Generalplan Ost

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Roberto
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#31

Post by Roberto » 16 Apr 2003, 19:01

viriato wrote:Roberto wrote:
Modern highways serving the new masters while the slaves till the land or rot in their miserable cities - really an inconsistency?


Yes because your source spoke of the Germans not inhabitating the Russian cities and their being destroyed. However it is plain to see that any cross of roads or navigable waters will lead soon or later to the building of a settlement because of the economical incentives given by a point of transshipment and/or cross.
Certainly so. Nice and clean new German settlements, surrounded by the slums populated by sub-human helots that the existing Soviet cities would turn into.
viriato wrote:More than this is that the map (and I'm using the one that appears in the "Penguin Atlas of the Third Reich" by Richard Overy) do put the cities, Kiev, Moscow etc. in the center of those communication webs. They were to be used as nodal points in the future.
Sounds like I'm not so far off with my above assumption.

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#32

Post by Scott Smith » 17 Apr 2003, 03:00

viriato wrote:witness

I'm not speaking of the war from either your "Slav" point of view (or the Jewish point of view, or the Gipsy one) or the national-socialist point of view. I'm speaking of the war as an international conflagration with certain causes and different consequences. And I claim that the war (the 1914/1945 conflict) was in the main a war between Germany on one side and the UK (and than the US) on the other side for the primacy of power in Europe. Whatever other countries we can found on the side of the UK/USA (or Germany) is of secondary importance to the war. But I am also aware that Hitler and many national-socialists never understood it. Like D. Quijote they turned their eyes against their modern day windmills - the Jews, the "Slavs" and so on.
I'd have to agree with that assessment.
:)


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#33

Post by viriato » 17 Apr 2003, 14:54

Roberto wrote:
viriato wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Quote:
Modern highways serving the new masters while the slaves till the land or rot in their miserable cities - really an inconsistency?

Yes because your source spoke of the Germans not inhabitating the Russian cities and their being destroyed. However it is plain to see that any cross of roads or navigable waters will lead soon or later to the building of a settlement because of the economical incentives given by a point of transshipment and/or cross.


Certainly so. Nice and clean new German settlements, surrounded by the slums populated by sub-human helots that the existing Soviet cities would turn into.
As your other quote says:
Into the Russian cities we shall not go. They must die away completely.[my emphasis] We need to have no remorse in this respect […] we have no obligations whatsoever towards these people.
The Russian populated cities must die away completely. That is no one will live there. This is not however what was planned accordinng to the Generalplan Ost and the interpretation Richard Overy gives to it.

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Roberto
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#34

Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2003, 15:12

viriato wrote:Roberto wrote:
viriato wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Quote:
Modern highways serving the new masters while the slaves till the land or rot in their miserable cities - really an inconsistency?

Yes because your source spoke of the Germans not inhabitating the Russian cities and their being destroyed. However it is plain to see that any cross of roads or navigable waters will lead soon or later to the building of a settlement because of the economical incentives given by a point of transshipment and/or cross.


Certainly so. Nice and clean new German settlements, surrounded by the slums populated by sub-human helots that the existing Soviet cities would turn into.
As your other quote says:
Into the Russian cities we shall not go. They must die away completely.[my emphasis] We need to have no remorse in this respect […] we have no obligations whatsoever towards these people.
The Russian populated cities must die away completely. That is no one will live there.
Certainly so. The Russian subhumans will rot and die or move out, and Germans will not replace them. They will build their own neat and clean settlements instead.
viriato wrote:This is not however what was planned accordinng to the Generalplan Ost and the interpretation Richard Overy gives to it.
Still don't see the incompatibility. But maybe the Generalplan Ost will help. Care to show us the respective passages?

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#35

Post by viriato » 17 Apr 2003, 15:29

To Roberto:

The Kaminsiki brigade stems from Bronislaw Kaminski. As it is apparent from the name, although a Soviet citizen and living in Russia, Kaminski was Polish. Poles seem to have been chosen in many instances (more so than their numerical importance in the total population) by the Germans in the occupied USSR (including the annexed territories of 1939) for important roles in the local administration. What was the reason?

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#36

Post by viriato » 17 Apr 2003, 15:34

Roberto wrote:
But maybe the Generalplan Ost will help. Care to show us the respective passages?
I´ll have to check out in the book. I haven't it with me at the moment.

