LOTS of 'chit-chat' on this forum, that told me nothing. Now you pick on me, because I prove some Communist atrocities.
Please come out and say openly that I may not exchange information with Penn44 about a member I'm trying to answer, only to find out he's gone.

No man, this is not fair!

Chris

[cavszabo]

I now really understand now why Jewish folk get so upset about people who doubt the extent of their sufferings. That's how we victims of Communism feel when our horrors are pooh-poohed and attempts are made to silence us. So, like them, we tend to get a wee bit emotional. Hey we're human!
I wasn't going to put this up, as I felt I had made my point, but since David's entirely unreasonable post, which I believe is an attempt to shut me up, here is more evidence of Soviet Red Army rapes: Btw, I hope I'm wrong about David. But knowing the west, and knowing how they hate to hear about the crimes of their former allies, I wonder...
So:
From the book , 12 Days, the story of the Hungarian Revolution by Victor Sebestyén
http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/disp ... ew=excerpt

The Soviet Red Army rapes are mentioned in the book to help the reader understand the anger agains the Russian occupation:

For more than four decades, until Soviet troops left Hungary in 1990, almost nobody dared mention the taboo subject of the rapes committed by Russian soldiers in 1945. Many victims would not talk about it in their own families or with friends, let alone in public. It is still not known exactly how many women were raped, but a report made by the Swiss Embassy at the time, kept secret for many years, made a rough estimate of around 150,000 (from a female population of about 4.5 million). As a direct result the abortion laws were liberalised so that women could terminate unwanted pregnancies.

Women were attacked from day one of the liberation, as Christine Arnothy, a fifteen-year-old girl emerging with her sister Ilas from a Budapest cellar, recalled: 'The Russians were advancing and . . . at each house, a group of soldiers left the main body . . . One detachment entered our house. The officer who commanded it yelled at us to know if there were any Germans in the house. Several of us nodded in the direction of the staircase. The German was killed on the spot and Ilas, whom they had found close to this wounded man, was raped beside the still warm corpse. From the first instant we understood that what was happening was very different from what we had hoped.'

Alaine Polcz, in her early twenties at the war's end, had been a prisoner of the Germans. When the Russians reached her village in eastern Hungary she was effectively held prisoner again. Soviet troops had seen a picture of her with her husband. He was an officer in the Hungarian army, so they arrested her. She was held with a group of other women in a church presbytery near the front line, where she could hear constant gun fire. Years later she remembered her ordeal. 'Earlier on in the war I had seen those posters in Budapest showing a Russian soldier tearing a cruci
x off a woman's neck and I'd read pamphlets saying that the Russians did this and that. I didn't believe any of it. Propaganda I thought.' Soon she learned differently. She saw a young girl whose head was bleeding - a lock of her hair had been torn out. She was miserable and desperate.

'The Russians rode her,' said her mother. I didn't understand. 'With a bicycle?' I asked. The woman became angry. 'Are you a fool? Don't you know what they do to women?'

The next day Ms Polcz was in a room with her mother-in-law:

In came three Russians and told me to go with them. Now I knew exactly what they wanted. I put on my boots and tied my headscarf, then I untied it and tied it again, then I untied it once again to gain some time. As I stood there I heard something knocking on the door; it was the heels of my boots, I was trembling so much.

We stepped out into an L-shaped corridor. I started to attack them wildly . . . kicked and hit them with all my strength, but the next moment I was on the ground. No one made a sound. We fought in silence. They took me to the kitchen at the back of the house and as I tried to defend myself they flung me down so that I hit my head against the corner of the rubbish bin. It was made of hard wood.

I came round in the priest's big room. The window panes were broken, the windows were boarded up. There was nothing on the bed but bare boards on which I was lying. A Russian was on top of me . . . The feeling in my body hadn't returned with my consciousness; it was as if I was numb or gone cold . . . In that windowless unheated room I was naked from the waist down. I don't know how many Russians used me after that, or how many there had been before. As dawn was breaking they left me. I got up. I could only move with great difficulty. My head and my whole body ached. I was bleeding profusely. Over the next few days new troops arrived and I was pestered a lot.

She was infected with syphilis from the repeated rapes.

Chris

[Qvist]

I now really understand now why Jewish folk get so upset about people who doubt the extent of their sufferings. That's how we victims of Communism feel when our horrors are pooh-poohed and attempts are made to silence us. So, like them, we tend to get a wee bit emotional. Hey we're human!
I wasn't going to put this up, as I felt I had made my point, but since David's entirely unreasonable post, which I believe is an attempt to shut me up, here is more evidence of Soviet Red Army rapes: Btw, I hope I'm wrong about David. But knowing the west, and knowing how they hate to hear about the crimes of their former allies, I wonder...

