W-SS war crimes in Slovenia

POW · Post by **POW** » 27 Apr 2003 07:19

Kocjo wrote:Prime-minister was CVETKOVIC, not Cvetovic (under knez Pavle, the goverment of king's regent).

Ok, I misspelled his name and forgot to type the "K". Hope you wasn't too exited about my fault.

The overthrown on 27.3.1941 was made by brig. gen Mirkovic (CO of air staff; like Chef-Of-Staff of air force) and air-gen. Simovic (Commander-in-Chef of air force) and with a help of British secret service. Jugoslavija never resigned off the Pact, they even orally confirmed it, but before they could made a offical confirmation, Germany and other Axis forces attack Jugoslavia.

Where to wait for when a former ally acts jointly with the enemy (the Brits)? Or do you want to tell me that the new Yugoslavian government wanted to continue the treaty with the Axis?

DURING all of WWII, was in Jugoslavia, REGULAR army

A defeated army. Yugoslavia surrendered and a contention between organised armed forces did not longer exist. This implies that a resistance not supported by an organised government is criminal and deprives participants of belligerent status.

at first Partisans were illegal and after the treaty they were legal

Partisans were never legal.

K.Kocjancic · Post by **K.Kocjancic** » 27 Apr 2003 07:47

Or do you want to tell me that the new Yugoslavian government wanted to continue the treaty with the Axis?

Yap, there was a radio-messege, brodcasted on a Jugoslav radio about keeping the pact. The people (specially the cummunists weren't so happy and they started a street's rallies, with a slogan "Bolje rat, nego pakt" (Better war, than a pact)). Generals overthrown the Cvetkovic and they didn't want a war with Germany, because German army was several times superior to Jugoslav (specially in air force and Pazer-Truppen).

Do you know the Jugoslav battle (defend) plan of WWII? Četniki were recognized by the refugee Jugoslav goverment in Kairo, then in London.

Partisans were never legal.

After Vis they were.

POW · Post by **POW** » 27 Apr 2003 11:26

Kocjo wrote:
Partisans were never legal.
After Vis they were.

Like a child which wants to get one's way. Did you drub with your feets on the ground when you typed the answer above? When does it come to your little mind that partisans are irregular troops. They can't be legal.

Partisan badge in silver:

K.Kocjancic · Post by **K.Kocjancic** » 27 Apr 2003 12:30

Like a child which wants to get one's way. Did you drub with your feets on the ground when you typed the answer above?

You shouldn't said this things about yourself!

My knowledge of Jugoslav history is based on literature from Partisans and Domobranci.

You didn't answered my question, about your ties to Jugo.!

K.Kocjancic · Post by **K.Kocjancic** » 27 Apr 2003 12:32

OK, leats say, that Jugoslav Partisans were illegal. What about German Werewolf? Was this guerrilla org. legal or illegal?

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 27 Apr 2003 12:37

Let's keep a friendly tone.

/Marcus

Krasnaya Zvezda · Post by **Krasnaya Zvezda** » 28 Apr 2003 14:28

[quote="POW]
Wow, I'm impressed of this answer. You can't pick just one sentence you like but you have to see the whole story.[/quote]

Please drop that "wow" or similar expressions. It is childish and serves only to degenerate the discussion. You have pointed out to a millitary trial that deals with the issues discussed here, I had great pleasure of reading it in the last few days so stick to the evidences. Thanks a lot for that one more time. From what I have read, there are many instances where you take the sentance from the context and give false interpretations. And afgain, I did not pick one sentance from your post, but took everything and the paragraph that you posted is critical - German invasion of Yugoslavia was illegal.

The court also said that after the rules the shooting of partizans and hostages can be OK. Do you agree to this also? Or do you just pick the sentences you like?

I accept the shooting of the partisans (for hostages see below), isn't it great the paradox that we have here, illegal German invasion, response is illegal partisan groups and total haos as tribunal also is pointing. Accepting this would be accepting the chaos that was without doubt started by German invasion of Yugoslavia.
Again and again, I accept that some of the partisans groups were illegal as I accept the USA vs Wilhelm ruling. Accepting this ruling is the basis for the discussion and we all have to agree to accept the trial in full. I realize that you do not accept it the way the tribunal accepted it as I can see that you agree with shooting of the hostages also. The tribunal never accepted that. I tend to agree with the tribunal, so please stick to the evidence and post a rightful explanation and quotre from the tribunal. If one reads the statement given by the tribunal on hostage treatments it is beyond resonable doubt that is singling Germany over all other countries as an inappropriately brutal army without a match in a human history, that the tribunal does not agree with! The whole sentence is a shame for the German army as the tribunal is in part focusing on this matter.

