'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

[seaburn]

As the Officer on the trail at Fontenay was never formally identified - you are quite entitled to form your own opinion. What evidence do you have that Dietrich ordered the executions at Wormhoudt ?

[phillip burke]

Hello Mr Keegan, had a bad day so your fishing again, please read Hitlers General by Ian Sayer and also The Berlin Bunker by James P.O Donnell for an understanding of Mohnkes murderous habits as well as his smack habit, interestingly there s some interesting parrellels betwwen him and his Fuhrer who also had murderous rages when no smack was about, both books can be had for pennies in online listings, bye

[j keenan]

Mr Turke,
I don't fish and only state facts

[seaburn]

Mr Turke,
I don't fish and only state facts

Speaking of facts . Still awaiting the evidence against Deitrich for Wormhoudt as stated by you.

[Dutto1]

Mr Turke,
I don't fish and only state facts

I would be interested also to see any eveidence that Dietrich ordered the Wormhoudt massacre.

Regards,

Ron

[JenniferGigi]

Below is an aerial photo (gratefully received from a forum member) taken on June 24th 1944 which shows our area of interest. It’s obvious when comparing this photo to the terrain today that there have been many significant changes to the layout. In the interviews with the surviving POW’s they were asked to consult a map of the Caen area and mark the locations of the two HQ’s and the field where the shooting happened. These grid references mean that I can be confident that these important locations are accurate.

Aerialroute44.jpg

(Siebken’s HQ is at the top right hand side of the photo is marked with a purple dot. The red arrows show the ‘track’ that the POWs took from Siebken’s HQ to the field of execution. The field where the POWs were executed is just out of shot to the bottom left of this photo. The main road from Fontenay-le-Pesnel to Caen runs along the bottom from west to east and is marked in green).


The witnesses were confused about the distance they had travelled and how long it took to get from the Btln HQ to the field. Therefore we cannot be sure exactly where they met the Officer. However there was a description of ‘scattered woods’ to their left as they made their way down the track. There was also a description from one of the witnesses who remembered a bend in the road near the location. I have circled the only area that seems to match this description, but this is only an educated guess and cannot be taken as conclusive.

To recap: The POWs were captured near Putot-e Bassin on the 8th of June, they were then brought to a Kp HQ and from there were marched across the fields to a bigger HQ. This location has been confirmed as the HQ of the II Btln of the 26th Regiment. The Btln Commander was Bernhard Siebken. The POWs stayed in a barn there for some time until ordered to move out again. There were three stretcher cases as well as some walking wounded in the party. The group total was approx. 35-40 men with approx. 10-15 SS guards. They were walked down a narrow track, the men carrying the stretchers found it hard to keep up and the guards were hurrying them along. Presently they came upon an Officer on the track who was then consulted by one of the guards. This is what the surviving witnesses had to say about this fateful meeting with this Officer. (You will note discrepancies between the accounts and as before, I have indicated answers that were given in the second interviews as opposed to the first.)

Mc Lean:

The Sergeant went up to an Officer who was giving orders on the road and asked where he should take the prisoners. ‘The German Officer drew back his hand and let a yell out of him and appeared to be going to hit the German Sergeant’.
Mc Lean could not understand what was said.

They were then marched ¼ of a mile away into the field where the executions happened.

The location of meeting the Officer was immediately behind the German Artillery lines, this Officer was possibly checking and inspecting these lines.

Seemed to be a man of authority.

He was in a car when the party arrived but stepped out of it then.

It was an open vehicle and had no top on it, it was similar to ‘a touring car’.

It was a camouflaged vehicle. Light and dark camouflaged paint.

The braid on his shoulder lapels signified him as an Officer.

The colour of the braid was cream.

It was not flat braid, it was rough/curled.

There was a ‘pip’ which was gold in colour on the shoulder strap too.

He was wearing a cap.

He was wearing a grey top coat, like an Officers rain coat.

He had a skull on his cap.

He was about 5ft 8. (176.7cm).

He was about 40 years old or older.

No moustache, No glasses or monocle, no scars.

He gave an order that they should be shot, this was ascertained by his actions not his words as Mc Lean did not understand German.

When the Sergeant had asked where to take the POWs the Officer had raised his hand as if he was going to strike the sergeant – he then pointed in the direction they were led after.

He was issuing orders around the guns.

He had not seen this Officer before this time.

He could not be sure that the Officer had ordered the killing, but the guard seemed more confidant after that and took them to the field.

(Cross examination just after the interview)

He was fairly well built.

The coat was long and came past his knees.

No belt or cross straps over his coat.

He had high boots.

Hard cap. He did not recognise any badge on the cap. There was something on the cap above the peak but he did not know what it was. There was no braid about the peak.

He had a driver with him. There was no other Officer with him, just the driver.

Q: Was is possible the Officer just told the guard to take you to the rear?
A: ‘Well I don’t know, he seemed very angry. He seemed pretty mad because the Sergeant did not know where to take us’
The vehicle that arrived with the firing party could have been the same car that the Officer was in but McLean couldn’t be sure.

(Re-Interview in July)

He wore a German Officers coat. It looked like a rain coat. A long coat, it was below his knees and on that coat was twisted rope braid – a pip or number of brass was on that.

He did not notice any other person in the vehicle besides the Officer and the driver.

The vehicle was already halted when they came upon it.

He wore a dress, peaked cap.

He could not say what material or colour the crown of the cap was made of.

There was a badge on the cap, but he could not recall what it was, when told that he’d said it had a skull on it in the first interview, he could not remember saying that.

He was right beside this Officer, less than 10 yards.

No other Officer with this Officer.