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#37

Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2003, 15:47

viriato wrote:To Roberto:

The Kaminsiki brigade stems from Bronislaw Kaminski. As it is apparent from the name, although a Soviet citizen and living in Russia, Kaminski was Polish. Poles seem to have been chosen in many instances (more so than their numerical importance in the total population) by the Germans in the occupied USSR (including the annexed territories of 1939) for important roles in the local administration. What was the reason?
Antagonism between Poles on the hand and Russians, Ukrainians and Belorussians on the other, coupled with the notion that Poles were more suited to administrative tasks, most probably.

What follows is my translation from pages 1060 and following of the Kalkulierte Morde, by German historian Christian Gerlach.
10.2 The Persecution of the Polish Intelligentsia

Within the scope of its so-called Volkstumspolitik (ethnic policy) the NS state was hostile to the Polish population, especially the Polish leading class. In the western parts of Belorussia, which until September 1939 had belonged to the Polish state, there was a strong Polish minority. The Poles concentrated in the cities, where they mostly made up the majority and held many administrative posts. The question how the occupying power was to behave towards them, especially if they were to be treated worse than the Belorussians or fought against, was basically not decided during the whole period of German occupation, despite repeated actions of persecution and murder. The dispute was about the question what was considered more important: the political goal of repressing and harming the allegedly especially anti-German Poles or the consideration of using them to the advantage of the country’s stability and its economic exploitation, especially as leaders in community administration and factories. Also here the fronts did not run clearly in accordance with the institutions – SS on one side, civilian administration and Wehrmacht on the other – but across the institutions, often depending on the momentary tactical situation. All this happened before the background of a constant power struggle, partially even a small war between Belorussian and Polish national groups for supremacy in administration and police on a local level, which had recently been revealed by Bernhard Chiari.
Heydrich had on 1 July 1941 ordered the Einsatzgruppen that extermination actions were “to be extended primarily to the Bolsheviks and the Jews”, while “in regard to the Polish intelligentsia […] word will follow later”. It was said that the Poles were anti-Semitic and anti-Communist and that this must be taken advantage of. In a similar direction went an order by General v. Schenkendorff (he even called for “most sparing treatment”), which also Bach-Zelewski transmitted to the SS – and police units without protesting. Against this there was the attitude of other commanders, who in part seemed dissatisfied with the actions of their troops and wanted to incite them to anti-Polish actions. The Einsatzgruppen reported on alleged danger from Polish nationalists, called for actions against them and carried out such actions on some occasions still in 1941. But an overall instruction for persecution measures from Berlin the police forces don’t seem to have had. The civilian administration, responsible for the whole of western Belorussia since 1 September 1941, was of two minds. General Commissar Kube, who – an important political aspect – wanted to keep his Belorussian clientele satisfied, in the absence of other possibilities, with political paroles and posts in the auxiliary administration at the expense of the Poles, favored a tougher approach than the Reich Commissariat in Riga, which ordered merely a “sharper political supervision” but otherwise the same treatment as was given to the Belorussians.
In 1942 the anti-Polish proceeding became noticeably tougher. At the requirement of a coalition of the General Commissariat White Ruthenia, Wehrmacht, SS, police and most regional commissars, the Poles were systematically removed from leadership positions in administration and economy, which was often not possible, however, due to the difficulty of finding replacements. The region of Lida constituted an exception to the removal policy. Poles were preferentially sent to Germany for forced labor. Furthermore members of the Baranovichi delegation of the Commander of Security Police and SD in the summer arrested numerous members of the Polish leadership and murdered about 1,000. The number in the whole General Commissariat White Ruthenia cannot have been higher. A part of the leadership in the Regional Commissariat White Ruthenia considered this “Polish action” as “devastating” and sharply criticized the Commander of Security Police and SD Minsk, Strauch. Strauch, on the other hand, felt himself vindicated by a later decree of the Eastern Ministry ordering further sharp measures against Poles. They were defined as an enemy people, even though “the Polish problem […]” could “for obvious reasons not be given a definitive solution during the war”. In 1943 and 1944 the arrests and shootings by security police and SD continued locally, but the balance tender towards valuing the stronger loyalty of the Polish population segment towards the Germans and its allegedly better work performance higher than political reservations. While Kube had to be reminded by agriculture functionary Küper as late as the summer of 1943 that the work of 400,000 Polish laborers in the Regional Commissariat White Ruthenia could not be done without, his successor v. Gottberg soon thereafter recognized this himself. While the respective forces in the civilian administration could not always impose themselves, this eventually happened to a great extent, as the example of the constitution of armed villages in the areas of Lida and Slonim [where, as described on pages 1052 and following of the same book, Caucasian collaborators were settled at the expense of the Belorussian rather than the Polish peasantry, translator’s note] and the supporting of Polish partisans [related to the fact that they fought mostly against Soviet partisans rather than the Germans, as mentioned on page 1054 of the book, translator’s note] has shown.
The procedure of fighting the Polish intelligentsia corresponded to the general economic and social German occupation concept in Belorussia of not allowing the constitution of a new leading class, as is especially shown by the German agrarian reform (chapter 4.5). The primary target of persecution was the Polish urban intelligentsia; the number thereof murdered in Belorussia is likely to have been between 2,000 and 3,000. The Polish farm owners mostly remained in their positions as administrators in the service of the Landbewirtschaftungsgesellschaft Ostland [(griculture Company Eastern Territories), see chapter 4.4d. Thus the German policy regarding Poles in Belorussia was not in all respects – and insofar as it was, to a diminishing degree – in contradiction with the economic interests of the NS state.

