Holocaust in Romania

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viriato
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#16

Post by viriato » 07 May 2002, 13:08

According to Victor there were in 1930 728115 ethnic jews in Romania. My numbers are for the same year, 984213 jews for religious affiliation. It seems that some 156000 religious jews thought of themselves being not ethnic jews. Can someone on this forum confirm (or not)?. This is the table of religious affiliation in the 1930 census that I have:

Orthodox: 13027305
Greek-Catholics:1320000
Catholics:1196000
Reformed:717162
Lutherans:392200
Unitarians:72000
Jews:984213
Moslems:156000
Other:158800
Total Population:18025037

By the way I have the numbers of a previuos census (1921), these by ethnicity, as well some natality and mortality numbers for some years.

Romanians:12349000(75.0% of the total)
Hungarians:1400000(8.5%)
Jews:856000(5.2%)
Germans:725000(4.4%)
Ucrainians/Russians:527000(3.2%)
Bulgarians:214000(1.3%)
Turks/Tatars:165000(1.0%)
Polish:82000(0.5%)
Serbians/Slovaks:82000(0.5%)
Others:66000(0.4%)

Born:A
Deceased:B

1921:
A-375968
B-297816

1922:
A-620460
B-372157

1923:
A-613726
B-376236

1926:
A-607864
B-372948

1927:
A-603284
B-392850

1928:
A-623860
B-351726

What about this numbers? I have some doubts because:
1-The numbers for 1921 (born and deceased) are quite different from all the other years:
2-It seems that if the net grow of population (at least 200000 per year) would have pushed the 1930 numbers up. Or was that number "ate" by a net outmigartion?

Critics are welcomed. Furthermore I would like to complete my born/deceased tables for the twenties and also the thirties and have some numbers about international migration to and from Romania for the same period.

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Roberto
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#17

Post by Roberto » 07 May 2002, 14:01

Viriato,

You seem to have vast knowledge of and great interest in population statistics.

That being so, and while I have no data to comment on your figures regarding Romania, I think you might be interested in looking up the following site:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/20centry.htm


viriato
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#18

Post by viriato » 07 May 2002, 14:23

Medorjurgen wrote:
You seem to have vast knowledge of and great interest in population statistics.
Yes indeed (that is I am intersted, if I have a vast knowledge of population statistics I wuold rather answer no). Unfortunately I have access only to scant information on the subject. Most libraries where I can go have few books about demographics outside Portugal. But sometimes I can find something...
By the way I have similar information about Poland, Czechoslovakia,... I might open a new thread only about demographics, particulary about the first half of last century. What do you think?

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Roberto
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#19

Post by Roberto » 07 May 2002, 15:19

viriato wrote:Medorjurgen wrote:
You seem to have vast knowledge of and great interest in population statistics.
Yes indeed (that is I am intersted, if I have a vast knowledge of population statistics I wuold rather answer no). Unfortunately I have access only to scant information on the subject. Most libraries where I can go have few books about demographics outside Portugal. But sometimes I can find something...
By the way I have similar information about Poland, Czechoslovakia,... I might open a new thread only about demographics, particulary about the first half of last century. What do you think?
Good idea.

Here's a site containing current demographic data worldwide:

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/fa ... exgeo.html

michael mills
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#20

Post by michael mills » 09 May 2002, 03:10

According to Victor there were in 1930 728115 ethnic jews in Romania. My numbers are for the same year, 984213 jews for religious affiliation. It seems that some 156000 religious jews thought of themselves being not ethnic jews. Can someone on this forum confirm (or not)?.
The claimed number of 984,213 Jews by religion in Rumania in 1930 is without the slightest doubt a gross exaggeration, and is quite possibly a fraud perpetrated at the time by anti-Semitic elements within the Rumanian Government for the purpose of magnifying the "Jewish problem" within the country, and providing justification for not granting citizenship to so-called foreign Jews.

At the beginning of the 20th century, there were 250,000 Jews in the smaller Rumania of that time (the Regat), mostly 19th century immigrants from Russia. In the decade before the outbreak of the First World War, there was a very large emigration of Jews from Rumania, so that it is unlikely that the size of the Jewish population grew from 1900 to 1914, and may even have fallen.