This is completely out of line, and also completely off the mark. The attitude of this forum to the crimes of stalinism is made clear in the guidelines. Anyone willing to see it will have no problem finding proof of their enforcement, either in the discussions or in the form of banning of former members.

In the discussions, and especially in this section, we enforce rules of objective debate. We do this to facilitate quality discussion on issues that are often inherently controversial and emotionally charged, not to be mean to south africans, who, believe it or not, are subject to the same rules as everybody else. This requires everyone to be able to refrain from taking it personally when they are called to order, or worse still, as an affront to underlying values. If you think we are going to let ourselves be hijacked into letting you write your own rules by this diatribe, you will find that you are mistaken. Further sniping at legitimate moderating will be removed. You are heartily welcome to make any contributions you would like to the discussions, as long as they respect the guidelines. All this is for your information, and is not an invitation to further reflections on the matter on your part.

[Lit.]

And here is some more evidence from BBC documentary on this subject:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DYfZ_Hu7pWo

[Sergey]

And here is some more evidence from BBC documentary on this subject:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DYfZ_Hu7pWo

Deat Lit, does allegations about mass rapes commited by the Red army in Lithuania exist? Do you have examples of Lithuanian villages where 10% (or more) women were raped?

[DamnKimPhilby]

And here is some more evidence from BBC documentary on this subject:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DYfZ_Hu7pWo

Deat Lit, does allegations about mass rapes commited by the Red army in Lithuania exist? Do you have examples of Lithuanian villages where 10% (or more) women were raped?

Dear Sergey, no, because they usually killed their victims. Those that remained alive didn't want to talk about it, I think that is true everywhere and the two million victim figure for Germany is very conservative.

[Sergey]

And here is some more evidence from BBC documentary on this subject:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DYfZ_Hu7pWo

Deat Lit, does allegations about mass rapes commited by the Red army in Lithuania exist? Do you have examples of Lithuanian villages where 10% (or more) women were raped?

Dear Sergey, no, because they usually killed their victims. Those that remained alive didn't want to talk about it, I think that is true everywhere and the two million victim figure for Germany is very conservative.

Dear friend, estimates are estimates. They are not recorded events. My Mother-in-Law was born in 1928 and remember pretty well (along with her older brother) occupation of her (big) village Obukhovka near Dnepropetrovsk. She is not aware about cases of rape committed by German or Italian troops deployed in the village. But there was one case then Kalmyks (Budhist nation originated from Mongolia) who wore German military uniforms, gang raped some dozens of local girls.

I asked about similar cases. People live in villages for centuries and literally everybody knows everybody. Any mass rape or mass killing of civilian population would be remembered. Are you aware about any case of mass rape (or mass killing) in Lithuania committed by Soviet soldiers during WW2? If not they say plainly - no. If yes then inform us, please.

I ask about similar cases of mass rapes (well recorded of course) in Germany, Hungary, in other countries.

Regards.

[cavszabo]

Sergey wrote

I ask about similar cases of mass rapes (well recorded of course) in Germany, Hungary, in other countries.

Regards.


Hi,

I am surprised at your question. I have put up a number of well-documented figures specifically for Hungary, where the number of women that can be proven, according to medical and police case files, is 200 000.

Please see my posts in this regard on this thread. It's all there.
Regards,
Chris

[DamnKimPhilby]

[quote="cavszabo"]DamnKimPhilby wrote

I ask about similar cases of mass rapes (well recorded of course) in Germany, Hungary, in other countries.

Regards.


Dear Chris,

I didn't write this question. You are quoting the wrong person

[DamnKimPhilby]

And here is some more evidence from BBC documentary on this subject:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DYfZ_Hu7pWo

Deat Lit, does allegations about mass rapes commited by the Red army in Lithuania exist? Do you have examples of Lithuanian villages where 10% (or more) women were raped?

Dear Sergey, no, because they usually killed their victims. Those that remained alive didn't want to talk about it, I think that is true everywhere and the two million victim figure for Germany is very conservative.

Dear friend, estimates are estimates. They are not recorded events. My Mother-in-Law was born in 1928 and remember pretty well (along with her older brother) occupation of her (big) village Obukhovka near Dnepropetrovsk. She is not aware about cases of rape committed by German or Italian troops deployed in the village. But there was one case then Kalmyks (Budhist nation originated from Mongolia) who wore German military uniforms, gang raped some dozens of local girls.

I asked about similar cases. People live in villages for centuries and literally everybody knows everybody. Any mass rape or mass killing of civilian population would be remembered. Are you aware about any case of mass rape (or mass killing) in Lithuania committed by Soviet soldiers during WW2? If not they say plainly - no. If yes then inform us, please.