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Generalplan Ost

#38

Post by Debbie » 18 Apr 2003, 16:20

Does anyone know of a copy of the Generalplan Ost in English? I do much better with English than German. Thanks!

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#39

Post by viriato » 21 Apr 2003, 12:51

To Roberto:

The book I referred to by Richard Overy is rich on maps and tables but poor on words. As so he doesn't speak much about the Generalplan Ost, only gives a simple introduction to the subject. The map however covers half the space of the two pages and my source is the map.

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#40

Post by viriato » 21 Apr 2003, 13:27

witness you asked:
I asked you to back up your assertion that there is a "historical record " that "that pretty well all Austrians must have some Slavic ancestry. "
Check an Austrian site, an Austrian film or documentary and see the names of the actors and /or technicians or go to any telephone directory and you could confirm it. The same happens in Germany although at a lesser scale.

BTW the two most known actress during the national-socialist period were Marika Rökk, Hungarian and Lida Baarova, Czech. And don't forget the modern actress Hanna Schygulla, born in Kattowitz. Although she is German, she bores an hardly "German" name.

Discovering Slav or Hungarian, Armenian (remember Guderian and Karajan?) and Greek, French or Italian or Rumanian ancestors in the German speaking population is quite common. If the national-socialists were to purge those "Germans-whatever" from the "Germans-Germans" they would had found that the "Germans-Germans" were perhaps a minority... :lol:
Where did I mention the WW1 ?
You didn't. But this is exactly where we diverge in our interpretation of the History of the twentieth century. For you WW1 and WW2 seems to be two different things at best distant related. For me and others there is in fact no WW1 and WW2, just only one war with two hot periods and one cold period in between. Indeed my terming of "Thirty Years War of the Twentieth Century" were made before me by none others than Winston Churchill and Charles de Gaulle. Other people termed it the "German War" (Hannes Heer) or even the "European Civil War" (Ernst Nolte).

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#41

Post by witness » 21 Apr 2003, 15:07

viriato wrote:witness you asked:
I asked you to back up your assertion that there is a "historical record " that "that pretty well all Austrians must have some Slavic ancestry. "
Check an Austrian site, an Austrian film or documentary and see the names of the actors and /or technicians or go to any telephone directory and you could confirm it. The same happens in Germany although at a lesser scale.
Viriato .I am quite aware that a lot of Slavs lived on the territory of Austria -Hungary and probably there are quite a few Austrians now
who have Slavic roots.What I asked was whether there is evidence of widescale interbreeding between German and Slavic population of Austria-Hungary. Are you aware of the antoganism between Pan-Germanists and Slavs in Austria-Hungarian empire ? Of the struggle to make Czech
language the second official language in Austri-Hungary and how ugly this struggle was ( Mark Twain described it quite well btw )
The same happens in Germany although at a lesser scale.
What happened in Germany ? Intermixing with Slavs. ?
Of course we can always find some examples ( I am sure there are Swedes with some Chinese blood in them .. :) )
but are we talking of any significant numbers?
If an average German had been aware of his/her any Slavic roots then Nazis theory of the national superiority of Germans before Slavs would have not been that appealing to him/her. Don't you think ?