After the First World War, Rumania annexed the territories of Bukovina from Austria, Transylvania from Hungary, and Bessarabia from Russia. There are no absolutely accurate figures for the Jews of those territories, but extrapolations from censi carried out at various times suggest maxima of 100,000 for Bukovina, 200,000 for Transylvania and 200,000 for Bessarabia.

Assuming that the Jewish population of the Regat had not fallen below 250,000, that would yield a total of 750,000 for the enlarge Rumania of the interwar period. Given that there continued to be substantial emigration from Rumania, which continued to be an extremely anti-Semitic country, possibly the most anti-Semitic in Europe, it seems to me extremely unlikely that the number of Jews could have increased to close to one million.

This is what Reitlinger says about the statistics for Rumania ("The Final Solution", 1953 edition, Appendix I, "Statistical Summary of the Final Solution", page 496):

"The discrepancies in current estimates are enormous. The Anglo-American Committee allowed 850,000 Jews for the 1939 population and 335,000 plus 40,000 to 45,000 in Russian-annexed Bessarabia, for the post-war population, a loss therefore of 470,000. M. Matatias Karp, however, estimates an all-round loss of 400,000, but there is evidence that even this figure is far too high.

If we take first the 1939 figure, it must be observed that there was no census that year, and that there had been none since 1930, and of this census there are three published estimates, all claiming to be accurate to a single digit, 725,318, 756,930, and 778,094. There is still a fourth and allegedly official figure. Under the law of January 21st, 1938, all Jews in Rumania were required to submit proof of citizenship. it was calculated that 617,396 registered, that 44,848 abstained, and that there were 30,000 who were not qualified to register. This makes a total of 692,000, a figure of which it may be said that it is just as likely to be accurate as the others".

In my opinion, the Jewish population of Rumania in 1939 was probably around 700,000.

The post-war estimate of 335,000 surviving Jews in Rumania applies only to the post-war territory of that country, excluding Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina which had been re-annexed by the Soviet Union, but including transylvania which had been returned to Rumania. The estimate excludes those surviving Jews of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina who had fled into the interior of the Soviet Union, and whose numbers were of the order of 120,000.

The total number of survivors of the 1939 population was therefore probably of the order of 455,000 or more, meaning than Reitlinger's estimate of 220,000 Rumanian Jewish victims of the Final Solution is likely to be more accurate than much higher estimates.

Ovidius
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#21

Post by Ovidius » 09 May 2002, 20:41

michael mills wrote:Rumania of the interwar period. Given that there continued to be substantial emigration from Rumania, which continued to be an extremely anti-Semitic country, possibly the most anti-Semitic in Europe
Assumption based on .... ????

~Ovidius

viriato
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#22

Post by viriato » 09 May 2002, 22:26

Michael Mills wrote:
The claimed number of 984,213 Jews by religion in Rumania in 1930 is without the slightest doubt a gross exaggeration, and is quite possibly a fraud perpetrated at the time by anti-Semitic elements within the Rumanian Government for the purpose of magnifying the "Jewish problem" within the country, and providing justification for not granting citizenship to so-called foreign Jews.
Yes, it might be one answer to the difference between my numbers and others advanced by yourself and other members of this forum. However I still have reasons not to disregard my source (984213 from the Enciclopedia Italiana, Milan 1936 edition, vol XXX):

1-Those numbers are compatible with the general increasement of the romanian population and its jewish component when compared to the numbers of the 1921 census that appeared in my thread (the source of this one is the Enciclopedia Universal Ilustrada Espasa-Calpe, Madrid 1926, vol 52);

2-The same difference between an ethnic and a religious jewish population also appears in the 1921 czechoslovak census. In that year the jews as an ethnic group were 180855 (1.3% of the total population) but they were 354342 (2.6% of total population) if you count them as a religious community. By the way this difference was negligible in Rutenia, sizeable in Slovakia and wide in both Bohemia and Moravia. One explanation might be that in the more developed Bohemia and Moravia many jews simply viewed themselves being czech or german of a differnt religion. One should note that the census was conducted on the first or more used language and this one would have been czech or german. In Rutenia however most jews might still had yidich as first or main language, therefore their sentiment of belonging to a differnt ethnic group would have been stronger. Could the same have happened in Romania as well?

3-Another source to the difference of our numbers could be an important net outmigration especially during the thirties. Unfortunally I don't have any clues to those numbers.

