Gassing Vans Revisited

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Post by David Thompson » 13 May 2003 03:33

Scott -- That kind of taunting makes the civility policy even more difficult to enforce. Please avoid it.

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Post by xcalibur » 13 May 2003 06:21

Scott Smith wrote:Hi Roberto,

Without sufficient details your accounts of magical mystery murder-vans might as well be called Sightings.

Image
Roberto wrote:Whether this was because the vans were models custom-built by Gaubschat (the company specially hired for the purpose) with a Saurer or Diamond chassis, or because they were custom-built Saurer or Diamond models with gasoline engines, or because they came from other manufacturers (like the Renault trucks at Chelmno mentioned by Burmeister) is a matter of speculation for those who like to concern themselves with the sex of the angels.
It might be of interest to the angels themselves, and to those who have congress with them.

Image

The only way the murder-weapon would NOT be of interest is if the crime were a Moral Certainty and was therefore beyond the pale of forensic science.
Roberto wrote:I wonder why Smith responded on this forum to a post by Hebden on Hargis' "Revisionist" sewer, by the way. It should be rather difficult to mix up a highly active historical forum like this one with a sleepy "Revisionist" corner for "discussions" among a handful of true believers.
Why, to allow you and anyone else who cannot post over there to comment if you want to, of course! After all, Hebden and Sailor cannot come over here.

I also posted it at the site below, where the twain can meet if they see something they don't like on another forum and can't post there.

It's Real Open Debate On the Holocaust, moderated by Calvin & Hobbes and Hans. No more excuses.

Image

This has been a very interesting thread, particularly as I had the opportunity to visit the Treblinka site a number of years ago. Having read the thread and visited the site I find myself asking the same questions now as then:

Is it possible what is said about this place is true?

What evidence of it makes it so?

If it did not happen the way it's supposed to have happened what did happen to those who came here?

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 13 May 2003 09:27

Scott Smith wrote:Hi Roberto,

Without sufficient details your accounts of magical mystery murder-vans might as well be called Sightings.
Depositions of eyewitnesses and defendants in court, my dear boy. Nothing magical and mysterious, but conclusive evidence that Smith lamely tries to sweep away with his customary bullshit because it doesn't fit into his ideological bubble. I don't expect a short account like that in the book by Kogon et al to contain the full text of deposition, interrogation or cross-examination protocols from the volumous court files, as I don't expect Smith to be interested in them despite his mumbling about a supposed lack of "sufficient details". And it's certainly funny to see the true believer bemoan a lack of "sufficient details" when the witnesses spoke of gasoline engines and thus left no room for him to make a fuss. If they had spoken of diesel engines, the term "diesel" alone would be enough for Smith to give us a lengthy and boring "technical" sermon.
Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:Whether this was because the vans were models custom-built by Gaubschat (the company specially hired for the purpose) with a Saurer or Diamond chassis, or because they were custom-built Saurer or Diamond models with gasoline engines, or because they came from other manufacturers (like the Renault trucks at Chelmno mentioned by Burmeister) is a matter of speculation for those who like to concern themselves with the sex of the angels.
It might be of interest to the angels themselves, and to those who have congress with them.
I never expected Smith to come up with weighty arguments, but even his witty quips are getting more imbecile by the hour.
Scott Smith wrote:The only way the murder-weapon would NOT be of interest is if the crime were a Moral Certainty and was therefore beyond the pale of forensic science.
Absolute cream cheese, my dear true believer. The only reason why the murder weapon would be of interest to forensic science was if it provided traces helping to identify the killer. Smith is again invited to demonstrate what delving into the features of engine that issued the lethal exhaust could have contributed to the findings of criminal justice in this respect.
Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:I wonder why Smith responded on this forum to a post by Hebden on Hargis' "Revisionist" sewer, by the way. It should be rather difficult to mix up a highly active historical forum like this one with a sleepy "Revisionist" corner for "discussions" among a handful of true believers.
Why, to allow you and anyone else who cannot post over there to comment if you want to, of course!
Thanks. The issue doesn't really interest me, but a chance to slap Smith's nonsense around his ears is never missed.
Scott Smith wrote:After all, Hebden and Sailor cannot come over here.
That's true in regard to the latter but not in regard to the former, as Smith well knows. I'd consider his lies an insult, if I were this forum's moderator.
Scott Smith wrote:I also posted it at the site below, where the twain can meet if they see something they don't like on another forum and can't post there.

It's Real Open Debate On the Holocaust, moderated by Calvin & Hobbes and Hans. No more excuses.
For the "Revisionist" true believers who claim to be looking for the open debate their opponents have never been shy to offer, an excuse not to venture out of their temples of faith ceased to exist (assuming it ever existed) when Hans opened RODOH some time ago. I've already registered on the new Ezboard forum and eagerly await the rats crawling out of the sewer.
Last edited by Roberto on 13 May 2003 12:16, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Roberto » 13 May 2003 09:47

xcalibur wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:Hi Roberto,

Without sufficient details your accounts of magical mystery murder-vans might as well be called Sightings.

Image
Roberto wrote:Whether this was because the vans were models custom-built by Gaubschat (the company specially hired for the purpose) with a Saurer or Diamond chassis, or because they were custom-built Saurer or Diamond models with gasoline engines, or because they came from other manufacturers (like the Renault trucks at Chelmno mentioned by Burmeister) is a matter of speculation for those who like to concern themselves with the sex of the angels.
It might be of interest to the angels themselves, and to those who have congress with them.

Image

The only way the murder-weapon would NOT be of interest is if the crime were a Moral Certainty and was therefore beyond the pale of forensic science.
Roberto wrote:I wonder why Smith responded on this forum to a post by Hebden on Hargis' "Revisionist" sewer, by the way. It should be rather difficult to mix up a highly active historical forum like this one with a sleepy "Revisionist" corner for "discussions" among a handful of true believers.
Why, to allow you and anyone else who cannot post over there to comment if you want to, of course! After all, Hebden and Sailor cannot come over here.

I also posted it at the site below, where the twain can meet if they see something they don't like on another forum and can't post there.

It's Real Open Debate On the Holocaust, moderated by Calvin & Hobbes and Hans. No more excuses.

Image

This has been a very interesting thread, particularly as I had the opportunity to visit the Treblinka site a number of years ago. Having read the thread and visited the site I find myself asking the same questions now as then:

Is it possible what is said about this place is true?

What evidence of it makes it so?

If it did not happen the way it's supposed to have happened what did happen to those who came here?
Well, if the gassing engine could not have been a diesel engine, as Smith never gets tired of telling us, it could only have been a gasoline engine, and witnesses who spoke of a diesel engine must have confused the gassing device with another used for power generation or similar non-homicidal purposes. Pretty simple, really, and one of the reasons why I consider all this "technical" quibbling a discussion about the sex of the angels.

Those who (guided by what they call "skepticism", i.e. a desire to whitewash their beloved Führer and/or to fight them bloody Jews rather than by a reasonable assessment of evidence and the findings of criminal justice and historiography) try to make out that "what is said about this place" is not true indulge in such pointless quibbling about minor details because they have never been able to provide convincing answers to the essential questions they should be able to answer satisfactorily if their "skepticism" were to carry any weight, questions like the following:

1. Court experts and historians who have assessed the documentary evidence concluded that all pertinent documents – correspondence among officials as well as train schedules, timetables and other transportation documents – clearly point to Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka as the final destinations. There is not a single document, however detailed, that even hints at the Jews taken to these camps going any further. Why would this be so if the camps were "transit camps" en route to the occupied territories of the Soviet Union?

2. The rail line leading to Treblinka was a sidetrack of the line going from Warsaw to Bialystok in Northeast Poland. Bialystok was the closest point to the Soviet Union, anyone from Treblinka being resettled in the Soviet occupied territory had to pass through there. Yet a German railroad table for Bialystok shows Jews being taken from there to Treblinka, with the empty cars returning to Bialystok. In other words, they were being moved away from the Soviet territories by being sent to Treblinka. Why was this so?

3. The resettlement of ca. 1.5 million people in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union would have been a complex operation, requiring hundreds if not thousands of German officials to carry it out and at least as many people involved in building projects. Yet no one has ever come forward to testify about such a resettlement, even though this would have made an ideal defense at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial and subsequent trials. Former high-ranking transportation specialists in Germany during the war did not offer Soviet resettlement as a defense in post-war trials, even though they denied having known the real purpose of the train transport. No war crimes defendant actually offered resettlement as a defense, even those who denied knowledge of the genocide. Why was this so?

4. As becomes apparent from a number of documents regarding the “economic aspects” of “Operation Reinhard” (alternatively spelled “Reinhardt” or “Reinhart”, I’ll use the “Reinhard” spelling for convenience in the following), the Jews taken to Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka were stripped of all their belongings there, including their clothing. Why would that have been done if they were going to be resettled – unless “resettlement” was to be to a place where they would need no clothing anymore?

5. Why would the Nazis, concerned as they were about preserving their own resources and robbing the Jews of everything they had, have invested large sums of money – far more than the costs of the killing operation, which are exactly known from Globocnik’s correspondence with Himmler – into a resettlement project? Or are the Jews supposed to have been simply shoved across the border and left there to die of starvation, exposure and disease? If so, wouldn’t that be similar to the way Stalin got rid of the “kulaks” and no less a crime than the mass killing at the extermination camps?

6. Why were there so many dead bodies at Treblinka in October of 1942 that they could not be sufficiently buried, thus creating a stench that befouled the air as far as Ostrow, 20 kilometers away, which led the local Wehrmacht commander to raise an official complaint about that stench?

7. How many whole bodies, and how many bodies reduced to ashes and other partial remains, fit into pits 7.5 meters deep in the burial area more than 20,000 square meters long and wide that was found after the war by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland? Was there room enough for, say, the 713,555 Jews from the General Government taken to Treblinka until 31.12.1942, according to the Höfle memorandum, or was there not?

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Post by Deterance » 14 May 2003 02:42

I read of the Chinese submarien disaster and this seems to validate that carbon dioxide can be used as a deadly efficient means to murder large numbers of people.

