"Finland's Boys": An Estonian Volunteer's story

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Karelia
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"Finland's Boys": An Estonian Volunteer's story

#1

Post by Karelia » 20 May 2014, 00:30

Rob - wssob2 wrote: ...

Yes the Baltic SS units tend to get identified as "white hat" Waffen-SS, - witness the 1951 Lodge-Philbin Act. Buried on the forum somewhere are some quotes from Finnish SS troops expressing concern about the genocidal activities their comrades were participating in.
So far not one Finnish SS-battalion volunteer has been accused for any crime.
Rob - wssob2 wrote:The topic of how the SS co-opted anti-Communist Eastern European nationalisms is a fascinating, complicated and controverial subject, one that sadly resonates to this day in modern conflicts like we're seeing in the Ukraine. A fantastic book that covers the tale of Latvian collaboration is Alfred Valdmanis And The Politics Of Survival - read it and you'll get a sense of how tragic it was. Another book that covers the nations sandwiched between the hammer of Stalin and the anvil of Hitler is Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin.

...
"Nationalism"? Would not call will for freedom as "nationalism".

Although I can well understand the choices many Eastern European Jews did when they supported the soviet invaders in 1939-41 I can also very well understand the feelings of the other citizens of those countries, when many Jews took part on Stalin's order of destruction of those countries and murdering of the escaping civilians. Just read memories of an Estonian veteran, who was shocked of the atrocities of those destruction battalions.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2

Post by Annelie » 20 May 2014, 01:17


Just read memories of an Estonian veteran, who was shocked of the atrocities of those destruction battalions.
Do you have the name of the book of memoirs for this Estonian Veteran please?

Thanks


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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#3

Post by BillHermann » 20 May 2014, 09:00

We are slowly heading into strawman territory and others.

No where has anyone as far as I can see has said Waffen-SS = bad Soviet Stalin divisions = good. Most I would suspect would agree that they were all nasty. This is not the point.

The original question was not regarding are the SS bad, evil or elite but why have they become so popular and why is there such fictional ethos. Why do so many go nuts for them even to go so far as to fictionalize much of their history.

Nationalism in many ways is not a good thing, in many cases it causes more problems than good. It often becomes a reason for ethnic cleansing and xenophobia. Protecting ones sovereignty can be a good thing but when hate and crime is connected with it it becomes a completely different animal.

Turning anyone or group into a monsters is a great way to get people to do unspeakable things. Both the Nazis and the Soviets were good at this. One did it with more race the other did it with more with class.

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Karelia
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#4

Post by Karelia » 20 May 2014, 18:56

Annelie wrote:

Just read memories of an Estonian veteran, who was shocked of the atrocities of those destruction battalions.
Do you have the name of the book of memoirs for this Estonian Veteran please?

Thanks
It was not a book but a story in a Finnish war veteran magazine. So not really "memories". He was an Estonian volunteer in the Finnish JR200 (200. IR), who had escaped from German occupied Estonia and compulsory drafting to the German army.

I'll try to find the article for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_In ... giment_200

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Karelia
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#5

Post by Karelia » 20 May 2014, 21:28

Karelia wrote:
It was not a book but a story in a Finnish war veteran magazine. So not really "memories". He was an Estonian volunteer in the Finnish JR200 (200. IR), who had escaped from German occupied Estonia and compulsory drafting to the German army.

I'll try to find the article for you.
Here it is, page 20 - in Finnish...:

http://www.sotaveteraaniliitto.fi/userf ... 2_2012.pdf

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Annelie
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#6

Post by Annelie » 20 May 2014, 21:37

Thankyou for posting.

I will try a translator and at least get the gist of it all.

Annelie

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Re: Jewish war crimes in Soviet occupied areas

#7

Post by David Thompson » 21 May 2014, 22:40

I realize that this thread has been split off and recaptioned, but the whole idea of "Jewish war crimes in Soviet occupied areas" seems a little quirky to me -- like "Greek Orthodox war crimes in Soviet occupied areas." What, if any significance does the perpetrator's religion have to the war crime?

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Karelia
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Re: Jewish war crimes in Soviet occupied areas

#8

Post by Karelia » 23 May 2014, 14:03

It seems a bit odd to me as well, since I have/had no wish to start a topic about "Jewish crimes". I only wrote about them to argue, that it was not only the "misguided nationalism" that caused the collaboration with the SS (and atrocities against e.g. the Jews).

