Holocaust in Romania

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michael mills
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#31

Post by michael mills » 24 Jul 2002, 04:23

Avidan wrote:
I think that the Ukranian people were (and are?) the MOST anti-semitic.

As proof I offer the amount of atrocities committed by them with the Einzatsgruppen and the high number of them as camp auxiuliaries.
I would agree that the Ukrainian people, as a group, tend to be very anti-Semitic, for historical reasons.

However, when I wrote about the most anti-Semitic COUNTRY in Europe, I was referring to STATES and their governments. So far as I can see, there has never been an independent Ukrainian state whose government pursued avowedly anti-Semitic policies. Most of Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire until 1917; although the Russian Imperial Government did adopt increasingly anti-Jewish policies after 1881, those policies were never as severe as those of the contemporary Romanian Government, eg it did not deny citizenship to Jews.

The short-lived independent Ukrainian state that existed for only a very time until it was snuffed out by the Red Army in 1919 was not openly anti-Semitic, although many atrocities against Jews were committed on its soil, primarily by the Kuban Cossacks of Denikin's Dobrovol'cheskaia Armiia.

The Communist government of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic was of course not anti-Semitic. Rather it was philosemitic, and punished anti-Semitism with the death penalty. The anti-Jewish feelings of the Ukrainian people were suppressed by Government decree, at the same time as they were being exacerbated by the experience of the 1932-33 famine. That is possibly the reason why Ukrainian anti-Semitism assumed such radically violent forms when it was released after the German invasion in 1941.

I still believe that Romania was the most anti-Semitic STATE in Europe between the 1880s and 1933. Its government throughout that time implemented policies aimed against Jews that were afr more severe than those of any other state.

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Andy H
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#32

Post by Andy H » 24 Jul 2002, 22:00

I have a listing by a Romanian called Cornel Craciunoiu (?) which gives a figure of between 11,000-36,000 Romanian gypsies were killed by the Romanian authorities, though since Romania had the largest Gypsy popn in Europe this amounted to the lowest proportionally in Europe

:D Andy from the Shire


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Benoit Douville
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#33

Post by Benoit Douville » 25 Jul 2002, 07:18

Poland??? Most of the Jews of Europe were living in Poland, about 3 millions before the war started so if it was so Anti-Semitic why all those Jews were living in Poland. Pretty weird stuff what you said. Germany was the most Anti-Semitic. Romania because we know what they think of Gypsies also but not as Anti-Semitic as the German. Anyway, before World War II and even during the war, There was a lot of Anti-semitism everywhere in Europe and USA.

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#34

Post by Ovidius » 25 Jul 2002, 10:05

Cheshire Yeomanry wrote:though since Romania had the largest Gypsy popn in Europe
This could be easily cured....... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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#35

Post by michael mills » 26 Jul 2002, 03:57

Benoit Douville wrote:
Germany was the most Anti-Semitic.
Can you give any evidence to back up your claim that Germany was the most anti-Semitic country in Europe prior to 1933?

Were there any mass pogroms carried out by German forces, similar to those perpetrated by the Polish Army and police in areas captured by them in 1919 and the early 1920s, eg in East Galicia?

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Benoit Douville
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#36

Post by Benoit Douville » 26 Jul 2002, 07:26

I didn't say before 1933 :? I said during the World War II era...

Regards

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Victor
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#37

Post by Victor » 27 Jul 2002, 10:47

Romanian Gipsy population in 1930:
Transylvania – 75,342 (2.3%)
Banat – 17,919 (1.9%)
Crisana-Maramures – 15,895 (1.3%)
Oltenia – 22,238 (1.5%)
Wallachia – 71,784 (1.8%)
Moldavia – 32,194 (1.3%)
Bukovina – 2,164 (0.3%)
Bessarabia – 13,518 (0.3%)
Dobruja – 11,446 (1.4%)
Total: 262,501 (1.5%)

Between 25 June – 15 August 1942, 11,441 nomad Gypsies were sent to Trans-Dnestra. These were followed by a second wave of 12,176 Gypsies (between 12 and 20 September 1942) which had several convictions and no occupation. In total 24,617 (9.38%). In Trans-Dnestra they were stteled mostly in the Golta and Oceakov departments. Only a few were given jobs in local farms. They lived in horrible misery. Only 400 g opf bread was given per day for an adult and 200 g for the children and the elderly. Potatoes were a rare sight. From time to time they received also a little fish. An estimated half of these Gypsies survived. In the autumn of 1943 they started to return on their own, occasionally with the help of Romanian railway workers or soldiers.
The remaining 90.62% of Romanian Gypsies did not lose Romanian citizenship, their goods were not confiscated etc.
Compared to Germany where 12% of the Gypsies survived or Croatia, where only 1% percent survived, most of the Romanian Gypsies were still there at the end of the war.