Chinese Sub disaster might have been caused by Carbon Dioxide from diesel exhaust venting into sub or from depletion of Oxygen from running engine while submerged.

Either way, this demonstrates that gasses in enclosed areas are very lethal as demonstrating by overwhelming sub crew at their duty stations. Also other factors highlight lethality of agsses.

1. Sub crew was trained and probably had access to safety equipment
2. Sub Crew had probably performed emergency drills numerous times
3. Sub crew was young males and probably physically fit
4. Sub was probably equiped with gass filters fro scrubbing atmosphere etc.
5. Crew was not suicidal and would have attempted to save themselves if possible but were overwhelmed

If carbon dioxide gas could overwhelm this crew, how can it be refuted that carbon dioxide gas can kill people in sealed trucks or chambers?

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Post by Scott Smith » 14 May 2003 05:01

Deterance wrote:I read of the Chinese submarien disaster and this seems to validate that carbon dioxide can be used as a deadly efficient means to murder large numbers of people.
It could if you pump out the oxygen and pump in some other gas. Some accounts claim that the Germans pumped OUT the air (oxygen) with their engines. Timing of this execution process is rather crucial; otherwise, you don't need any apparatus other than to seal the room and let the people suffocate on their own means.
Chinese Sub disaster might have been caused by Carbon Dioxide from diesel exhaust venting into sub or from depletion of Oxygen from running engine while submerged.
Yes, but if the engine is outside the chamber the intake is drawing in air from the outside, and as the graphs I posted show, the exhaust will have too much oxygen in it unless the engine is loaded heavily.

So the diesel engine is pumping IN oxygen UNLESS the engine is heavily-loaded.
Either way, this demonstrates that gasses in enclosed areas are very lethal as demonstrating by overwhelming sub crew at their duty stations. Also other factors highlight lethality of agsses.
Of course, which is why gases have been studied by navies and NASA. For example, if seawater gets into your batteries and mixes with the acid it produces choking clouds of chlorine gas.
1. Sub crew was trained and probably had access to safety equipment
2. Sub Crew had probably performed emergency drills numerous times
3. Sub crew was young males and probably physically fit
4. Sub was probably equiped with gass filters fro scrubbing atmosphere etc.
5. Crew was not suicidal and would have attempted to save themselves if possible but were overwhelmed

If carbon dioxide gas could overwhelm this crew, how can it be refuted that carbon dioxide gas can kill people in sealed trucks or chambers?
I don't see how you can even run the diesel engine in a submarine while submerged without a major modification on the intake and exhaust manifolds. But anyway, in a submarine the diesel propels the ship, compresses air, pumps ballast, charges batteries and pumps in fresh-air. So the engine is always run loaded.

With a diesel used to generate electrical power, it is extremely difficult to control the load, which depends on the demand for electricity. It is possible that the Nazis switched on all the lights when they wanted to gas people but that seems a bit ridiculous. The testimony has the Nazis starting an engine and the victims dying ten to thirty minutes later. This is not consistent with a diesel engine at all, nor for the generation of electrical power.

Of course, the West German courts in the Sixties didn't think about that when they basically just got the Gerstein statement and rubber-stamped it with more "witnesses." The Israelis followed suit with the Demjanjuk trial and claimed that 875 thousand were killed with diesel engines. Nowadays it has been shown that there is a problem with the diesel engine story. And, thanks to Roques, whose Ph.D. was taken by the French government, the Gerstein affidavits have been thoroughly discredited by their exaggerations (which Holocaust historians have usually omitted because such details didn't fit the bubble), and by their inconsistencies. (Their are six sworn versions of the Gerstein statement.)

I never said that it was not possible to kill people with gasoline engines, as I have repeatedly stated, but to use diesel engines would require some serious head-scratching. Unfortunately, however, there is only one account, from SS-Sgt. Erich Fuchs, that provides any detail that establishes for certain that the engine he claims to have installed for mass-murder at Sobibor was a gasoline type. However, there are numerous other holes in the story and lack of detail. As I say, I would really like to cross-examine this guy! He got a five-year sentence, relatively light for mass-murder it seems to me.

I discuss this problem on these threads:


attempted switch from alleged diesel 'gassings' to gasoline

Answer to Jonathan Swift on Diesels...

Mystery Man Tells Some...


Now, finally, the diesel gas-van problem. If the van is sitting parked then the engine cannot be loaded. But this is how some of the victims were killed in the Soviet Krasnodar/Kharkov trials in 1943. The murder-vans were specifically described as Saurer vans AND as having diesel engines. The autopsy report said death by carbon monoxide. Since diesel engines cannot be "mistuned" to produce CO there is something wrong with the story.

We have another story about vans pulled up and a hose run into a building used as a gas chamber at Chelmno. This is of course possible unless the engines are diesels. One "sighting" says they were Renault vans and petrol engines. But we have little else detail to establish credibility. It is hard to know what to make of this unless we really want to Believe real bad.

Another SS-Lieutenant Colonel Rauff memo mentions Saurer vans, so there is some convergence of evidence--or not--since it is hard to know if this is independent convergence or just a confabulation of a mechanical version of familiar little green men. Or, in other words, the trademark of Saurer=Nazi murder-van takes shape after 1943 in the popular history. Pravda ran with the story and who knows what wartime rumors propagated...

If really diesel, then the Soviet story at least cannot be right unless the vans were struggling up a hill with their load in the wrong gear. It seems a rather awkward murder weapon to me.
:)

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Post by Scott Smith » 14 May 2003 09:45

Roberto wrote:
xcalibur wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:Hi Roberto,

Without sufficient details your accounts of magical mystery murder-vans might as well be called Sightings.

Image
Roberto wrote:Whether this was because the vans were models custom-built by Gaubschat (the company specially hired for the purpose) with a Saurer or Diamond chassis, or because they were custom-built Saurer or Diamond models with gasoline engines, or because they came from other manufacturers (like the Renault trucks at Chelmno mentioned by Burmeister) is a matter of speculation for those who like to concern themselves with the sex of the angels.
It might be of interest to the angels themselves, and to those who have congress with them.

Image

The only way the murder-weapon would NOT be of interest is if the crime were a Moral Certainty and was therefore beyond the pale of forensic science.
Roberto wrote:I wonder why Smith responded on this forum to a post by Hebden on Hargis' "Revisionist" sewer, by the way. It should be rather difficult to mix up a highly active historical forum like this one with a sleepy "Revisionist" corner for "discussions" among a handful of true believers.
Why, to allow you and anyone else who cannot post over there to comment if you want to, of course! After all, Hebden and Sailor cannot come over here.

I also posted it at the site below, where the twain can meet if they see something they don't like on another forum and can't post there.

It's Real Open Debate On the Holocaust, moderated by Calvin & Hobbes and Hans. No more excuses.

Image
This has been a very interesting thread, particularly as I had the opportunity to visit the Treblinka site a number of years ago. Having read the thread and visited the site I find myself asking the same questions now as then:

Is it possible what is said about this place is true?

What evidence of it makes it so?

If it did not happen the way it's supposed to have happened what did happen to those who came here?
Well, if the gassing engine could not have been a diesel engine, as Smith never gets tired of telling us, it could only have been a gasoline engine, and witnesses who spoke of a diesel engine must have confused the gassing device with another used for power generation or similar non-homicidal purposes. Pretty simple, really, and one of the reasons why I consider all this "technical" quibbling a discussion about the sex of the angels.

Those who (guided by what they call "skepticism", i.e. a desire to whitewash their beloved Führer and/or to fight them bloody Jews rather than by a reasonable assessment of evidence and the findings of criminal justice and historiography) try to make out that "what is said about this place" is not true indulge in such pointless quibbling about minor details because they have never been able to provide convincing answers to the essential questions they should be able to answer satisfactorily if their "skepticism" were to carry any weight, questions like the following:

1. Court experts and historians who have assessed the documentary evidence concluded that all pertinent documents – correspondence among officials as well as train schedules, timetables and other transportation documents – clearly point to Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka as the final destinations. There is not a single document, however detailed, that even hints at the Jews taken to these camps going any further. Why would this be so if the camps were "transit camps" en route to the occupied territories of the Soviet Union?
That they necessarily had to have been taken to the Soviet Union to be "settled" is a straw man. Sure, that's what the Wannsee document said was going to happen after they were worked to death during the war, but how much of that went according to plan, who knows?

The short answer is we don't know what happened to them--if anything.

Little Tsvi Nussbaum, the Ghetto Boy in the famous photo, survived the clearing of the ghetto and is now a New York physician.
Roberto wrote:2. The rail line leading to Treblinka was a sidetrack of the line going from Warsaw to Bialystok in Northeast Poland. Bialystok was the closest point to the Soviet Union, anyone from Treblinka being resettled in the Soviet occupied territory had to pass through there. Yet a German railroad table for Bialystok shows Jews being taken from there to Treblinka, with the empty cars returning to Bialystok. In other words, they were being moved away from the Soviet territories by being sent to Treblinka. Why was this so?
First, your premise was that they necessarily had to urgently go to the Soviet Union. All Wannsee wanted to make sure of was that the Reich would be Judenfrei and that the sexes were separated so that their population would not increase with dependents while they were forced to labor for the Reich while at war.

We don't know how many actually entered the gates of Treblinka II. And all that gravel mined at the quarry of Treblinka I (about 2 km away) didn't get put on the Polish roads by elves or space aliens. Furthermore, while TII is a postage stamp-sized lot, "Treblinka" might have meant an area, much like Auschwitz was an "archipelago," as Solzhenitsyn said the Kolyma labor camp region was in Siberia. Planet Auschwitz, for example, was a complex of three major camps and numerous satellite camps like Schindler's Plaszow. Treblinka had two camps and there is the town Treblinka, station Treblinka, the town Malkinia, and Malkinia station, etc. TII is right on the main rail line so a good place for a transit camp, assuming they could have been sent anywhere.

