Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britain?

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BuddaBell123
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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#16

Post by BuddaBell123 » 03 Jul 2013, 23:52

So to conclude BC was sent to bomb military targets in Berlin and to a certain degree it carried that out the best it could. Seeing the high civilian casualty rate from Luftwaffe bombing of Britain's military targets did the Luftwaffe bombers purposely bomb British civilians from time to time? I ask as the high number of civilian deaths seems to show a lack of obedience with the Luftwaffe to not bomb British civilians, whereas BC was very disciplined at not causing civilian casualties - that it did very well due to the low German civilian casualty rate during these early bombing raids.
-Oliver

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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#17

Post by phylo_roadking » 04 Jul 2013, 00:03

I ask as the high number of civilian deaths seems to show a lack of obedience with the Luftwaffe to not bomb British civilians, whereas BC was very disciplined at not causing civilian casualties - that it did very well due to the low German civilian casualty rate during these early bombing raids.
I think what you're not grasping is that the Germans often missed their industrial/military targets embedded in urban areas and hit civilians nearby...whereas the RAF missed their industrial targets AND often missed the towns entirely too!

It wasn't them "doing well", it was them doing even worse 8O Google on "Butt Report".... :wink:

IIRC one writer commented on the Butt Report as revealing that German cows were more at risk from the RAF than German civilians were...
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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#18

Post by Hop » 04 Jul 2013, 00:35

Seeing the high civilian casualty rate from Luftwaffe bombing of Britain's military targets did the Luftwaffe bombers purposely bomb British civilians from time to time?
Overy notes in The Battle that German pilots were ordered to avoid residential areas "unless jettisoning bombs", and that London could be bombed "on moonless nights" because it offered a large target area in which something of value might be hit. That suggests a far looser policy than the RAF's.

There's also a difference in scale of operations. According to Hooton the Luftwaffe flew about 2,200 night and 4,000 day bomber sorties over Britain in August 1940. Bomber Command flew a total of 2,200 night sorties, but most of those would have been against targets in France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#19

Post by phylo_roadking » 04 Jul 2013, 00:47

Bomber Command flew a total of 2,200 night sorties, but most of those would have been against targets in France, Belgium and the Netherlands.
That would bear checking for an interesting August-September comparison; serious ops against barge concentrations didn't start until the first week of September...although operations against invasion targets had been ordered from July 4th, and bargebusting given priority in the 21st of August...and from the start of September on there were various nights of VERY large sortie numbers as the 1940-period Heavy Force AND BC's Battles and Blenheims sortied by night "bargebusting", inflating the numbers. In September for instance, though I'm short figures for three nights, only 6-7 night's of ops seem to have accounted for nearly 1,000 sorties!
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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#20

Post by Hop » 04 Jul 2013, 01:04

I went looking to see if I could track down the exact numbers of sorties to Germany. The BC war diaries are too vague, often it's X number of bombers to "multiple targets" in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy and Germany.

I would like to revise: "most of those would have been against targets in France, Belgium and the Netherlands" to "many", because I'm not sure if Germany wasn't the main target for night ops in August.
though I'm short figures for three nights
What nights are you missing?
Last edited by Hop on 04 Jul 2013, 01:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#21

Post by phylo_roadking » 04 Jul 2013, 01:08

because I'm not sure if Germany wasn't the main target for night ops in August.
Certainly August saw the Heavy Force night ops on "invasion" targets like the Dortmund-Ems Canal to stop barges heading to the coast...before they were diverted to targets further west.
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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#22

Post by LWD » 15 Jul 2013, 20:56

Hop wrote: ... Some people will claim Hitler never ordered bombing of civilians. ....
Didn't the Germans threaten the Dutch with the destruction of one of their cities by bombing?

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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#23

Post by phylo_roadking » 15 Jul 2013, 21:29

though I'm short figures for three nights
What nights are you missing?
Sortie numbers for bargebusting on the 5th, 6th and 7th of September 1940.

So far I have...

The 13th/14th - 91 sorties.

The 17th/18th - 208 sorties (84 barges sunk that night)

The 11th/12th - 131 sorties.

(I DO have a number for the 14th/15th - 154 sorties - but its a TOTAL sortie figure for that nights' ops, which included a lot of other non-Sealion-related raids)
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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#24

Post by Knouterer » 15 Jul 2013, 21:52

According to the Official History ((Collier, The Defence of the United Kingdom, p. 141) "... in practice only about 47 per cent. of the tonnage dropped by Bomber Command in July and August was aimed at the German aircraft industry and aerodromes (in France and the Low Countries), rather more than 13 per cent. at barges, ships and naval targets, and the rest at oïl targets and communications."
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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#25

Post by BuddaBell123 » 15 Sep 2013, 18:56

It seems to be the Luftwaffe accidental bombing of the East End of London on the night of the 24Th of August 1940 which set Churchill off resulting in a retaliation bombing of Berlin the next night. Was Churchill aware of the number of bombings of British cities and civilian areas before this bombing, which he saw as the last straw or was he unaware of these other bombings and just waiting for an excuse to bomb German cities?
-Oliver

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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#26

Post by steverodgers801 » 16 Sep 2013, 12:00

Actually the Germans targeted civilians in their invasion of Poland.

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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#27

Post by Hop » 17 Sep 2013, 21:59

Was Churchill aware of the number of bombings of British cities and civilian areas before this bombing, which he saw as the last straw or was he unaware of these other bombings and just waiting for an excuse to bomb German cities?
He was very much aware. Apart from any other sources, the War Cabinet received a weekly briefing of military operations. The 23 August briefing said civilian deaths for the week 15 - 22 August were 331, up from 96 the week before.

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BuddaBell123
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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#28

Post by BuddaBell123 » 18 Sep 2013, 11:57

Hop, would I then be correct in saying that Churchill only decided to bomb German cities after repeated German attacks on Britain's? Making it a reprisal attack.
-Oliver

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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#29

Post by Urmel » 18 Sep 2013, 22:29

LWD wrote:
Hop wrote: ... Some people will claim Hitler never ordered bombing of civilians. ....
Didn't the Germans threaten the Dutch with the destruction of one of their cities by bombing?
Yes, but only after they destroyed one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_Blitz
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: Who Bombed The Others Civilians First? Germany or Britai

#30

Post by steverodgers801 » 19 Sep 2013, 04:54

The attack on Rotterdam was not intended to be a terror attack, but it resulted in that and the Germans used it for propaganda

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