Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britain?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
BuddaBell123
Banned
Posts: 180
Joined: 27 Jan 2013 23:07

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by BuddaBell123 » 03 Jul 2013 22:52

So to conclude BC was sent to bomb military targets in Berlin and to a certain degree it carried that out the best it could. Seeing the high civilian casualty rate from Luftwaffe bombing of Britain's military targets did the Luftwaffe bombers purposely bomb British civilians from time to time? I ask as the high number of civilian deaths seems to show a lack of obedience with the Luftwaffe to not bomb British civilians, whereas BC was very disciplined at not causing civilian casualties - that it did very well due to the low German civilian casualty rate during these early bombing raids.
-Oliver

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17487
Joined: 30 Apr 2006 23:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by phylo_roadking » 03 Jul 2013 23:03

I ask as the high number of civilian deaths seems to show a lack of obedience with the Luftwaffe to not bomb British civilians, whereas BC was very disciplined at not causing civilian casualties - that it did very well due to the low German civilian casualty rate during these early bombing raids.
I think what you're not grasping is that the Germans often missed their industrial/military targets embedded in urban areas and hit civilians nearby...whereas the RAF missed their industrial targets AND often missed the towns entirely too!

It wasn't them "doing well", it was them doing even worse 8O Google on "Butt Report".... :wink:

IIRC one writer commented on the Butt Report as revealing that German cows were more at risk from the RAF than German civilians were...
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Hop
Member
Posts: 570
Joined: 09 Apr 2002 00:55
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by Hop » 03 Jul 2013 23:35

Seeing the high civilian casualty rate from Luftwaffe bombing of Britain's military targets did the Luftwaffe bombers purposely bomb British civilians from time to time?
Overy notes in The Battle that German pilots were ordered to avoid residential areas "unless jettisoning bombs", and that London could be bombed "on moonless nights" because it offered a large target area in which something of value might be hit. That suggests a far looser policy than the RAF's.

There's also a difference in scale of operations. According to Hooton the Luftwaffe flew about 2,200 night and 4,000 day bomber sorties over Britain in August 1940. Bomber Command flew a total of 2,200 night sorties, but most of those would have been against targets in France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17487
Joined: 30 Apr 2006 23:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by phylo_roadking » 03 Jul 2013 23:47

Bomber Command flew a total of 2,200 night sorties, but most of those would have been against targets in France, Belgium and the Netherlands.
That would bear checking for an interesting August-September comparison; serious ops against barge concentrations didn't start until the first week of September...although operations against invasion targets had been ordered from July 4th, and bargebusting given priority in the 21st of August...and from the start of September on there were various nights of VERY large sortie numbers as the 1940-period Heavy Force AND BC's Battles and Blenheims sortied by night "bargebusting", inflating the numbers. In September for instance, though I'm short figures for three nights, only 6-7 night's of ops seem to have accounted for nearly 1,000 sorties!
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Hop
Member
Posts: 570
Joined: 09 Apr 2002 00:55
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by Hop » 04 Jul 2013 00:04

I went looking to see if I could track down the exact numbers of sorties to Germany. The BC war diaries are too vague, often it's X number of bombers to "multiple targets" in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy and Germany.

I would like to revise: "most of those would have been against targets in France, Belgium and the Netherlands" to "many", because I'm not sure if Germany wasn't the main target for night ops in August.
though I'm short figures for three nights
What nights are you missing?
Last edited by Hop on 04 Jul 2013 00:18, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17487
Joined: 30 Apr 2006 23:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by phylo_roadking » 04 Jul 2013 00:08

because I'm not sure if Germany wasn't the main target for night ops in August.
Certainly August saw the Heavy Force night ops on "invasion" targets like the Dortmund-Ems Canal to stop barges heading to the coast...before they were diverted to targets further west.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
LWD
Member
Posts: 8584
Joined: 21 Sep 2005 21:46
Location: Michigan

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by LWD » 15 Jul 2013 19:56

Hop wrote: ... Some people will claim Hitler never ordered bombing of civilians. ....
Didn't the Germans threaten the Dutch with the destruction of one of their cities by bombing?

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17487
Joined: 30 Apr 2006 23:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by phylo_roadking » 15 Jul 2013 20:29

though I'm short figures for three nights
What nights are you missing?
Sortie numbers for bargebusting on the 5th, 6th and 7th of September 1940.

So far I have...

The 13th/14th - 91 sorties.

The 17th/18th - 208 sorties (84 barges sunk that night)

The 11th/12th - 131 sorties.

(I DO have a number for the 14th/15th - 154 sorties - but its a TOTAL sortie figure for that nights' ops, which included a lot of other non-Sealion-related raids)
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Knouterer
Member
Posts: 1562
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 17:19

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by Knouterer » 15 Jul 2013 20:52

According to the Official History ((Collier, The Defence of the United Kingdom, p. 141) "... in practice only about 47 per cent. of the tonnage dropped by Bomber Command in July and August was aimed at the German aircraft industry and aerodromes (in France and the Low Countries), rather more than 13 per cent. at barges, ships and naval targets, and the rest at oïl targets and communications."
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

User avatar
BuddaBell123
Banned
Posts: 180
Joined: 27 Jan 2013 23:07

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by BuddaBell123 » 15 Sep 2013 17:56

It seems to be the Luftwaffe accidental bombing of the East End of London on the night of the 24Th of August 1940 which set Churchill off resulting in a retaliation bombing of Berlin the next night. Was Churchill aware of the number of bombings of British cities and civilian areas before this bombing, which he saw as the last straw or was he unaware of these other bombings and just waiting for an excuse to bomb German cities?
-Oliver

steverodgers801
Member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 18:02

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by steverodgers801 » 16 Sep 2013 11:00

Actually the Germans targeted civilians in their invasion of Poland.

Hop
Member
Posts: 570
Joined: 09 Apr 2002 00:55
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by Hop » 17 Sep 2013 20:59

Was Churchill aware of the number of bombings of British cities and civilian areas before this bombing, which he saw as the last straw or was he unaware of these other bombings and just waiting for an excuse to bomb German cities?
He was very much aware. Apart from any other sources, the War Cabinet received a weekly briefing of military operations. The 23 August briefing said civilian deaths for the week 15 - 22 August were 331, up from 96 the week before.

User avatar
BuddaBell123
Banned
Posts: 180
Joined: 27 Jan 2013 23:07

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by BuddaBell123 » 18 Sep 2013 10:57

Hop, would I then be correct in saying that Churchill only decided to bomb German cities after repeated German attacks on Britain's? Making it a reprisal attack.
-Oliver

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4287
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by Urmel » 18 Sep 2013 21:29

LWD wrote:
Hop wrote: ... Some people will claim Hitler never ordered bombing of civilians. ....
Didn't the Germans threaten the Dutch with the destruction of one of their cities by bombing?
Yes, but only after they destroyed one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_Blitz
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

steverodgers801
Member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 18:02

Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

Post by steverodgers801 » 19 Sep 2013 03:54

The attack on Rotterdam was not intended to be a terror attack, but it resulted in that and the Germans used it for propaganda

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”