Image

About all we really know is that the Reinhardt camps were built as Durchgangslagern or transit-camps. D-Lagers sprang up all over the place as labor was allocated. In this case the Jews of the Ghetto were relieved of their valuables and street clothing and probably deloused and given prisoner clothes. When they got where they were going they were probably deloused again to control epidemics. The simplest delousing was to be doused in kerosene. In any case, the testimony describes numerous persons dead-on-arrival at TII and the ill killed by gunshot.

Without locating the mass-grave and doing some real forensic archaeology it is unlikely that we will know more.

Maybe there is a smoking-gun in Soviet archives but it is not likely. Even if we found the Donation of Constantine in some archive somewhere, or even preserved in a cave, we would still be wise to suspect it because forgery is one of the oldest and commonest of crimes.
3. The resettlement of ca. 1.5 million people in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union would have been a complex operation, requiring hundreds if not thousands of German officials to carry it out and at least as many people involved in building projects. Yet no one has ever come forward to testify about such a resettlement, even though this would have made an ideal defense at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial and subsequent trials. Former high-ranking transportation specialists in Germany during the war did not offer Soviet resettlement as a defense in post-war trials, even though they denied having known the real purpose of the train transport. No war crimes defendant actually offered resettlement as a defense, even those who denied knowledge of the genocide. Why was this so?
Strawman, again. I never said anything about resettlement. I think it is likely that some Jews in what at one time or another was territory ruled by the Nazis "escaped" to Russia--because I don't see how the Nazis could have gotten ahold of more than five million, but I don't know. Demography isn't my area of interest or competence.
4. As becomes apparent from a number of documents regarding the “economic aspects” of “Operation Reinhard” (alternatively spelled “Reinhardt” or “Reinhart”, I’ll use the “Reinhard” spelling for convenience in the following), the Jews taken to Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka were stripped of all their belongings there, including their clothing. Why would that have been done if they were going to be resettled – unless “resettlement” was to be to a place where they would need no clothing anymore?
Wannsee says that the resettlement will be done at their own peril and it seems perfectly logical to me that they would "tax" them heavily for this (or for nothing at all). They would get some work out of them and they didn't give a fig how many survived the war. As the war went worse for the Germans, so the attitude hardened towards those they saw as their enemy aliens lodged subversively in their midst.

If we are asked to believe that the Germans could work Jews to death in a matter of months on labor gangs, as long as they though their slave-labor resource was inexhaustible, then why is it so hard to believe that this is where hundreds of thousands "went"? The science fiction of death in gaschambers constructed by Rube Goldberg methods, on postage stamp-sized lots, is what beggars discription.

Remember that in wartime-rumor delousing and cremation was mistaken for homicidal gassing. We see this in the term Gas-Oven commonly used in the Forties and Fifties. People used to commit suicide with gas from their kitchen ovens because it had a high carbon monoxide content in those days. Anyway, Gerstein said that the 25 million deloused during the war were homicidally gassed--or maybe his Allied interrogators fudged a little on what he really said, which just happens to be congruent to how many the German fumigation experts said were deloused by 1944 in their wartime technical journals. Why not 23 million or 27 million Genocided by gas? Dream big.

Indeed, all 60 million killed during the war were gassed by the Nazis! There are no resettlement camps for them; prove me wrong. It's a given that those soldiers listed as missing-in-action were gassed by the Nazis. Otherwise, show me their bodies? And that must also mean the Japanese and German POWs that were worked to death by the Soviets after the war. Blame those on those clever National Socialists too.
5. Why would the Nazis, concerned as they were about preserving their own resources and robbing the Jews of everything they had, have invested large sums of money – far more than the costs of the killing operation, which are exactly known from Globocnik’s correspondence with Himmler – into a resettlement project? Or are the Jews supposed to have been simply shoved across the border and left there to die of starvation, exposure and disease? If so, wouldn’t that be similar to the way Stalin got rid of the “kulaks” and no less a crime than the mass killing at the extermination camps?
Who says they did or didn't?

As far as crimes, well there is a political dimension here. I would regard anything that did not at the time appear to legitimately put every ounce of effort into winning the war to be a case of "unecessary force." And I do not believe that war should be fought with unecessary force, brutality, shock/awe, whatever you choose to call it.

But adjudicating that is something else altogether. As you know, I favor national rights and sovereignty over Internationalist agendas and legalistic sophistry. The Allied aims were Unconditional Surrender, so any warcrimes trials held by them (and for them) are therefore nothing but hypocrisy and Victor's Justice. Furthermore, demanding Unconditional Surrender on moralistic grounds (which is ultimately what it was) is nothing more than a Crusade which goads the enemy into increasingly desperate measures. The endless rounds of Allied rationalizations in the Holo-historiography that refuse to admit this fact amounts to simple Apologia. It may seem naïve to the crusading, Interventionist mentality and Internationalist bailiwick but wars are not fun and games. It is a brutal business, especially when it is winner-take-all.

No, I don't like what the Germans did to the Jews. It wasn't my fault. I am not going to feel guilty for it. No, I am not going to support Israel. I am not going to react to every Palestinian complaint about the occupation as though it were just a pack of lies intended to stuff Jews into the Gas-ovens again. And finally, just because people like Wiesel suffered does not make his people more noble than everybody else. There are truths and their are political truths. Honest historiography in the area of the Holocaust is sorely needed. I will not accept any political truths just because we want to or don't want to agree with professional martyrs.

I said years ago when we first started to debate the diesel problem that the Nazis could have used gasoline engines. You resisted that notion with all fours (and I can get the exact words if we have to). It is not important, however, since I am not saying that this was what happened. I myself consider it far more likely than flying-saucer abductions but only a little farther.
6. Why were there so many dead bodies at Treblinka in October of 1942 that they could not be sufficiently buried, thus creating a stench that befouled the air as far as Ostrow, 20 kilometers away, which led the local Wehrmacht commander to raise an official complaint about that stench?
TII very likely was used for body-disposal. I don't think they burned "more than" the canonical 700-875 thousand there, as has been suggested, but until the mass-grave is located (which shouldn't be hard) we have no way of knowing. Tom Moran says: "two guys with two shovels." I don't think so but he is on the right track.

An investigation must be done under international auspices and by experts and with full disclosure of all data and reports. A few bones or human remains is not an investigation to crow about. No comprehensive investigation was ever done, not even under Communist auspices.

Eventually I intend to get the Central Commission report from the Library of Congress but I'm confident that if there was a smoking-gun it would have been widely disseminated by now. That is why I haven't bothered to get the Neely and Witton affidavits from the law library yet (although I intend to someday). I'm confident if there was a smoking-gun (or something looking like one) on Human Soap manufacture it would be published at Nizkor already. (Besides, law librarians are kind of a surly bunch since they deal with lawyers all the time.)
7. How many whole bodies, and how many bodies reduced to ashes and other partial remains, fit into pits 7.5 meters deep in the burial area more than 20,000 square meters long and wide that was found after the war by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland? Was there room enough for, say, the 713,555 Jews from the General Government taken to Treblinka until 31.12.1942, according to the Höfle memorandum, or was there not?
Another strawman argument. How many Jews can you fit on the head of a pin? I don't know. Without *meaningful* quantification it is hard to say. The human body is mostly water. If you get rid of the water and turn most of the carbon into carbon dioxide and drive it off into the atmosphere you are still left with quantities of chemicals that are not going anywhere. I'm confident that legitimate forensic analysis will tell us whether the human remains that must be there (though haven't been found yet) is actually in the ballpark for the demographic disappearance that Holo-historians are claiming is the ipso facto proof of death-by-diesels (or whatever weapon of mass-imagination).

If the figure were too high by a factor of ten, say 70 thousand, it would certainly affect the historiography and the more we know the better. But if it were off by a factor of a hundred? Who knows? Not investigating is the worst outcome. Moral Certainty is a rape upon the rational mind. And I don't care whose loved ones are in those mass-graves that haven't been found yet (along with Elvis and the "Artesians"). In any case, I don't think "Artesian" teeth are going to disappear without a trace by bonfires any more than "undesirable" aliens did in 1942-43.

Image

This is a map drawn by Dr. Kammler showing his slave-labor gangs and their distribution points. Globocnik's method's were amateurish and chaotic by comparison to Kammler's organization. Globo was a brick mason and foreman while Dr. Kammler was a military engineer. Both were equally fanatical and ruthless when it came to wartime service for the Reich. This was drawn in 1942. As you can see there are a lot of Baustofflagern that are West of Bialystock. Durchgangslagern fed these Building Camps with their raw materials: prisoner labor.
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Post by David Thompson » 14 May 2003 16:28

Scott -- Thanks for an intelligent and thought-provoking post.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 14 May 2003 20:36

Scott Smith wrote:
1. Court experts and historians who have assessed the documentary evidence concluded that all pertinent documents – correspondence among officials as well as train schedules, timetables and other transportation documents – clearly point to Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka as the final destinations. There is not a single document, however detailed, that even hints at the Jews taken to these camps going any further. Why would this be so if the camps were "transit camps" en route to the occupied territories of the Soviet Union?
That they necessarily had to have been taken to the Soviet Union to be "settled" is a straw man.
Smith should have read the Korherr Report before opening his big mouth. It is stated there that the Jews processed through the camps in the General Government were taken “to the Russian East”. So either there’s evidence that they ended up there, or the term – which replaced the original “special treatment” at Himmler’s behest, by the way – was meant to cover up what really happened to them.
Scott Smith wrote:Sure, that's what the Wannsee document said was going to happen after they were worked to death during the war, but how much of that went according to plan, who knows?