Yogoslavia signed a treaty with Germany at 25 March 1941 in Vienna. The government under Cvetovic was overthrown by some jung officers of the air force and replaced with Simovic under King Peter II. Yugoslavia was apparently against the Axis and Hitler thought it was neccesary to lead a preventive war. Seems in modern times preventive wars are still not legal but accepted. However in 1948 the court came to the conclusion Germany led an agressive war.

Nonsense. Stick to the fact. You are accusing Kocjo of inappropriate evidences you are doing the same. The fact that somebody else is doing wrong does not justify wrong doing. If we accept your evidence than we have to accept the partisan treatment of German soldiers. Degeneration at its best, as German invasion has also showed it. The outcome could not have been different.

At 29. November 1944 the AVNOJ (Antifasistcko vece narodnog aslobodjenja Jogoslavije) made agreements for the new Yugoslavia. Early 1945 tha Yugoslavian Army was founded. So my question had to do if you know since when Germany was fighting against a regular Yugoslavian army.
Hitler was hesitant to order the withdrawal to the German border. So German troops stood at the day of the capitulation only 72 hours from the German border away. Only 72 hours to reach the British forces in Kärnten. But it was too late and so about 150.000 German sodiers came into Yugoslavian captivity - a death penalty for most of them. More than 50 precent died there. So the regular Yugoslavian army killed more German soldiers after the capitulation than bevore. Seems some Yugoslavien officers and soldiers had to be sentenced also?

The number of 75 000 German soldiers that died in Yu looks excessive. What does shooting of German soldiers after the war has to do with out discussion? Please focus on the subject. Yes, the communist were evil if this satisfies you, they did wrong, but again, we are talking about the crimes commited in the Balkans during the WWII, crimes started with the illegal German invasion. All the best.

K.Kocjancic · Post by **K.Kocjancic** » 28 Apr 2003 18:39

Let us start at the begining!

Do we all agree, that the German invasion on Jugoslavia was illegal?

Krasnaya Zvezda · Post by **Krasnaya Zvezda** » 29 Apr 2003 03:36

Kocjo wrote:Let us start at the begining!

Do we all agree, that the German invasion on Jugoslavia was illegal?

The tribunal admited that it was illegal. Yet the discussion was weather partisan actions were illegal and it looks like they were, though not completely as POW claims.

So , let us look from partisan stand point. They had to accept the illegal invasion and fight according to the regulations that Germany did not respected. Well, as the tribunal also admits, brutality just brings more brutality. Illegal repercussions bring more repercussion. They admit that by saying that Germany expects partisans to behave according to law yet they themselves are unwilling to abide to it. Now, weather Germans would behave differently had the partisans fought according to regulation? Well discussing that would be speculation and that leads us to nowhere. But in USSR where they fought regular army, they did not observe the law, and they were even more brutal than in the Balkans. That is what trubunal also wants to emphasize, that no country had match Germany in comitting illegal acts and brutality on the civillian population. It basically indirectly admits the gravity of the German army compare to the one of the partisans if this helps you.

To me the most interesting part was the question of hostages. I did not realize that under certain conditions they can be shot. Although the tribunal admited that if one follows the regulations that would be extremely difficult to do and regretts for not having stricter rules against shooting civillians. Again, there is in no way that the German army observed the regulations when shooting hostages and that is pretty tragic. If you have the chance read this case, it has also few lines on domobrani and some staff on Slovenia. Very interesting text. All the best.

POW · Post by **POW** » 29 Apr 2003 16:56

Krasnaya Zvezda wrote:Please drop that "wow" or similar expressions.

No!

It is childish and serves only to degenerate the discussion

That's your point of view. In my opinion your doting answer degenerated this discussion.

You have pointed out to a millitary trial that deals with the issues discussed here, I had great pleasure of reading it in the last few days so stick to the evidences. Thanks a lot for that one more time.

Glad I could be of help.

From what I have read, there are many instances where you take the sentance from the context and give false interpretations.

Oh, did I?

And afgain, I did not pick one sentance from your post, but took everything and the paragraph that you posted is critical - German invasion of Yugoslavia was illegal.