I ask about similar cases of mass rapes (well recorded of course) in Germany, Hungary, in other countries.

Regards.

Dear Sergey,

What happened in your mother's village perpetrated by the Kalmyks, occurred in villages and cities throughout Europe, but not of course done by Kalmyks, but by, alas, your countrymen. Individual cases exist everywhere and most places it's something not talked about to strangers. A compilation of rapes by the Red Army does exist in western historical archives, but I can't do your research for you.

We live in the free world now, and I am sure, you can access western scholarly papers. Perhaps, a better idea for your research would be to prove that the Red Army's reputation for rape, murder, pillaging, and looting is undeserved. Why don't you write a book about how kind and benevolent the red army was everywhere they went (and wouldn't leave).

[Sergey]

Alaine Polcz, in her early twenties at the war's end, had been a prisoner of the Germans.
...
In came three Russians and told me to go with them. Now I knew exactly what they wanted. I put on my boots and tied my headscarf, then I untied it and tied it again, then I untied it once again to gain some time. As I stood there I heard something knocking on the door; it was the heels of my boots, I was trembling so much.

We stepped out into an L-shaped corridor. I started to attack them wildly . . . kicked and hit them with all my strength, but the next moment I was on the ground. No one made a sound. We fought in silence. They took me to the kitchen at the back of the house and as I tried to defend myself they flung me down so that I hit my head against the corner of the rubbish bin. It was made of hard wood.

I came round in the priest's big room. The window panes were broken, the windows were boarded up. There was nothing on the bed but bare boards on which I was lying. A Russian was on top of me . . . The feeling in my body hadn't returned with my consciousness; it was as if I was numb or gone cold . . . In that windowless unheated room I was naked from the waist down. I don't know how many Russians used me after that, or how many there had been before. As dawn was breaking they left me. I got up. I could only move with great difficulty. My head and my whole body ached. I was bleeding profusely. Over the next few days new troops arrived and I was pestered a lot.

She was infected with syphilis from the repeated rapes.

Alaine Polcz? It is translation of her book in Russian

http://magazines.russ.ru/neva/2004/2/po9.html

Îí ïðèíÿë ìåíÿ î÷åíü ëþáåçíî, íàêîðìèë ñûòíûì óæèíîì. ß æäàëà, ÷òî áóäåò äàëüøå. Åñëè ÿ îñòàíóñü ñ íèì íà íî÷ü, ñêàçàë îí, ïîëó÷ó ïîëîâèíó ñâèíîé òóøè. Ãîñïîäè Áîæå ìîé, ïîëîâèíà ñâèíîé òóøè, â òî âðåìÿ!

Íå ðàçäóìûâàÿ, ÿ ñîãëàñèëàñü ñ íèì ïåðåñïàòü.

...ÿ ñòîëêíóëàñü ñ òîé ñàìîé êóõàðêîé... ïî åå ãëàçàì âèäíî áûëî, ÷òî îíà îáî ìíå äóìàåò. ß — øëþõà.

Ñîáñòâåííî ãîâîðÿ, ÿ è áûëà åþ — â ïðÿìîì ñìûñëå ñëîâà.

He received me kindly, proposed a fine dinner. I waited what would happen. If I stay with him tonight, he said, then I would get a half of a pig. My God, a half of a pig, in that time!

Without any hesitation I agreed.

...I met a cook... For her eyes I understood what she thought about me. I'm a prostitute.

In fact, I was a prostitute - in the direct meaning of this word.

ß ïîøëà ê ðóññêèì è ïîïðîñèëà ó íèõ êóâøèí ìîëîêà.

Öåíó ÿ çíàëà: çà êðûíêó ìîëîêà ïðèøëîñü ðàñïëà÷èâàòüñÿ ñâîèì òåëîì.

I approached Russians and asked a jar of milk.

I knew the cost and paid by my body

ÿ ïîøëà â äîì ñâÿùåííèêà... õîòåëà ïðèíåñòè îòòóäà ìàòðàñ...Îôèöåð ñîãëàñèëñÿ: åñëè ÿ ñ íèì ëÿãó, ìîãó çàáðàòü ìàòðàñ

I went to the house of the priest... wanted to get matrass... An officer agreed if I would lay with him

Òîãäà ÿ ñêàçàëà: “Ìàìî÷êà, ÿ æå ãîâîðèëà, âñåõ æåíùèí èçíàñèëîâàëè! Âû ñêàçàëè, çäåñü òîæå õâàòàëè æåíùèí”. — “Äà, íî òîëüêî øëþõ. À òû íå òàêàÿ”

Then I said: "Mama, I told you, all women were raped. You said that here [in Budapest] all womens were raped as well". - "Yes, but only prostitutes. But you are not."