Smith should also have read the protocol of the Wannsee Conference, where it is stated that the Jews able to work would be taken to the east to work, which was expected to lead to a “natural” reduction of their numbers, the most resistant survivors then being “treated accordingly”. It omits what was to be done with those not able to work, but it is implicit from the context that they were to be killed out of hand. And killing was what the participants of the Wannsee Conference talked about in rather plain terms, according to Eichmann ‘s deposition at his trial in 1961.
Scott Smith wrote: The short answer is we don't know what happened to them--if anything.
Bolded nonsense is still nonsense. Uncertainty could be claimed if it were not for the documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence to mass killing at the places in question and the absence of evidence to survival. Given the evidence, “we don’t know” is a rather sorry assertion.
Scott Smith wrote: Little Tsvi Nussbaum, the Ghetto Boy in the famous photo, survived the clearing of the ghetto and is now a New York physician.
Nussbaum was never taken to any of the “Aktion Reinhard(t)” camps; he was taken to Bergen-Belsen as a hostage to be traded against German nationals captive abroad. And even if he had been taken to those camps, he would be just one out of a handful of survivors, together with the few who managed to escape during the revolts at Treblinka and Sobibor and half a dozen who got alive out of Belzec, the only people traced so far who entered these camps and came out alive.
Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:2. The rail line leading to Treblinka was a sidetrack of the line going from Warsaw to Bialystok in Northeast Poland. Bialystok was the closest point to the Soviet Union, anyone from Treblinka being resettled in the Soviet occupied territory had to pass through there. Yet a German railroad table for Bialystok shows Jews being taken from there to Treblinka, with the empty cars returning to Bialystok. In other words, they were being moved away from the Soviet territories by being sent to Treblinka. Why was this so?
First, your premise was that they necessarily had to urgently go to the Soviet Union.
I’m looking forward to other theoretically possible alternatives. Which should be rather hard to find, however, given that official documents such as the protocol of the Wannsee Conference and the Korherr Report spoke of deportation to the Soviet Union (“to the Russian East”, in the parlance of the Korherr Report).
Scott Smith wrote:All Wannsee wanted to make sure of was that the Reich would be Judenfrei and that the sexes were separated so that their population would not increase with dependents while they were forced to labor for the Reich while at war.
Smith should read the protocol of the Wannsee Conference indeed. I doubt he will then be able to show us what passages therein support his contentions, but I’d sure like to see him try.
Scott Smith wrote:We don't know how many actually entered the gates of Treblinka II.
We can establish it with a great degree of accuracy on hand of the available documentary evidence, as a matter of fact. Regarding the Jews from the General Government taken there until 31.12.1942, we even have a clearly documented total figure, the 713,555 that Höfle reported to Heim on 11 January 1943.
Scott Smith wrote:And all that gravel mined at the quarry of Treblinka I (about 2 km away) didn't get put on the Polish roads by elves or space aliens.
No, it was processed by a labor force of several thousand people. I hope Smith is not trying to tell us that they needed 713,555 people within half a year to mine gravel. That’s a lot more than were used in the building of the Soviet combine of Magnitogorsk if I’m not mistaken. I don’t know if any construction of mining project in history ever involved so enormous a labor force, but the little quarry at Treblinka I can impossibly have required more than a tiny fraction of that.
Scott Smith wrote:Furthermore, while TII is a postage stamp-sized lot, "Treblinka" might have meant an area, much like Auschwitz was an "archipelago," as Solzhenitsyn said the Kolyma labor camp region was in Siberia. Planet Auschwitz, for example, was a complex of three major camps and numerous satellite camps like Schindler's Plaszow. Treblinka had two camps and there is the town Treblinka, station Treblinka, the town Malkinia, and Malkinia station, etc. TII is right on the main rail line so a good place for a transit camp, assuming they could have been sent anywhere.
Blah, blah, blah. Even the enormous complex of Auschwitz-Birkenau never housed more than 100,000 people at a time, if I remember correctly. And there was nothing comparable to the industrial installations of the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex in the Treblinka area. Or can Smith show us evidence to the contrary, evidence which should exist if the Treblinka camps had ever served mining or industrial installations of the size of those around Auschwitz-Birkenau?
Scott Smith wrote:About all we really know is that the Reinhardt camps were built as Durchgangslagern or transit-camps.
Really?

Where do “we” know that from, Smith?

Show us the documentary evidence, please.
Scott Smith wrote:D-Lagers sprang up all over the place as labor was allocated. In this case the Jews of the Ghetto were relieved of their valuables and street clothing and probably deloused and given prisoner clothes.
Probably this, probably that, with not a shred of evidence that Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec were this kind of camps. I actually wonder how many such “D-Lagers” Smith can name at all and what evidence to their use as place of transit en route to somewhere else (where else?) he can show us.
Scott Smith wrote:When they got where they were going they were probably deloused again to control epidemics.
And where was that, Smith, “where they were going” ? Why is there not a shred of evidence to their arrival at those fantastic destinations? Did the Jewish World Conspiracy destroy the evidence, induce 1.5 million people into keeping silent about what really had happened to them and blackmail all German officials who organized and carried out said transportation to “where they were going” into keeping silent about it even where this meant their being sentenced to death or long-term imprisonment?
Scott Smith wrote:The simplest delousing was to be doused in kerosene.
Interesting, but hardly relevant to the discussion at hand.
Scott Smith wrote:In any case, the testimony describes numerous persons dead-on-arrival at TII and the ill killed by gunshot.
Looks like Smith relies on testimony where it fits his arguments and dismisses testimony where it doesn’t. Interesting attitude.
Scott Smith wrote: Without locating the mass-grave and doing some real forensic archaeology it is unlikely that we will know more.
More bolded baloney, given that all documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence (contrary to what Smith would like to believe, the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland investigated the Treblinka burial site in 1945, where it found ashes and other human remains throughout an area of more than 20,000 square meters, buried to a depth of 7.5 meters) converges on the conclusion that almost every Jew who entered the place was murdered there.
Scott Smith wrote: Maybe there is a smoking-gun in Soviet archives but it is not likely. Even if we found the Donation of Constantine in some archive somewhere, or even preserved in a cave, we would still be wise to suspect it because forgery is one of the oldest and commonest of crimes.
No need to look in the Soviet archives, there’s already documentation enough – the Korherr Report, Höfle’s report to Heim, Ganzenmüller’s letter to Wolff and other reports and correspondence among the organizers of the slaughter, together with lots of transportation documents all of which point to Treblinka as a final destination. If true believer Smith should wish to allege forgery in regard to any of these documents, the burden of proof will be on him.
Scott Smith wrote:
3. The resettlement of ca. 1.5 million people in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union would have been a complex operation, requiring hundreds if not thousands of German officials to carry it out and at least as many people involved in building projects. Yet no one has ever come forward to testify about such a resettlement, even though this would have made an ideal defense at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial and subsequent trials. Former high-ranking transportation specialists in Germany during the war did not offer Soviet resettlement as a defense in post-war trials, even though they denied having known the real purpose of the train transport. No war crimes defendant actually offered resettlement as a defense, even those who denied knowledge of the genocide. Why was this so?
Strawman, again.
What’s that supposed to mean? Another of Smith’s meaningless catchwords?
Scott Smith wrote: I never said anything about resettlement.
No, the Korherr Report did. Smith’s contention is even more obviously false, for he expects us to believe that a quarry required a labor force of more than 700,000 people within half a year. :lol:
Scott Smith wrote: I think it is likely that some Jews in what at one time or another was territory ruled by the Nazis "escaped" to Russia—
Oh, you think it is likely. I don’t care what you think, Smith. I’m only interested in what you can show us by way of evidence. So far, zero.
Scott Smith wrote: because I don't see how the Nazis could have gotten ahold of more than five million, but I don't know. Demography isn't my area of interest or competence.
Then where did you get those five million from, my dear self-contradictory true believer? Certainly not from the Wannsee Conference Protocol or the Korherr Report, which if I remember correctly consider somewhere between 8 and 9 million Jews in the countries and regions the Nazis got hold of – quite in line with posterior demographic research.
Scott Smith wrote:
4. As becomes apparent from a number of documents regarding the “economic aspects” of “Operation Reinhard” (alternatively spelled “Reinhardt” or “Reinhart”, I’ll use the “Reinhard” spelling for convenience in the following), the Jews taken to Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka were stripped of all their belongings there, including their clothing. Why would that have been done if they were going to be resettled – unless “resettlement” was to be to a place where they would need no clothing anymore?
Wannsee says that the resettlement will be done at their own peril and it seems perfectly logical to me that they would "tax" them heavily for this (or for nothing at all).
Wannsee again. Can we see the passages of the protocol that Smith derived his contentions from, please?
Scott Smith wrote: They would get some work out of them and they didn't give a fig how many survived the war.
Yeah, but if they sent them on stark naked they would hardly even get work out of them, quite apart from the fact that most of the deportees from the General Government, as pointed out by Buehler at the Wannsee Conference and by Goebbels in his diary entry of 27-03-1942, were not able to work. Next one.
Scott Smith wrote: As the war went worse for the Germans, so the attitude hardened towards those they saw as their enemy aliens lodged subversively in their midst.
Yeah, sure. I presume that’s why they commenced the wholesale slaughter of Soviet Jews at a time when they were at the height of their power and expected the Soviets to be finished soon, right?
Scott Smith wrote: If we are asked to believe that the Germans could work Jews to death in a matter of months on labor gangs, as long as they though their slave-labor resource was inexhaustible, then why is it so hard to believe that this is where hundreds of thousands "went"?
Because working to death was the fate accorded only to the minority of Jews able to work, and because the evidence clearly shows that those not able to work were bumped off right away, my dear true believer. Try to think once in a while, even if your articles of faith are at issue. I’m sure you can. :D
Scott Smith wrote: The science fiction of death in gaschambers constructed by Rube Goldberg methods, on postage stamp-sized lots, is what beggars discription.
It’s “science fiction” only in the minds of true believers, and while it beggars description indeed (like a great many events in human history do) conclusive and coincident evidence shows that it was exactly in this manner, which had certain advantages over mass shooting from the killers’ point of view, that those who were or became unable to work were dispatched.
Scott Smith wrote: Remember that in wartime-rumor delousing and cremation was mistaken for homicidal gassing.
Not that it matters, but I doubt Smith can show us a single documented instance of delousing having been mistaken for homicidal gassing.
Scott Smith wrote: We see this in the term Gas-Oven commonly used in the Forties and Fifties.
Looks like someone bunched together the gas chambers and the crematoria, which may be related to the fact that at Auschwitz-Birkenau both were often housed in the same building. So what?
Scott Smith wrote: People used to commit suicide with gas from their kitchen ovens because it had a high carbon monoxide content in those days.
Maybe that’s where the killers got the idea of mass murder by gassing from.
Scott Smith wrote:Anyway, Gerstein said that the 25 million deloused during the war were homicidally gassed--or maybe his Allied interrogators fudged a little on what he really said, which just happens to be congruent to how many the German fumigation experts said were deloused by 1944 in their wartime technical journals. Why not 23 million or 27 million Genocided by gas? Dream big.
Why does Smith always come up with Gerstein, a witness known to be fantasy-prone and highly unreliable, when there were dozens if not hundreds of more objective witnesses who provided detailed and coincident descriptions of what his love for the Führer requires him to believe never happened?
Scott Smith wrote:Indeed, all 60 million killed during the war were gassed by the Nazis! There are no resettlement camps for them; prove me wrong.
Smith should stop lamely fishing for parallels and remember the Korherr Report, where it was expressly stated that those Jews who ended up at the Reinhard(t) camps were deported to the “Russian East”.
Scott Smith wrote: It's a given that those soldiers listed as missing-in-action were gassed by the Nazis. Otherwise, show me their bodies? And that must also mean the Japanese and German POWs that were worked to death by the Soviets after the war. Blame those on those clever National Socialists too.
Sometimes Smith’s apples-and-oranges comparisons are too imbecile to even deserve being addressed. This is one of those occasions.
Scott Smith wrote:
5. Why would the Nazis, concerned as they were about preserving their own resources and robbing the Jews of everything they had, have invested large sums of money – far more than the costs of the killing operation, which are exactly known from Globocnik’s correspondence with Himmler – into a resettlement project? Or are the Jews supposed to have been simply shoved across the border and left there to die of starvation, exposure and disease? If so, wouldn’t that be similar to the way Stalin got rid of the “kulaks” and no less a crime than the mass killing at the extermination camps?
Who says they did or didn't?
Evidence to active killing and absence of evidence to Stalin-style dumping, my dear friend. As simple as that.
Scott Smith wrote: As far as crimes, well there is a political dimension here. I would regard anything that did not at the time appear to legitimately put every ounce of effort into winning the war to be a case of "unecessary force." And I do not believe that war should be fought with unecessary force, brutality, shock/awe, whatever you choose to call it.
Yep, dictators are entitled to do what ordinary citizens are not, in Smith’s book. They may kill their citizens or those of countries they conquer as they see fit.
Scott Smith wrote: But adjudicating that …, especially when it is winner-take-all.
How about sparing us the sermons on your world-view and staying focused on the subject, Smith?
Scott Smith wrote: No, I don't like what the Germans did to the Jews. …I will not accept any political truths just because we want to or don't want to agree with professional martyrs.
What goes on inside Smith’s mind is well-known to whoever has read his rubbish for a while, so he there’s no need for him to repeat it on every inappropriate occasion.
Scott Smith wrote: I said years ago when we first started to debate the diesel problem that the Nazis could have used gasoline engines. You resisted that notion with all fours (and I can get the exact words if we have to).
Well, if Smith had said “I don’t think they used diesel engines, but gasoline engines instead”, we would never have had a beef. But what the fellow tried to make believe was that i) diesel engines were out of the question and ii) that this meant not what elementary logic suggests (i.e. that one or the other witness was mistaken about a minor detail) but that no mass killing occurred at all. I don’t care much about i), but whoever among our readers thinks I should have nodded to the fathomless crackpot nonsense mentioned under ii) is kindly invited to speak up.
Scott Smith wrote: It is not important, however, since I am not saying that this was what happened.
I don’t care what Smith says or doesn’t say. What I duly take note of is that he again has miserably failed to provide a convincing answer to five questions he should be able to answer if his “skepticism” were to carry any weight.
Scott Smith wrote: I myself consider it far more likely than flying-saucer abductions but only a little farther.
What Smith himself considers is of no relevance. What he could demonstrate might be – but I haven’t seen anything in that direction yet.
Scott Smith wrote:
6. Why were there so many dead bodies at Treblinka in October of 1942 that they could not be sufficiently buried, thus creating a stench that befouled the air as far as Ostrow, 20 kilometers away, which led the local Wehrmacht commander to raise an official complaint about that stench?
TII very likely was used for body-disposal. I don't think they burned "more than" the canonical 700-875 thousand there, as has been suggested, but until the mass-grave is located (which shouldn't be hard) we have no way of knowing.
Smith doesn’t even address my question, which relates to a time when there were so many bodies at Treblinka that they could not be sufficiently buried, bringing about a stench that carried twenty kilometers across the land (one of the reasons why they decided to disinter and incinerate the corpses). Were there so many dead on arrival that they couldn’t properly bury them in an area that, with more than 20,000 square meters, would have been more than sufficient to avoid this environmental problem? Or are we asked to believe that they shipped dead Jewish bodies to a small far-away place from all over Poland instead of burying them where they died, only to find themselves faced with the embarrassing situation of not being able to bury them well enough to avoid contaminating the environment?
Scott Smith wrote: Tom Moran says: "two guys with two shovels."
Then tell your fellow true believer that thirty guys with shovels found human remains buried to a depth of 7.5 meters in a burial area of more than 20,000 square meters in 1945.
Scott Smith wrote:An investigation must be done under international auspices and by experts and with full disclosure of all data and reports.
Why so, Smith?