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Victor
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#38

Post by Victor » 27 Jul 2002, 10:49

michael mills wrote:After the First World War, when Romania annexed extensive territories with large Jewish populations from Russia, Austria and Hungary, it discriminated against the Jews of the new territories, refusing to grant them Romanian citizenship, in contravention of the peace treaties giving it those territories.
On 9 December 1919 the Romanian government signed the Minority Treaty with the US, British Empire, France, Italy and Japan. The Romanian state recognized the Romanian citizenship and all the rights it brought to ALL Austrian and Hungarian citizens born in the territories annexed by Romania in 1918. Also, the Romanian citizenship was recognized to ALL Jews who were living in Romania and did not have another citizenship.

The 1923 Constitution stated that the religious and ethnic differences do not constitute an obstancle for obtaining the civil and political rights. All Romanians were equal in front of the law.
Through the law of 25 February 1924, the Romanian citizenship was given to all citizens of the former Austro-Hungarian and Russian Empires and were living in Transylvania, Banat and Crisana on 1 December 1918, in Bukovina on 28 November 1918 and in Bessarabia on 27 March/9 April 1918.

Do you have any evidence that these laws were not applied? :D

In fact you are probably referring to the Jews who emigrated in the 1918-1924 period to Romania, "probably the most anti-Semitic state in the world". They must have been crazy to come into the wolf’s den! :roll:
Those who came after, were also granted the citizenship, but it was taken away from them in 1938 (225,222 people lost the citizenship "because they obtained it illegally").

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#39

Post by michael mills » 28 Jul 2002, 07:17

Victor wrote:
In fact you are probably referring to the Jews who emigrated in the 1918-1924 period to Romania, "probably the most anti-Semitic state in the world". They must have been crazy to come into the wolf’s den!
Those who came after, were also granted the citizenship, but it was taken away from them in 1938 (225,222 people lost the citizenship "because they obtained it illegally").
I strongly doubt that ANY Jews immigrated into Romania after 1918, in the sense of physically moving into Romanian territory from another country.

Rather, I think you will find that the Romanian Government found legal loopholes through which it could CLASSIFY large numbers of Jews living in former Austrian, Hungarian and Rumanian territories as "immigrants" and thereby deny them citizenship.

The 225,222 Jews who were deprived of Romanian citizenship in 1938 were obviously not persons who had entered Romanian territory after 1918. They were persons who had been living on territory that was annexed by Romania after 1918.

In 1938, Romania was not a satellite of Germany; it did not fall into that position until June 1940, after the defeat of France, its former ally. Anything done by the Romanian Government in 1938 was purely on its own initiative.

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Victor
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#40

Post by Victor » 28 Jul 2002, 13:54

michael mills wrote: I strongly doubt that ANY Jews immigrated into Romania after 1918, in the sense of physically moving into Romanian territory from another country.
You can believe what you want, but some evidence would probably help convince others.
I have found a declaration from 1924 of gen. Alexandru Averescu:
During the time when I was prime-minister, the Jewish population from Volhinia and Podolia, chased by the Bolsheviks, gathered near the Dniester and asked, through their brothers in Romania, the permission to enter Bessarabia. Guided by a humane feeling I agreed, with the condition that this was only a temporary solution, until things will settle down and they can leave. However, I noticed with regret that many Jews, through fraud, tried and are still trying to remain in the country

Another category of Jewish immigrants were the Russian political refugees who arrived after 1922.
michael mills wrote: The 225,222 Jews who were deprived of Romanian citizenship in 1938 were obviously not persons who had entered Romanian territory after 1918. They were persons who had been living on territory that was annexed by Romania after 1918.
And of course you can prove this, right?
michael mills wrote: In 1938, Romania was not a satellite of Germany; it did not fall into that position until June 1940, after the defeat of France, its former ally. Anything done by the Romanian Government in 1938 was purely on its own initiative.
So your point is that in 1938 Romania was more anti-Semitic than Germany? Do you have any idea which were the measures this government took?
Here they are:
- no Jewish teachers would be admitted in the future as Romanian literature or history professors.
- The Jews were forbidden to hire maids under 40 years :?
- about 100 doctors at the Social Insurance were replaced

The government which took these first anti-Jewish laws was also the first nationalistic government, lead by Octavian Goga. In fact Charles had already instituted the royal dictatorship.