But this is exactly where we diverge in our interpretation of the History of the twentieth century.
Perhaps. Yes notwithstanding the certain connection between WW1 and WW2 IMHO this would be ( if to use your term ) ''oversimplifying'' to view WW2 as the mere continuation of WW1.
Several reasons come to mind :
1. Absolutely different political forces were involved on the both sides
2. Absolutely different ideologies were in fight on the both sides.
3. The objectives of this war ( at least for the Nazis ) were also absolutely different.

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#42

Post by michael mills » 22 Apr 2003, 14:22

"Witness" still seems to have trouble accepting that his precious Slavic race has been corrupted through mixing with Germans.

I can do not better than repeat what I previously wrote:
The historical record indicates that pretty well all Austrians must have some Slavic ancestry. The whole area of modern Austria was at one time inhabited by Slavic tribes, which were gradually germanised in the early Middle Ages and mixed with incoming German settlers.

Furthermore, throughout the Middle Ages and right up to modern times, Slavs of various types, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats, moved into Austria and mixed with the people there.

Likewise, practically all Czechs must have some German ancestry, given that German tribes lived in Bohemia before the influx of Slavic tribes (Bohemia = Boheim = The Home of the Boii, the original Celtic inhabitants), and that throughout the medieval period Germans settled there and mixed in.
If "Witness" exerts himself and reads the above carefully, several times, he will see that it expresses in a nutshell what the historical circumstances were that led to the large-scale ethnic mixing of Germans and Slavs.

Of course, that mixing mainly affected the Slavic peoples who lived nearest the Germans, ie Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes. Slavic peoples living further to the East, eg Cossacks, probably did not mix with Germans to any appreciable extent; their interbreeding was mainly with Finns, Ugrians, Tartars etc.

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#43

Post by witness » 23 Apr 2003, 01:56

michael mills wrote:"Witness" still seems to have trouble accepting that his precious Slavic race has been corrupted through mixing with Germans.
mills must be delusional. :lol:
Otherwise it is difficult to explain where did he get this idea that I think that the "Slavic race" ( there is no such race btw but one of the ethnic groups of the Indo-European family ) "has been corrupted through mixing with Germans "... (?)
Yes I think my race is "precious " as any other race on
Earth .
If mills has problems with it ,
probably thinking that only Germanic " Race " is
"Precious'' then he can just "suck it up " and wipe his Nazi -kissing organ.

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#44

Post by witness » 23 Apr 2003, 02:10

Of course, that mixing mainly affected the Slavic peoples who lived nearest the Germans, ie Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes. Slavic peoples living further to the East, eg Cossacks, probably did not mix with Germans to any appreciable extent; their interbreeding was mainly with Finns, Ugrians, Tartars etc.
Do you have problems with Cossacks now ?Well -Cossacks would not have any problems with you...
Just don't spit on the screen.
Nice try .Probably you have problems with your memory as well ,do you ?
I asked if you have any evidence of any significant interbreeding of the German and Slavic population in the Austria-Hungary. So far no go.
The relationships between these two groups were particularly warm ..ahh ?To the extend of celebrating pooling their genetic make-up together ... :lol:

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#45

Post by michael mills » 23 Apr 2003, 06:00

Witness wrote:
If mills has problems with it ,
probably thinking that only Germanic " Race " is
"Precious'' then he can just "suck it up " and wipe his Nazi -kissing organ.
This sort of comment says a lot about the mental health of the contributor who goes under the name of "witness".

His constant demand for "proof" that there has, over the course of more than one thousand years, been constant and significant interbreeding between Slavic and Germanic peoples in Central Europe, particularly in the area of what are now Poland, Czechoslovakia and Austria, suggests that he is uncomfortable with the thought that such interbreeding took place on a large scale.

The fact of human existence is that where different ethnic groups live side by side, they tend to interbreed freely, unless some strong ideological factor such as religious adherence largely prevents it (eg as was the case with the Jews). On the western edge of the Slav-inhabited area, where Slavs lived next to Germans, there was much interbreeding with Germans and Slavs; on the eastern edge of that area, eg the Cossack lands, where Slavs lived next to Tartars, Caucasian peoples, Ugrians and others, there was much intermixing with those ethnic groups.

The interbreeding described above is a fact of history. I ascribe no moral significance to it whatever, unlike "witness", who for some strange reason feels a need to insult, in rather coarse terms, those who admit the reality of widespread racial mixing over the centuries.

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