Has criminal justice or historiography ever required such an investigation in regard to any other occurrence of mass murder?

Is the documentary and eyewitness evidence not conclusive enough by itself?

Does the documentary and eyewitness evidence speak against the accuracy of the site investigation in 1945 by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland, or vice-versa?

Or are you asking for the kind of investigation that has never taken place in regard to any case of mass murder and is not likely to ever take place in regard to this or any other case, so that you can shoot your “we don’t know what happened” – baloney ad eternum?
Scott Smith wrote:A few bones or human remains is not an investigation to crow about. No comprehensive investigation was ever done, not even under Communist auspices.
Dead wrong, Smith. The data provided by the Central Commission, whether “comprehensive” enough for your dubious taste or not, contain all we need to know in order to establish whether the documentary and eyewitness evidence is contradicted or confirmed by the physical evidence. My calculations based on these data clearly show the latter, as you well know, and I still have to see Smith or anyone else proving them to be incorrect.
Scott Smith wrote:Eventually I intend to get the Central Commission report from the Library of Congress but I'm confident that if there was a smoking-gun it would have been widely disseminated by now.
Actually this “smoking gun” – one of many, in this case – can be found on the internet, as Smith knows all too well.
There are also other traces. For example, in the north-eastern part, over a surface covering about 2 ha. (5 acres),
there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues.

As a result of an examination made by an expert it was found that ashes were the remains of burnt human bones. The examination of numerous human skulls found in the camp has shown that they bear no traces of external injuries. Within a radius of several hundred yards from the camp site an unpleasant smell of burnt ash and decay is noticeable, growing stronger as one approaches.
From the report by the Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland. Warsaw, 1946

Source:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpoltreb1.htm
In the area where the gas chambers were supposed to have been located, the commission's team of 30 excavation workers reportedly found human remains, partially in the process of decay, and an unspecified amount of ash. Untouched sandy soil was reached at 7.5 meters, at which point the digging was halted. An accompanying photograph of an excavated pit reveals some large bones. (note 63)

Poland's Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes reported that large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues, were found in the five acre (two hectare) burial area during an examination of the site shortly after the end of the war. (note 64)
The investigations by the Central Commission as referred to in an article by "Revionists" Mark Weber and Andrew Allen.

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... linka.9605

Which doesn’t keep the inveterate liar from tying to bullshit our readers for the umpteenth time, of course.
Scott Smith wrote:That is why I haven't bothered to get the Neely and Witton affidavits from the law library yet (although I intend to someday). I'm confident if there was a smoking-gun (or something looking like one) on Human Soap manufacture it would be published at Nizkor already. (Besides, law librarians are kind of a surly bunch since they deal with lawyers all the time.)
If you want to have another boring conversation on your “human soap” article of faith, open another thread, buddy. Too much of your nonsense on this one is off-topic already.
Scott Smith wrote:
7. How many whole bodies, and how many bodies reduced to ashes and other partial remains, fit into pits 7.5 meters deep in the burial area more than 20,000 square meters long and wide that was found after the war by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland? Was there room enough for, say, the 713,555 Jews from the General Government taken to Treblinka until 31.12.1942, according to the Höfle memorandum, or was there not?
Another strawman argument.
Meaningless catchwords are Smith’s best shot, as usual.
Scott Smith wrote:How many Jews can you fit on the head of a pin? I don't know. Without *meaningful* quantification it is hard to say. The human body is mostly water. If you get rid of the water and turn most of the carbon into carbon dioxide and drive it off into the atmosphere you are still left with quantities of chemicals that are not going anywhere. I'm confident that legitimate forensic analysis will tell us whether the human remains that must be there (though haven't been found yet) is actually in the ballpark for the demographic disappearance that Holo-historians are claiming is the ipso facto proof of death-by-diesels (or whatever weapon of mass-imagination).
Such legitimate forensic analysis as there was has already told us all we need to know, so cut out the crap and answer my question. Was the burial capacity of Treblinka established by the Central Commission’s site investigation compatible with the death toll that becomes apparent from the documentary evidence (not just from demographics), or was it not?
Scott Smith wrote:If the figure were too high by a factor of ten, say 70 thousand, it would certainly affect the historiography and the more we know the better. But if it were off by a factor of a hundred? Who knows? Not investigating is the worst outcome. Moral Certainty is a rape upon the rational mind. And I don't care whose loved ones are in those mass-graves that haven't been found yet (along with Elvis and the "Artesians"). In any case, I don't think "Artesian" teeth are going to disappear without a trace by bonfires any more than "undesirable" aliens did in 1942-43.
A lot of meaningless blah-blah-blah to avoid answering a very simple question. The Treblinka burial area, all over which the Central Commission found ashes and other partial human remains, was more than 20,000 square meters large, and the depth to which human remains were found by the Commission’s excavation team suggests that the pits into which the bodies were dumped before being disinterred and incinerated were 7.5 meters deep. Was it possible to accommodate the bodies of the 713,555 Jewish arrivals at Treblinka mentioned in Höfle’s report to Heim of 11 January 1943 within the available burial space, or was it not?
Scott Smith wrote:This is a map drawn by Dr. Kammler showing his slave-labor gangs and their distribution points. Globocnik's method's were amateurish and chaotic by comparison to Kammler's organization. Globo was a brick mason and foreman while Dr. Kammler was a military engineer. Both were equally fanatical and ruthless when it came to wartime service for the Reich. This was drawn in 1942. As you can see there are a lot of Baustofflagern that are West of Bialystock.
Not that it matters given the “official” Nazi version that those going to Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor were being sent to the “Russian East”, but where do you see Treblinka on that map, Smith?