You declared one sentence as the key for an conclusion. Your own words.

I realize that you do not accept it the way the tribunal accepted it as I can see that you agree with shooting of the hostages also.

And again you are wrong.

If one reads the statement given by the tribunal on hostage treatments it is beyond resonable doubt that is singling Germany over all other countries as an inappropriately brutal army without a match in a human history, that the tribunal does not agree with! The whole sentence is a shame for the German army as the tribunal is in part focusing on this matter.

If one reads the statement given by the tribunal and the witnesses of it, there is no doubt that the Yogolavians were very brutal also. Now we can discuss who was first, the egg or the chicken but that would lead to nothing.

The fact that somebody else is doing wrong does not justify wrong doing.

Like wrong actions against an invasion which was wrong?

The number of 75 000 German soldiers that died in Yu looks excessive. What does shooting of German soldiers after the war has to do with out discussion? Please focus on the subject. Yes, the communist were evil if this satisfies you, they did wrong, but again, we are talking about the crimes commited in the Balkans during the WWII, crimes started with the illegal German invasion. All the best.

We were talking about the regular Yugoslavian army for a long time or not? I liked to prove that the Yugoslavian army was more succesfull in killing defenseless people than in the field. By the way, when we are talking about crimes in the Balkans, the fate af the unlucky German prisoners of war in Yugoslavian hand can not be spared out.

POW · Post by **POW** » 29 Apr 2003 17:24

Krasnaya Zvezda wrote:
Kocjo wrote:Let us start at the begining!

Do we all agree, that the German invasion on Jugoslavia was illegal?
The tribunal admited that it was illegal. Yet the discussion was weather partisan actions were illegal and it looks like they were, though not completely as POW claims.

Right. So far I know the German soldiers were the one and only senteced for leading an aggresive war until now. When look back at the last 60 years I can't believe that. Until today I see partisan like fights and reprisal killings. I think the criminals sentenced in Nuremberg deserved what they got. But I think also that the law counts for everyone and I still miss some persons to go on trial.

K.Kocjancic · Post by **K.Kocjancic** » 01 May 2003 08:17

According to Jugoslav war plan R-41 all of Jugoslav sturm troops should became Cetniki; they would go in illegal and still fought against enemy in the enemy's hinterland. So, Cetniki were legal, because they followed Jugoslav royal government.

Government ordered not to attack occupator's force, but to wait for Allied invasion and in the mean time they should strengthen their (Cetniki's) forces.

Partisans (formed by Jugoslav Communist Party) were illegal. They started fighting against occupators with-out support of Jugoslav government. The fight begun after the German invasion of USSR, when Kominterna ordered to all Communist Parties in Europe to start the fight. Simultanesly Communist started the freedom-fight (against Germans) and revolution (against Jugoslav government).

But if you see things from Jugoslav's people Partisans weren't illegal. They fought against occupator and for their land, culture,... They had all characteristic's of the regular army: uniforms, leadership, ranks, special units, means of supply,...

About the POW.
Partisans fought guerrilla war. They attack Germans, Italians,... from the ambushes and with that kind of fighting is no time for taking POW. Of course, they captured enemy soldiers, they interogated them, send them to work units (at the and of war), send them to partisans unit (if they were willing to fight against Hitler), exchanged them for theirs POW,... But we must confess, that the Partisans executed a lot of POW (specially from SS and reactionary forces). German army did these the same way.

Here's an example.
Partisans ambused German unit and killed 1 CO and 20 soldiers. German army then executed 1.100 hostages for killed soldiers. But then Partisans revenged and killed some more German soldiers. This was a circle of pain and war crimes.

Regards,
Kocjo

Krasnaya Zvezda · Post by **Krasnaya Zvezda** » 01 May 2003 15:29

Kocjo wrote:According to Jugoslav war plan R-41 all of Jugoslav sturm troops should became Cetniki; they would go in illegal and still fought against enemy in the enemy's hinterland. So, Cetniki were legal, because they followed Jugoslav royal government.

Government ordered not to attack occupator's force, but to wait for Allied invasion and in the mean time they should strengthen their (Cetniki's) forces.

Partisans (formed by Jugoslav Communist Party) were illegal. They started fighting against occupators with-out support of Jugoslav government. The fight begun after the German invasion of USSR, when Kominterna ordered to all Communist Parties in Europe to start the fight. Simultanesly Communist started the freedom-fight (against Germans) and revolution (against Jugoslav government).