Ovidius
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#23

Post by Ovidius » 28 Jun 2002, 12:06

I see Mr. Mills has not yet brought any argument to support his statement:
michael mills wrote:Rumania of the interwar period. Given that there continued to be substantial emigration from Rumania, which continued to be an extremely anti-Semitic country, possibly the most anti-Semitic in Europe
I would like to know on which basis was Romania the most anti-Semitic country in Europe(this being more anti-Semite than the Third Reich itself) 8O

Until then, take a look here: http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/c/car ... oc-00.html

Dr. Felicia (Steigman) Carmelly also claims the figure of 211,000 Jews dead in Romanian territories conquered in the East, at the order of Marshal Antonescu's government.

[statement removed]

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/c/car ... etary.html

~Ovidius
Last edited by Ovidius on 26 Jul 2002, 13:45, edited 1 time in total.

michael mills
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#24

Post by michael mills » 30 Jun 2002, 13:28

I would like to know on which basis was Romania the most anti-Semitic country in Europe(this being more anti-Semite than the Third Reich itself)
Romania was more consistently anti-Semitic than Germany, from the time of its independence in the 19th century (some time in the 1870s I think; if I am mistaken, please correct me). Its government discriminated fairly harshly against Jews, although more against the recent immigrants from Russia than against the native Sephardi community which had been in the country since Ottoman times.

After the First World War, when Romania annexed extensive territories with large Jewish populations from Russia, Austria and Hungary, it discriminated against the Jews of the new territories, refusing to grant them Romanian citizenship, in contravention of the peace treaties giving it those territories.

Thus, Romania over a long period practised anti-Jewish measures that were only introduced in Germany after 1933. Official anti-Semitism may not have reached the same intensity in Romania that it eventually did in wartime Germany, but it existed more consistently and over a longer period. It is for that reason that I wrote that Romania was probably the most anti-Semitic country in Europe.

viriato
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#25

Post by viriato » 11 Jul 2002, 19:09

Michael Mills wrote:
Thus, Romania over a long period practised anti-Jewish measures that were only introduced in Germany after 1933. Official anti-Semitism may not have reached the same intensity in Romania that it eventually did in wartime Germany, but it existed more consistently and over a longer period. It is for that reason that I wrote that Romania was probably the most anti-Semitic country in Europe.
Have this anti-semitism been translated in a considerable emigration of jews from Romania? If yes how many emigrated and to which countries?

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Benoit Douville
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#26

Post by Benoit Douville » 20 Jul 2002, 23:18

Romania the most Anti-semitic country of Europe??? I have to agree with Ovi on this one that you are going a little bit too far. Do you have some source Michael Mills?

Regards

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avidan
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#27

Post by avidan » 23 Jul 2002, 01:07

Michael said "possibly the most"

This denotes opinion. Lets not get sidetracked.

Interesting to note that in the Wannsee protocol the amount given is:
Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000
although they also state:
The number of Jews given here for foreign countries
includes, however, only those Jews who still adhere to the Jewish
faith, since some countries still do not have a definition of the
term "Jew" according to racial principles.
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/TIMELINE/WANSEE.HTM

michael mills
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#28

Post by michael mills » 23 Jul 2002, 10:49

Benoit Douville wrote:
Romania the most Anti-semitic country of Europe??? I have to agree with Ovi on this one that you are going a little bit too far. Do you have some source Michael Mills?
Which country do YOU think was the most anti-Semitic in Europe before 1933? I am willing to be corrected on this point. In any case, it was not Germany; if it was not Romania, it was Poland, with Romania coming second.

The material on Romania I quoted was based on my memory of mareial in the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia 1943 and "The Jew in the Modern World", 1934, by Arthur Ruppin.

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avidan
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#29

Post by avidan » 23 Jul 2002, 14:30

I think that the Ukranian people were (and are?) the MOST anti-semitic.

As proof I offer the amount of atrocities committed by them with the Einzatsgruppen and the high number of them as camp auxiuliaries.

:x

Ovidius
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#30

Post by Ovidius » 23 Jul 2002, 14:43

michael mills wrote:Which country do YOU think was the most anti-Semitic in Europe before 1933? I am willing to be corrected on this point. In any case, it was not Germany; if it was not Romania, it was Poland, with Romania coming second.
Yeah right, Poland. Sure. :mrgreen:

Take a look:

Poland and the Kristallnacht:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... php?t=4407

~Ovidius

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