Is it there at all?

If so, is it identified as a building or transit camp?

Another thing, can you tell us how many people worked at all of Kammler’s building camps shown on the map?
Scott Smith wrote:Durchgangslagern fed these Building Camps with their raw materials: prisoner labor.
Slave labor here, Durchgangslager there. Not a shred of evidence that the main purpose of Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor was either. Not a chance that any industry or mine in the surroundings would need as a labor force even a tiny fraction of the hundreds of thousands of people sent to each of these camps. Not a shred of evidence that who entered these places was ever taken anywhere else, even though there would have been no reason for the Nazis to make such evidence disappear if the camps had actually been “Durchgangslager” feeding building camps with slave labor. All available evidence shows these camps to have been final destinations, and the overwhelming majority of arrivals there to have been people not eligible for slave labor in the first place.

So just who do you think you are fooling, Smith?

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 14 May 2003 20:41

David Thompson wrote:Scott -- Thanks for an intelligent and thought-provoking post.
Sometimes I have a problem understanding you, David.

Civility and fairness is all very fine, but is there a need to praise intellectual and moral refuse of the kind produced by Smith?

I'm assuming you merely intended to be nice and didn't go through all of Smith's post, otherwise your comment would surprise me even more.

If I should be wrong in this respect, however, please tell us what exactly you found to be so "intelligent and thought-provoking" in Smith's post.

Best regards,

Roberto

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Post by David Thompson » 14 May 2003 21:48

Roberto -- I thought Scott's post was civil and well-composed, and made his points in a clear and relatively detailed manner. Posts of this sort should be encouraged here, because they stimulate thought and discussion of historical issues. Such posts are greatly preferable to heated exchanges of slogans, insults and taunts, which degrade the quality of the forum.

As a moderator, the quality of this section of the forum is my principal concern. Factual documentation and well-argued posts bring out the best-reasoned responses. This gives the readers the opportunity to make up his or her own mind on the subject under discussion, with the best materials before them for their consideration.

Please note that I did not take a position on whether I agreed with the argument, or whether I found it persuasive. Appreciating the form of an argument and agreeing with its substance are two distinctly different propositions.
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Post by Roberto » 14 May 2003 21:57

David Thompson wrote:Roberto -- I thought Scott's post was civil and well-composed, and made his points in a clear and relatively detailed manner. Posts of this sort should be encouraged here, because they stimulate thought and discussion of historical issues. Such posts are greatly preferable to heated exchanges of slogans, which degrade the quality of the forum.

Please note that I did not take a position on whether I agreed with the argument, or found it persuasive.
I presumed that your post addressed the form rather than the contents of Smith's arguments, but didn't it occur to you that Smith might deliberately misinterpret your praise in exactly the sense mentioned in your last sentence, go bragging with it to others of his persuasion and inappropriately invoke it in his favor on a future occasion ?

P.S.

The above was written before you edited your post. The edited version took care of my concerns, thanks.
Last edited by Roberto on 14 May 2003 22:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Roberto » 14 May 2003 22:41

Scott Smith wrote:So the diesel engine is pumping IN oxygen UNLESS the engine is heavily-loaded.
Or unless the air intake is restricted and/or the fuel supply is considerably increased. Besides, Smith still has to show us that his fellow true believer Miller's thesis about "CO2 narcosis", which requires neither a load nor any mistuning of the engine, is wrong. When he has achieved this, I'll be convinced that the gassing engine in question can only have been a gasoline engine, and that witnesses who spoke of diesel must have confounded the killing device with another used for power generation or a similar purpose.

Haven't we been through this before? :D
Scott Smith wrote:Of course, the West German courts in the Sixties didn't think about that when they basically just got the Gerstein statement and rubber-stamped it with more "witnesses."
Smith is trying to tell us that West German courts blindly relied on Gerstein's account (at what trial was that introduced as evidence, Smith?) that other witnesses to the mass killings - including, of course, the defendants - produced invented (though amazingly coincident and often very detailed) "stories" for reasons beyond reasonable comprehension and that the judges, prosecutors and defense attorneys were so eager to "rubber-stamp" a certain version of events that they grievously violated their legal duties to critically assess the depositions of eyewitnesses and defendants through cross-examination, comparison with each other and checking against other sources of evidence.

Of course such manipulations of evidence and judicial fallacies only exist in the mind of a true believer in the virtues of National Socialism like Smith, who is as unable to produce even a shred of evidence in support of his articles of faith as he is unable to explain what delving into the details of the gassing engine would have contributed to the courts' findings about the identity of the criminals and their individual deeds and guilt, i.e. the issues that a criminal trial is all about.
Scott Smith wrote:The Israelis followed suit with the Demjanjuk trial and claimed that 875 thousand were killed with diesel engines. Nowadays it has been shown that there is a problem with the diesel engine story.
Or so Smith would like to believe. What he has not shown yet is that there ever was such a thing as a "diesel engine story", i.e. that it was ever an issue for a court or criminal justice authority what type of engine was used for gassing or that any relevance ever was or should have been attributed to such a minor detail.
Scott Smith wrote:And, thanks to Roques, whose Ph.D. was taken by the French government, the Gerstein affidavits have been thoroughly discredited by their exaggerations (which Holocaust historians have usually omitted because such details didn't fit the bubble), and by their inconsistencies. (Their are six sworn versions of the Gerstein statement.)
No need for a "Revisionist" freak like Roques to demonstrate what criminal justice authorities and historians concluded on long ago: that Gerstein was an unreliable witness whose statements could be used only insofar as corroborated by other, more reliable evidence. Killing paper dragon's seems to be a favorite "Revisionist" sport.
Scott Smith wrote:I never said that it was not possible to kill people with gasoline engines, as I have repeatedly stated, but to use diesel engines would require some serious head-scratching.
If so, this would mean the engine could only have been a gasoline engine. Big deal.
Scott Smith wrote:Unfortunately, however, there is only one account, from SS-Sgt. Erich Fuchs, that provides any detail that establishes for certain that the engine he claims to have installed for mass-murder at Sobibor was a gasoline type.
Indeed the other witnesses who, to Smith’s great discomfort, spoke of a gasoline engine or didn't mention the type of engine at all, didn't go into the detail Smith pretends he would like to see. And it tells us a lot about the "Revisionist" approach to evidence that Smith doesn’t bemoan a lack of detail where witnesses speak of diesel engines – on the contrary, the word "diesel" alone will start him on another of his endlessly repeated "technical" ramblings.
Scott Smith wrote:However, there are numerous other holes in the story and lack of detail. As I say, I would really like to cross-examine this guy!
Yeah, sure. As the deposition of Fuchs is inconvenient to Smith’s articles of faith, there must be something wrong with it. Smith will tell you that Fuchs didn’t describe the engine with the level of detail that a "true technician" (by Smith’s standards, of course) would have (assuming the court even had a reason to require such detail), or some rubbish like that.
Scott Smith wrote:He got a five-year sentence, relatively light for mass-murder it seems to me.
Of course Smith knows nothing about the benevolent so-called Gehilfenrechtsprechung of West German courts in trials related to Nazi mass murder, a harshly criticized jurisprudence which often allowed the perpetrators to get away with rather low sentences as mere "accessories to murder" if their claim that they had merely been following superior orders could not be refuted. Even though it has been mentioned more than once on this forum.
A problem, Smith calls it. And apart from seeing problems where there are none (while being persistently unable to answer to relevant questions), the fellow has no problem with discussing such "problem" with fellow true believers on a stinking propaganda sewer that allows no opposition. The Jonathan Swift mentioned in one of the threads, for instance, had his posts deleted and then was banned because the moderator feared the arguments and evidence he produced might be too much for the true believers to handle. Which of course didn’t keep Smith, ever the gentleman, from answering to the banned poster's deleted posts.
Scott Smith wrote:Now, finally, the diesel gas-van problem.
What "problem", again?

Well, small things worry small people’s minds, as they say.
Scott Smith wrote:If the van is sitting parked then the engine cannot be loaded. But this is how some of the victims were killed in the Soviet Krasnodar/Kharkov trials in 1943. The murder-vans were specifically described as Saurer vans AND as having diesel engines. The autopsy report said death by carbon monoxide. Since diesel engines cannot be "mistuned" to produce CO there is something wrong with the story.
Yep, the Soviets probably thought the vans had diesel engines because this was known to be the manufacturer’s standard issue (Smith still hasn’t shown us what evidence they based this conclusion on). If so, and if Smith is right about the unsuitability of diesel engines, the Soviet court erred in that it failed to consider the possibility, once mentioned by one of our posters, of custom-built models with gasoline engines – an assumption borne out by the fact that all witnesses and defendants before German courts I know of spoke of gasoline engines in the gas vans when they mentioned the type of engine at all, to Smith’s great discomfort. While there may be something wrong with the Soviet court’s findings in regard to a minor detail, there certainly is something wrong with the reasoning of who keeps trying to blow up such a fly into an elephant.
Scott Smith wrote:We have another story about vans pulled up and a hose run into a building used as a gas chamber at Chelmno.
We don’t have a "story" Smith. We have depositions of eyewitnesses and defendants before West German courts. Big difference.
Scott Smith wrote:his is of course possible unless the engines are diesels. One "sighting" says they were Renault vans and petrol engines.
Not a "sighting", but the deposition of a defendant on trial before a West German court.
Scott Smith wrote:But we have little else detail to establish credibility.
And why would "we" need such detail to establish "credibility" on an irrelevant minor issue that the defendant could have no reasonable interest in lying about and that in no way affected the court’s essential findings of fact?