But if you see things from Jugoslav's people Partisans weren't illegal. They fought against occupator and for their land, culture,... They had all characteristic's of the regular army: uniforms, leadership, ranks, special units, means of supply,...

About the POW.
Partisans fought guerrilla war. They attack Germans, Italians,... from the ambushes and with that kind of fighting is no time for taking POW. Of course, they captured enemy soldiers, they interogated them, send them to work units (at the and of war), send them to partisans unit (if they were willing to fight against Hitler), exchanged them for theirs POW,... But we must confess, that the Partisans executed a lot of POW (specially from SS and reactionary forces). German army did these the same way.

Here's an example.
Partisans ambused German unit and killed 1 CO and 20 soldiers. German army then executed 1.100 hostages for killed soldiers. But then Partisans revenged and killed some more German soldiers. This was a circle of pain and war crimes.

Regards,
Kocjo

You are right Kocjo. Small emphasize if you allow. We are talking about the decision of the tribunal here. Tribunal did not made the distinction between chetniks and partisans in terms of their succession to Yugoslavia or whatever. In the eye of the law anyone who fights the invador is legal. What made the resistance groups illegal was the WAY they were fighting the war. Therefore the tribunal concludes that SOME (not all) partisan groups were illegal. Chetniks had limited conflicts (combats) with Germans so we can not talk about weather they were fighting Germans illegaly or legaly. Remember the tribunal is call to judge on human right violations here, soldiers or civilians alike not as a political body.

Now having said that, the tribunal recognizes yoru stance, that if an illegal and brutal invasion unseen before in the human history occurs it is impossible for the defenders to fight according to the Hague conventions. Germany had superceeded everyone in their brutality and this is why calling to justice the resistance fighters looks akward and misplaced. If partisans are to be judged they I think should be judged by their own people cause they knew that Germans would kill civilians if their own soldier dies, many civilians died like that and it is a tough situation we have here, to fight the German invador and take the civilian victims or not to fight? What would you do? How can than a partisan expect to treat the German soldier according to Hague convention if he knows that the same has killed 100 civilians for each dead German? Fine, the Balkan war was brutal but the Germans have been with the eastern front the most brutal force in the Balkans that had no match in their actions in Western Europe.

So again, we have the same critical question here: The German invasion was illegal and most brutal one - can legal response be expected from the belligerents (defenders) than given also the limited uniform and arm supply and extremely difficult cirumstances in general?

Krasnaya Zvezda · Post by **Krasnaya Zvezda** » 01 May 2003 15:37

POW wrote:Right. So far I know the German soldiers were the one and only senteced for leading an aggresive war until now. When look back at the last 60 years I can't believe that. Until today I see partisan like fights and reprisal killings. I think the criminals sentenced in Nuremberg deserved what they got. But I think also that the law counts for everyone and I still miss some persons to go on trial.

I agree. All criminals have to be brought to justice. That is ideal. Problems are that humans are not ideal and nothing in the world is ideal. The reasons why it turned out less than ideal is:

1. The winner is never put on trial. This is a simple fact that has been obesrved , is observed and will be observed in human history. We can only speculate weather the victory of Germany would made Germany to punish its own army for killing so many civilians.

2. The atrocities comited by German soldeirs outshine by far any others comited on them. This was the most brutal war with hardest consequences initiated only by Germany. Immediately after the war nobody would even entertain that idea, I guess they would call him crazy given the devastation Germany left in the occupied countries.

K.Kocjancic · Post by **K.Kocjancic** » 01 May 2003 16:41

If partisans are to be judged they I think should be judged by their own people cause they knew that Germans would kill civilians if their own soldier dies, many civilians died like that and it is a tough situation we have here, to fight the German invador and take the civilian victims or not to fight?

Last year was here in Slovenia trial against ex-Partisan, who had killed any wounded German soldier during WWII.

Partisans attacked German unit and allmost totaly destroyed (just few escaped). When the Partisans were checking the bodies, one of the German cried out: Hilfe, hilfe,... Then Partisans "had done the right thing". He stated this in two books, artickles,... and the trial has dissapered into history. I don't know, what happend with the trial.

Very interesting thing is how the Partisans defeted them. They were in ambush and they saw Germans, They had a dog with them, who had been playing around. Sodendly a rabbit came out the wood and dog started to chase him. The Germans "formed" a tight group and were laughing, when Partisans opened fire.