Normal people do not act violently totally without any reason, although minor causes can be agitated to became major.

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BillHermann
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Re: Jewish war crimes in Soviet occupied areas

#9

Post by BillHermann » 23 May 2014, 14:41

Indeed quirky

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Karelia
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#10

Post by Karelia » 23 May 2014, 14:43

Annelie wrote:Thankyou for posting.

I will try a translator and at least get the gist of it all.

Annelie
If you need any assistance on some parts, please let me know. However I would not like to translate it all...
Last edited by Karelia on 23 May 2014, 18:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jewish war crimes in Soviet occupied areas

#11

Post by David Thompson » 23 May 2014, 15:16

I'll recaption it "Finnish Boys": An Estonian Volunteer's story - DT.

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Karelia
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Re: Jewish war crimes in Soviet occupied areas

#12

Post by Karelia » 23 May 2014, 18:08

David Thompson wrote:I'll recaption it "Finnish Boys": An Estonian Volunteer's story - DT.
Thanks a lot. Think this name fits better.

To be precise, those Estonian volunteers were referred as "the Finland's boys" ("Suomen-pojat" in Finnish, "Soomepoisid" in Estonian). At least today that nickname refers to all Estonian volunteers in the Finnish Army and Navy. About 1/10 of the Finnish Navy personnel were Estonians.

There were 3.273 Estonian volunteers in the Finnish Defence Forces during the Continuation War. Out of them c. 2.000 served in the (Estonian volunteer) 200. IR (only two battalions).
Last edited by Karelia on 23 May 2014, 18:30, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Finnish Boys": An Estonian Volunteer's story

#13

Post by John Hilly » 23 May 2014, 18:26

What if we talk of patriotism instead of nationalism. I think that describes Estonian and Finnish attitude better...

Greets, J-P
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Karelia
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Re: "Finnish Boys": An Estonian Volunteer's story

#14

Post by Karelia » 23 May 2014, 18:31

John Hilly wrote:What if we talk of patriotism instead of nationalism. I think that describes Estonian and Finnish attitude better...

Greets, J-P
Agree totally.

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Re: "Finland's Boys": An Estonian Volunteer's story

#15

Post by Skyderick » 27 May 2014, 16:50

So far not one Finnish SS-battalion volunteer has been accused for any crime.
That is certainly no indication that no war crimes were carried out.

From the recollections of Alexandra Shumina, who was born in 1923 (Interviewed by Ida Shenderovich and Alexander Litin):
... On October 2, 1941 at 7 in the morning the village elder Konkov, together with policemen and a murder squad consisting of Germans and Finns, began to take Jews to be shot....

From the testimony of Mikhail Rinberg, who was born in 1922:
...On one occasion the police announced to all the Jews that their men should assemble near the former church...it was German policemen and Belarusians who went around the houses and informed people that all the Jews should assemble the following morning near the former church...The Jews came. They all were lined up. No one knew anything. The day before the young men had been forced to dig a pit outside of the town of Lyubonichi. No one knew why they had to dig such a large, long and wide one. They were lined up...there were Finns armed with sub-machine guns...these Finns, with their sub-machine guns and with German shepherds, forced them to their knees and then to move forward - the distance to the small bridge was apparently 200 meters - so they had to move from the club to the small bridge on their knees. Then they were told to stand up and walk. They were taken to the site and then shot...

Testimony of Mikhail Koren, born 1894, manager of a bakery:
... One morning during the second half of August 1941, a punitive expedition of the SS, including Germans, Finns and a translator, came to the town of Pukhovichi. ... The punitive expedition split up and the hunt of Pukhovichi’s Jewish men began. Those caught were lined up—95 men in total, including one thirteen-year-old. During and following the manhunt, a column was formed, and the Jews were mocked and beaten. Many of their faces and arms were covered with blood. ... They brought the Jewish men to the Pukhovichi cemetery in three groups, where they were all shot. Two non-Jewish women were also shot. Their grave is located a stone’s throw away from the Jewish cemetery ....

Source: The International Institute for Holocaust Research at Yad Vashem [search word 'Finns']

A search in Hebrew also suggested that Finns partook in the execution of 200-150 Petrikov Jews in February 1942 near the village of Balki, and in that of Jews from Shklov who were transferred to Ryzhkovichi on the 2nd October 1941. The articles have apparently not been translated into English.

Source: The International Institute for Holocaust Research at Yad Vashem [search word 'פינים']

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