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#41

Post by michael mills » 30 Jul 2002, 15:17

Victor wrote:
You can believe what you want, but some evidence would probably help convince others.
I have found a declaration from 1924 of gen. Alexandru Averescu:
During the time when I was prime-minister, the Jewish population from Volhinia and Podolia, chased by the Bolsheviks, gathered near the Dniester and asked, through their brothers in Romania, the permission to enter Bessarabia. Guided by a humane feeling I agreed, with the condition that this was only a temporary solution, until things will settle down and they can leave. However, I noticed with regret that many Jews, through fraud, tried and are still trying to remain in the country
This person, General Avarescu, may well have made the above statement. But does it represent historical reality?

The lie to the statement is given by the phrase "chased by the Bolsheviks". In fact, Jews were never chased by the Bolsheviks, who were philosemitic and suppressed anti-Semitism wherever they came upon it. Jews were indeed "chased", but by the Kuban Cossacks of Denikin's Dobrovol'cheskaia Armiia, and to a lesser extent by Petliura's Ukrainian army and by the Polish Army.

It is patently obvious that General Avarescu's statement was a total distortion, aimed at justifying the refusal of Romanian citizenship to the Jews of Bessarabia. That province had been part of the Russian Empire, but was seized illegally (ie not pusuant to a treaty) by Romania after the end of the First World War. Bessarabia contained a relatively large Jewish population (about 200,000), due to the fact that the Russian Imperial Government had promoted large-scale Jewish immigration into the province from the over-populated areas of Volhynia and Podolia during the 19th Century.

By claiming that the Jews of Bessarabia were refugees from Russian territory who had fled there during the Russian Civil War, Avarescu was saying that they were not native inhabitants of Bessarabia at the time that it was annexed by Romania, and therefore had no right to Romanian citizenship.

Avarescu was right in stating that the Jews of Bessarabia had originally come from Volhynia and Podolia; but that movement occurred in the 19th Century, when Bessarabia, Volhynia and Podolia were all provinces of the Russian Empire. The Jews were already settled in Bessarabia when the province was seized by Romania.

In fact' the statement by Avarescu quoted by Victor bears out my point entirely; the anti-Semitic government of Romania from 1920 onward sought any excuse it could find to deny Romanian citizenship to the Jews of the territories it had annexed, particularly those of Bessarabia.

Victor should beware of believing the claims of an anti-Semitic Romanian general.
Another category of Jewish immigrants were the Russian political refugees who arrived after 1922.
Russian political refugees may well have entered Romania, but they can hardly have been Jews. They must have been Whites, supporters of the anti-Bolshevik forces that were defeated in the Russian Civil War. No Jew in his right mind would have left the philosemitic Soviet Union for anti-Semitic Romania. There were some Jewish Social Revolutionaries and Mensheviks who opposed the Bolshevik regime and left Russia, but they went in their great majority to Germany and settled there.

The government which took these first anti-Jewish laws was also the first nationalistic government, lead by Octavian Goga. In fact Charles had already instituted the royal dictatorship.
The point I was making is that the Romanian government that took those measures, regardless of its political complexion, regardless of what King carol was up to, was independent and in no way subject to Germany. In other words, Romania had an anti-Semitic government that had adopted anti-Jewish measures of its own volition. In doing so, it was following an anti-Jewish tradition that had been established in Romania since it became independent in the 1870s.

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Victor
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#42