Quite apart from the fact that Smith wouldn't be howling about lack of detail if Burmeister had spoken of a diesel engine, of course.
Scott Smith wrote:It is hard to know what to make of this unless we really want to Believe real bad.
I’d say there's no problem at all with taking evidence like Burmeister’s deposition for what it is unless you’re a "Revisionist" Hitler-kisser who really wants to Believe real bad that events so harmful to his beloved Führer’s reputation never happened.
Scott Smith wrote:Another SS-Lieutenant Colonel Rauff memo mentions Saurer vans,
What exactly does he say about these vans, Smith? Quote, please.
Scott Smith wrote:so there is some convergence of evidence--or not--since it is hard to know if this is independent convergence or just a confabulation of a mechanical version of familiar little green men.
Criminal justice authorities and historians thought otherwise than the all-knowledgeable Smith, who despite his professed omniscience has been unable so far to provide even an indication warranting suspicion of the "confabulation" he would like to believe in.
Scott Smith wrote:Or, in other words, the trademark of Saurer=Nazi murder-van takes shape after 1943 in the popular history. Pravda ran with the story and who knows what wartime rumors propagated...
Or so the "story" Smith would like to believe in takes shape in his confused mind, notwithstanding the fact that witnesses spoke of gasoline engines where they mentioned the type at all, that the vans referred to as "Saurer" may have been custom-built by Gaubschat with a Saurer chassis, that there were also "Diamond" vans which, according to Smith himself, often ran with gasoline engines, that West German courts cared pretty little about "popular history" and that the latter would have had no reason to make homicidal gasoline engines into homicidal diesel engines.
Scott Smith wrote:If really diesel, then the Soviet story at least cannot be right unless the vans were struggling up a hill with their load in the wrong gear.
When Smith has convinced us of this, we’ll have to conclude that the Soviet were wrong about the type of engine the gas vans had. Big deal.
Scott Smith wrote:It seems a rather awkward murder weapon to me
As anything affecting his beloved Führer’s reputation is bound to seem "rather awkward" to Smith, I wouldn’t recommend anyone to rely on his judgement.

And why should anyone care what seems awkward to Smith when there’s conclusive evidence to mass killing and the best he can hope to demonstrate is an irrelevant erroneous assumption about a detail of the killing device?

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 15 May 2003 10:18

In my last posts on this thread, I mentioned a number of documents related to the mass killings at the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps that many of our readers may not be familiar with.

The following are transcriptions and/or translations of these documents, or links to such transcriptions or translations, in chronological order.

The Protocol of the Wannsee Conference, 20 January 1942

A transcription of the original German document can be found under

http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanngerm.html

and an English translation under

http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html

The passages I referred to in my posts are translated as follows:
[…]Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews[my emphasis], separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes[my emphasis].

The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly[my emphasis], because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival[my emphasis] (see the experience of history.)

[…]

State Secretary Dr. Bühler stated that the General Government would welcome it if the final solution of this problem could be begun in the General Government[my emphasis], since on the one hand transportation does not play such a large role here nor would problems of labor supply hamper this action. Jews must be removed from the territory of the General Government as quickly as possible, since it is especially here that the Jew as an epidemic carrier represents an extreme danger and on the other hand he is causing permanent chaos in the economic structure of the country through continued black market dealings. Moreover, of the approximately 2 1/2 million Jews concerned, the majority is unfit for work.[my emphasis][…]


As Eichmann stated at his trial in Israel in 1961, it was his job a the man in charge of preparing the protocol to "translate" into aseptic euphemisms what the participants at the conference actually expressed in rather blunt terms:
[…]Presiding Judge: . . . Now in connection with the Wannsee conference, you answered my colleague Dr. Raveh that this part of the meeting, which is not mentioned in the protocol, the discussion was about the means of extermination, systems of killing.

A: Yes.

Q. Who discussed this subject?

A: I do not remember it in detail, Your Honour. I do not remember the circumstances of this conversation. But I do know that these gentlemen were standing together, or sitting together, and were discussing the subject quite bluntly, quite differently from the language which I had to use later in the record. During the conversation they minced no words about it at all. I might say furthermore, Your Honour, that I would not have remembered this unless I had later remembered that I told myself- Look here, I told myself, even this guy Stuckart, who was known as one of these uncles who was a great stickler for legalities, he too uses language which is not at all in accordance with paragraphs of the law. This incident remained engraved in my memory and recalled the entire subject to my mind.[my emphasis]

Q. What did he say about this subject?

A. In detail I do not-

Q. Not details in general, what did he say about this theme?

A. I cannot remember it in detail Your Honour, but they spoke about methods for killing, about liquidation, about extermination.[my emphasis] I was busy with my records. I had to make the preparations for taking down the minutes. I could not perk up my ears and listen to everything that was said. But it filtered through the small room and I caught fragments of this conversation. It was a small room so from time to time I heard a word or two.

Q. I believed that this was the official part of the meeting, of the conference.

A. The official part did not take too long.

Q. Was this in the official part of the conference, or not? It was my belief that this was in the official conference because this should have been included in the protocol of the meeting, although nothing is mentioned.

A. Well of course, it was in the official part, Your Honour. But again this official part had two subdivisions. The first part where everyone was quiet and listened to the various lectures, and then in the second part, everyone spoke out of turn and people would go around, butlers, agitants, and would give out liquor. Well, I don't want to say that there was an atmosphere of drunkardness there. It was an official atmosphere, but nevertheless it was not one of these stiff, formal, official affairs where everyone spoke in turn. But people just talked at cross vertices.

Q. And were these also recorded by the short-hand typists?

Accused: Yes, yes-they were taken down.

Presiding Judge: And you were ordered by someone not to include it in the memorandum of the meeting- in the official Protocol of this meeting, weren't you?

Accused. Yes, that's how it was. The stenographer was sitting next to me and I was to see to it that everything would be taken down; then she deciphered this and then Heydrich gave me his instructions as to what should be included in the record and what should be excluded. Then I showed it to Heydrich and he polished it up and proof-read it and that's how it was kept.

Q. And that which was said about this very important theme, you cannot remember at all- is this what you say?

A. Well, the most important thing here was....

Q.I did not say, the most important- I said it was an important theme, and important enough to be excluded from the record.

A. Well, no. The significant part from Heydrich's point-of-view, was to nail-down the Secretaries of State, to commit them most bindingly, to catch them by their words; and therefore, it was quite the contrary- the important part did go into the record and the less significant ones were excluded. It was, I would say, that Heydrich wanted to cover himself, wanted to be sure that each and every one of these Secretaries of State would be nailed-down- and these matters, therefore, were put down.

Q. That means to say that the methods of killing- the systems of extermination- was not an important theme?

A. Ah! the means of killing....

Q. That is what we are speaking about- the means of killing.

A. No, no- this of course was not put into the record-no, no!
[my emphasis]

Q. Did they discuss killing by poison gas?

A. No, with gas-no.

Q. But, how then?

A. It was ... this business with the engine, they spoke about this; they spoke about shooting, but not about gas.

Q. Later, the Protocol goes on to say, in the same passage, that Gauleiter Mayer and Secretary of State Dr. Bühler (?) believed and were of the opinion, that certain preparations, for implementation in various districts, be made at the same time; certain preparatory work in connection with the "final solution" should be made immediately, in the discussed areas, but unrest amongst the population should be avoided. Can you remember this?

A. What did you mean, Your Honour-I did not understand it.

Q. You did not understand? All right-I will read it out to you once again: Dr. Mayer and Dr. Biffiler-that their opinion was that preparatory work should begin immediately for the " Final solution" in the various areas, but at the same time to avoid unrest and anxiety on the part of the population.

A. Ah, yes....

Q. To which preparatory work does this refer?

A. I cannot imagine anything, but....

Q. Don't imagine! My question is-and I put it to you, as the Attorney-Gencral put it to you before and all the time-what can you remember? This was a turning point, in fact.

A. I was there and I witnessed the preparatory work, with these two little houses in the Lublin area.

Q. Which two little huts in the Lublin area? I'm asking you this question about the Conference.

A. Well, I had seen the preparatory work before-in fact, but I don't really know. They spoke about the matter, at the meeting, of not creating any anxiety and perplexity amongst the local population, so all I thought was being discussed, was this same kind of business.
[my emphasis]

Q. And did you report what you saw to this Conference?

A. At the Wannsee Conference No, I never uttered a syllable; I was not authorized to open my mouth. No, I had no permission.

Q. So, who was it, who brought the technical details to the Conference?

Accused: Well no-one discussed the technical details. That is to say, Heydrich opened the meeting and then everyone spoke about it. Well, I mean maybe Büller (Bühler) spoke about it or possible Krueger- I suppose he would have- he was the senior SS and Police Commander in the Government General. In a way he was the head of ihe entire business, in charge of it. Globocnik was subordinated to this man Krueger. Krueger, as the boss, must have known it in detail.[…]
Source of quote:

http://www.aihgs.com/doc22.htm


Goebbels’ diary entry of 27 March 1942

This diary entry is translated as follows under

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goe ... 942-mar-27 :
Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.[my emphasis]

The former Gauleiter of Vienna, who is to carry this measure through, is doing it with considerable circumspection and according to a method that does not attract too much attention. A judgment is being visited upon the Jews that, while barbaric, is fully deserved by them. The prophesy which the Fuehrer made about them for having brought on a new world war is beginning to come true in a most terrible manner.[my emphasis] One must not be sentimental in these matters. If we did not fight the Jews, they would destroy us. It's a life-and-death struggle between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus. No other government and no other regime would have the strength for such a global solution of this question. Here, too, the Fuehrer is the undismayed champion of a radical solution necessitated by conditions and therefore inexorable.[my emphasis] Fortunately a whole series of possibilities presents itself for us in wartime that would be denied us in peacetime. We shall have to profit by this.

The ghettoes that will be emptied in the cities of the General Government now will be refilled with Jews thrown out of the Reich. This process is to be repeated from time to time. There is nothing funny in it for the Jews, and the fact that Jewry's representatives in England and America are today organizing and sponsoring the war against Germany must be paid for dearly by its representatives in Europe - and that's only right.

Letter by Ganzenmüller, Secretary of State at the Ministry of Transport, to Himmler’s adjutant Wolff of 27 July 1942, and Wolff’s reply
[...]Dr. Ganzenmüller responded to Himmler’s request, and in a letter to Karl Wolff on July 27, 1942, wrote:
Since July 22, a train load of 5,000 Jews has departed daily from Warsaw via Malkinia to Treblinka, and in addition a train load of 5,000 Jews has left Przemysl twice a week for Belzec[my emphasis] …
Gedob is in constant contact with the Security Police in Cracow. It has been agreed that the transports from Warsaw through Lublin to Sobibor be suspended for as long as the reconstruction works on that section make those transports impossible (approximately until October 1942). These trains have been agreed upon with the commander of the Security Police in the General Government, and SS-Brigadeführer Globocnik has been adviser.

Heil Hitler!

Yours faithfully,

[Ganzenmüller]
In reply, Wolff wrote Ganzenmüller on August 13, 1942: "Hearty thanks, in the name of the Reichsführer SS, for your letter of July 28, 1942. With great joy I learned from your announcement that, for the past fourteen days, a train has gone daily to Treblinka with 5,000 ‘members of the chosen people’ (Angehörige des auserwählten Volkes)[my emphasis]."[...]
Source of quote: Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, page 51

Höfle’s report to Heim of 11 January 1943

The following radio message by Sturmbannführer Höfle to Obersturmbannführer Heim in Cracow was intercepted on 11 January 1943 by the British decoding service at Bletchley Park:
13/15. OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250
Geheime Reichssache! An den Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspol., zu Händen SS Obersturmbannführer HEIM, KRAKAU. Betr. 14-tägige Meldung Einsatz REINHART. Bezug: dort. Fs. Zugang bis 31.12.42, L 12761,B 0, S 515, T 10335 zusammen 23611. Stand ... 31.12.42, L 24733, B 434508, S 101370, T 71355, zusammen 1274166.
SS und Pol.führer LUBLIN, HOEFLE, Sturmbannführer.
Source of quote:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Hofle

On a thread of the old Ezboard forum, our fellow poster Charles Bunch told us the following about this message:
In the Winter 2001 issue of _Holocaust and Genocide Studies_ Peter Witte and Stephen Tyas write of a newly discovered document, found among recently declassified material at the Public Record Office in Kew, England. The document is an intercepted radio message from Lublin in the General Government, dated January 11, 1943. The message was sent by SS Major Hofle, SS staff member and Police leader in Lublin to SS Lieutenant Colonel Heim, deputy commander of the Security Police and SD for the General Government in Cracow. Hofle worked for Odilo Globocnik who was in charge of the implementation of Aktion Reinhardt, the 21 month effort to destroy the Jews of Poland.

A precis to the article reads:

"A recently discovered document sheds new light on "Einsatz Reinhardt", the murder of the Jews in the General Government. For the first time detailed statistics on the 1942 killings in the extermination camps of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, and in the Concentration Camp Lublin - Majdanek, as compiled by Nazi officials, are available. The reliability of the numbers appears confirmed by a consideration of the related research of other historians. The authors analyze the document in its wider historical context, raising issues that call for further research."

==============

[The Document]


13/15. OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250

State Secret!

To the Senior Commander of the Security Police [and the Security Service], for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuhrer HEIM, CRACOW.

Subject: fortnightly report Einsatz REINHART.
Reference: radio telegram therefrom.


recorded arrivals until December 31, 42,

L [Lublin] 12,761,
B [Belzec] 0,
S [Sobibor] 515,
T [Treblinka] 10 335 [,]

together 23 611

sum total…[as per] December 31, 42,

L 24 733,
B 434 508,
S 101 370,
T 71 355, read: 713 555]

together 1 274 166

SS and Police Leader Lublin, HOFLE, Sturmbannfuhrer

========================

Two interesting points about this document.

1. The total of 1,274,166 matches the total offered by Richard Korherr in his statistical report for Himmler _ Final Solution of the European Jewish Problem_ of April 1943. Using the words Himmler had suggested as a replacement for "Sonderbehandlung" (Special Treatment), Korherr wrote:

(quote)

4. Transportation of Jews from the Eastern Provinces to the Russian East:

Number of those who passed 1,449,693
through the camps in the General Government 1,274,166
through the camps in Warthegau 145,301

(end quote)

2. Since the murdering stopped in Belzec in December 1942, what we have in this document is a number which should approximate the total death toll for the camp. The total of 434,000 is below the most commonly accepted numbers and substantially below the recent suggestions of Robin O’Neil of 800,000 +.

The Korherr Report

My translation of the report on "THE FINAL SOLUTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWISH QUESTION", prepared for Himmler by his statistician Richard Korherr, can be read on the thread

The Korherr Report
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... e2970279ec

of this forum.

The passage referring to the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps and to Chelmno extermination camp was translated as follows:
[…]4. Transportation of Jews from the
eastern provinces to the Russian
East: ............................ 1 449 692 "
The following numbers were sifted
through the camps in the General
Government ............. ........ 1 274 166 Jews
through the camps in the Warthegau..... 145 301 Jews[…]
As pointed out in the article quoted by Charles Bunch, Korherr’s figure of 1,274,166 Jews allegedly transported "to the Russian East" via "the camps in the General Government" comes from Höfle’s report to Heim of 11 January 1943, which lists the total of Jews delivered at the camps of Aktion Reinhard(t) until 31.12.1942.

In the first version of the report, Korherr had truthfully written that these Jews had been submitted to "special treatment". By letter of 10 April 1943, however, Himmler instructed Korherr to refrain from using this euphemism for mass murder, which was becoming rather worn, and to adopt the wording translated above. A transcription of Himmler’s letter can be viewed under

http://www.ns-archiv.de/verfolgung/korh ... ml#himmler

My translation:
To the
Inspector for Statistics, party comrade Korherr
B e r l i n



The Reichsführer SS has received your statistical report about “The Final Solution of the European Jewish Question”. He wishes that in no place a “special treatment of the Jews” is referred to . On page 9, item 4, the wording must be the following

" Transportation of Jews from the
eastern provinces to the Russian
East: ............................
The following numbers were sifted
through the camps in the General
government .............
through the camps in the Warthegau....."

Another wording may not be used.
[my emphasis]
I send back the sample of the report already signed by the Reichsführer SS with the request to change this page 9 accordingly and to send it back.


SS-Obersturmbannführer
I think these documents speak for themselves and require no further commentary.

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Scott Smith
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Location: Arizona

Post by Scott Smith » 16 May 2003 04:17

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:And all that gravel mined at the quarry of Treblinka I (about 2 km away) didn't get put on the Polish roads by elves or space aliens.
No, it was processed by a labor force of several thousand people. I hope Smith is not trying to tell us that they needed 713,555 people within half a year to mine gravel. That’s a lot more than were used in the building of the Soviet combine of Magnitogorsk if I’m not mistaken. I don’t know if any construction of mining project in history ever involved so enormous a labor force, but the little quarry at Treblinka I can impossibly have required more than a tiny fraction of that.
You mine the gravel and then you spread it on roads all over Poland, see. I never said it took hundreds of thousands to shovel gravel at Treblinka. But if you look at Kammler's depots you can see that there are plenty of labor projects. And at a death rate of say 10% a month you need a lot of labor to feed this "machine."

It's not quite as sexy as gaschambers with peepholes but it "works."

One of the things that Professor Allen argues in his book The Business of Genocide is that the truth is actually far more sinister than the lies of Speer and the canonical story which makes the SS the "alibi" for a nation. Allen argues that far from the SS and Himmler trying to "infiltrate" German business, due to the war and the intolerable labor shortage, German industry actually came courting a reluctant SS, which would have preferred to use its cheap prisoner laborers simply to bake bricks in unremunerative and marginally-productive Buchenwald kilns and whatnot supplying its utopian housing settlements built to National Socialist concepts of aesthetics contrary to "the salesman's point-of-view."

With the war, however, all of that SS "can-do" spirit was translated into mobilizing the Reich's enemies for a maximum effort at victory, one wheelbarrow of concrete at a time. About 10,000 died digging the V-2 rocket assembly tunnels.

By way of comparison, when the Hoover Dam was built using cheap expendable workers during the Depression the offical death toll was 112 (although hundreds may have suffered health problems from exposure to diesel exhaust in the tunnels). The Hoover dam was built in the aesthetic of Art Deco and is also a rather impressive feat of engineering. No bodies buried in the concrete either according to the dam docents.

Image

Of course, contrary to popular belief about Speer's "apolitical technocrats" corrupted by Himmler, the meat-grinder of Nordhausen was not built to any kind of SS aesthetic-standard other than a simple desire to win the war at any cost and complete unconcern for the internal enemies of the Reich (naturally).

Nor were all SS projects necessarily meat-grinders. The death-rate of the workers actually assembling the V-weapons was about the same as ordinary civilian production workers in other aspects of manufacture. The danger came more from Allied bombing than the SS in this case. Of course, if one got arbitrarily transferred to the gangs digging tunnels and building roads then...
8O

Zwangsarbeiter in action manufacturing V components at Planet Dora...
:)

Image

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