Post by Victor » 30 Jul 2002, 16:49

michael mills wrote: This person, General Avarescu, may well have made the above statement.
This person was prime-minister in the early 1920s.
michael mills wrote: The lie to the statement is given by the phrase "chased by the Bolsheviks". In fact, Jews were never chased by the Bolsheviks, who were philosemitic and suppressed anti-Semitism wherever they came upon it. Jews were indeed "chased", but by the Kuban Cossacks of Denikin's Dobrovol'cheskaia Armiia, and to a lesser extent by Petliura's Ukrainian army and by the Polish Army.
Just because you do not like what he is saying, does not mean he is lying. The Bolshevik leadership was indeed philo-Semitic, but that does not necessarily mean that the Red Army's soldiers were also. These were in their vast majority peasants. Do I need to remind you the Russian pogroms, during Tsarist era? The Russian peasants didn't really have many motives to love the Jewish population. Especially since most of them were had a better financial situation than the peasants. This alone could be an excuse to persecute them, since they can be labeled as "enemies of people".
Another reason for the "chased by the Bolsheviks might be the fact that during the inter-war period, anything bad that happened in Russia was blamed on the Bolsheviks.
michael mills wrote:It is patently obvious that General Avarescu's statement was a total distortion, aimed at justifying the refusal of Romanian citizenship to the Jews of Bessarabia. That province had been part of the Russian Empire, but was seized illegally (ie not pusuant to a treaty) by Romania after the end of the First World War. Bessarabia contained a relatively large Jewish population (about 200,000), due to the fact that the Russian Imperial Government had promoted large-scale Jewish immigration into the province from the over-populated areas of Volhynia and Podolia during the 19th Century.
Averescu was not in the 1938 government, which took the anti-Jewish measures. Why should he try to justify some measures he did not take?
Bessarabia was not annexed illegally, since there was no state (recognized internationally that is) with whom to sign a treaty. The Romanian army entered Besserabia in 1918 at the request of the Romanian leaders of the Democratic Moldavian Republic, who were being arrested by the Red Army.
michael mills wrote: In fact' the statement by Avarescu quoted by Victor bears out my point entirely; the anti-Semitic government of Romania from 1920 onward sought any excuse it could find to deny Romanian citizenship to the Jews of the territories it had annexed, particularly those of Bessarabia.
If so, than how come only in 1938, Goga requested that all the Jewish population prove that it resided in Romania territory in 1919 (like in the law of 1924)? Any government after 1924 could have done this, but it didn't. How does this deal with your Romania - the most anti-Semitic state in the inter-war period idea?
michael mills wrote: Victor should beware of believing the claims of an anti-Semitic Romanian general.
And the 44,848 out of the 225,222 Jews who lost the citizenship, which were not mentioned in the records, where also a fantasy of marshal Averescu? Clearly not all 200,000 came to Romania after 1918, but maybe some of them did. I don't think that Averescu and others who mentioned this were all cold-blooded anti-Semites and would just lie.
michael mills wrote: The point I was making is that the Romanian government that took those measures, regardless of its political complexion, regardless of what King carol was up to, was independent and in no way subject to Germany. In other words, Romania had an anti-Semitic government that had adopted anti-Jewish measures of its own volition. In doing so, it was following an anti-Jewish tradition that had been established in Romania since it became independent in the 1870s.
Yes, but you failed to prove that this government's measures were more drastic than Germany's and that the Romanian government was the most anti-Semitic in the inter-war period.

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#43

Post by michael mills » 30 Jul 2002, 17:51

Victor wrote:
Yes, but you failed to prove that this government's measures were more drastic than Germany's and that the Romanian government was the most anti-Semitic in the inter-war period.
That may well be, but that was not the point that I was making.

I claim that Romania was the most CONSISTENTLY anti-Semitic country in Europe. Its government had pursued anti-Semitic policies ever since it became independent in the 1970s, and continued to do so right up until it was occupied by the Red Army in 1944.

Of course, the severity of the Romanian Government's anti-Semitism was moderated by the influence wielded on it by the Great Powers, which for example forced it to sign the treaty on minority rights referred to earlier by Victor. But the Romanian Government tried to evade the measures imposed on it from outside; once Germany became the dominant power in the 30s, there was no longer any restraint from outside on Romania's anti-Semitism.

Germany only became anti-Semitic in 1933. Once it did so, it became more anti-Semitic than Romania, of course, but that is only because Germans are more efficient than Romanians. Whatever the German Government decided to do, whether anti-Jewish or pro-Jewish, it would do a thousand times better than the Romanian Government, because Germany is a culturally more advanced society.

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#44

Post by Victor » 30 Jul 2002, 21:08

Ovidius wrote: A side and pretty Off-Topic note for Victor:

The official thesis during the Communist years was that Romania had been an "occupied country" during WWII.

Actually this thesis doesn't hold water: occupied countries had a wide range of conditions, from the very harsh regime in Czechia(1938-1945) to the very "soft" regime in Holland(1940-1944). But all of them were defined by a loss of not only independence, but also of any possibility of self-governing and self-defense.

By judging the facts, the status of Romania from late 1940 to August 1944 had been that of an official Axis member, in the same position as the 1940-1943 Italy, or that of an ally as Finland, and slightly better than Hungary. There can be brought in plenty of arguments, but the best proof is that in an "occupied country", August 23 events could have not taken place.

Why the "occupation" thesis had been supported by the Soviet-dominated regime prior to early 1960s is easy to guess, but why was it later maintained?
:? And what does this has to do with me? Did I say that Romania was an occupied country? What exactly are you trying to say?
Ovidius wrote: A bon entendeur, salut.
Je ne suis pas un bon entendeur, parceque je n'avais rien compris!!! :?

Are you saying that I denied the fact that Romanians participated in the killings of Jews and Gypsies? Just scroll up and read! I am just trying to make mr. Mills prove that Romania was the most anti-Semitic state in the inter-war period, something you yourself tried to do.

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#45

Post by Victor » 30 Jul 2002, 21:09

[double post, sorry!]

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