High polished boots.

The party were not stopped by anyone else after this, although there were German troops at the side of the road.

Mc Lean admitted he didn’t speak German so therefore could not know for sure what was being said, but he understood the actions and gesticulations.

Says that one of the POWs had asked where they were being taken and he was told that they would have to find out, after this Sergeant spoke to the ‘Angry Officer (‘AO’)’ he seems more relaxed that he knew now where to go. The ‘AO’ had pointed down the track that they subsequently followed.

Q: ‘isn’t it ridiculous to assume this Officer by his actions had ordered you be shot’ A: That is what it appeared to me, that we were going to be shot as the Officer had no use for us.’

Did not feel at any time until after meeting ‘AO’ that they were in danger of being shot.

He didn’t talk to anyone who understood German or who commented that they thought they were going to be shot. He himself though had said this to others.


Ferris:

Officer was in a black civilian type closed car.

He shouted out the window orders to the guards.

Two people in the car, the driver and the Officer. Officer sitting in the back of the car.

Men had been stopped when the car passed by about 10-15 minutes later.

He had thought before this time that they were going to be shot, after he saw the Officer in the car, he was certain.

He assumed he was an Officer because all the guards came to attention in his presence.

He was wearing a peaked cap.

He did not notice what was on the cap or any rank insignia.

He could not see the colour of the uniform as the Officer was in the car.

There was no motorcycles with the car.

There were no other cars with it.

Clarke:

He was in a half track and was very angry, he swore at the guards.

One of the party told the others that the Officer had told the guards that they ‘had to get rid of them’.

He was standing at the front of the half-track.

The POWs had been walking down the track and had come upon the half-track coming towards them.

He spoke to the guards for about two minutes in ‘high anger’.

He did not see the Officer make angry gestures to the guards.

Clarke was at the back of the column carrying a stretcher.

This Officer seemed to be north of the German position, but Clark could not be certain of this.

Clark could not be certain if there were artillery positions close by, but there were mortar positions just outside the Kp HQ. Which Clark presumed was a half mile away from where they were (it was actually approx. over 2 miles/3 Km away from this area).

He did not feel he got a good look at this Officer.

German guards and driver saluted the Officer.

Two German soldiers in the back of the car, officer was in the front but not driving.

Other vehicles were going and coming in the field beside the track at the time they were stopped.

These vehicles were half-tracks.

They travelled on about ¼ mile to the field.

Before they met the Officer, they had been told that they were being brought to a hospital. After they left the Officer, Lt Barker (who spoke some German) asked the guards if they were going to the hospital. The guards never answered but replied ‘Rouse’ (sic).

Some of the prisoners did not seem to feel that they were now in danger.

(Cross examination)

Officer was in a half track but it could have been a Volks wagon which was very well camouflaged with bushes.

In the car was a feldwebel, 2 soldiers in the back, the driver and the Officer.

The Officer was in blue uniform with straps on shoulders, no coat noticed.

He did not get out of vehicle.

He did not notice collar markings.

He had one big badge on his cap.

He could identify the cap badge if he saw it.

Officer stood up in the half track.

Black peak cap and shoulder boards with straps going across his shoulder.

The driver and two or three in the back.

He had a trench coat on.

No other vehicle with his or no flags on car noticed.

Lt Barker did all the talking for the group as he spoke German.

They were moved to the side of the track while they were stopped in order to let traffic by.

Second Interview, July 45:

They were stopped for about 4 minutes with this Officer.

He was about 25-30 yards/Metres back from this Officer.

He had rope/braid on his shoulder.

He had a dark trench coat on.

There were German troops in a scattered wood to the left of the trail.

He was asked if he could have mistaken an open car (per McLean’s description) for a half track. He replied ‘It is possible that it might have been wagon with wheels, well camouflaged with bushes etc., and 25 to 30 yards away, it is possible that it could have been either’.

The case against Mohnke:


Mohnke3.jpg


(1) The location where these executions happened was in the 26th Regiments ‘zone of operation’. After their capture the POWs were brought to a Comp. and Btln H.Q.’s of Mohnke’s Regiment. There is also evidence that Mohnke was in this particular area on the night in question. George Isecke of the 12th Panzer Regiment during his interrogation stated the following in relation to the 26th Regiment:

‘I know nothing of an advance of the Regimental Headquarters; but I did see the Regimental Commander himself, and I presume he did come from outside Cheux because he passed our HQ on his way to his forward units’
(A:82, Interrogation of Isecke, July 45, Ontario, Canada)

The actual day that Isecke saw Mohnke is not stated, but he had been questioned just previously about events on June 8th. There is a map included in the file WO309/1172 which was shown to the surviving witnesses to verify different locations. In the portion of that map shown here, it is clear that the ‘trail’ the POWs were brought along was actually marked as a road at that time. You will note that this road leads directly from Rauray where Isecke saw Mohnke right up to Siebken’s HQ in Le Mesnil Patry and of course it is the road on which the POWs met the ‘angry Officer’. Today this ‘road’ has disappeared into fields.


maplocations.JPG
(Blue dot = HQ of Reg 26th, Green Dot=HQ of Pz Reg, Purple dot= Siebken’s II Btn HQ, Red dot= field where executions happened, Black mark = approx. site of the meeting with the ‘Angry Officer’, Yellow arrows=route taken by POWs).


(2) In 1948 Dietrich Schnabel (II Btln, 26th Regiment) recalled seeing 40-50 Canadian prisoners at his Btln HQ in Le Mesnil Patry, these men were subsequently sent off to the Regimental HQ in the rear. He then recalled that Mohnke arrived later that night at the HQ to berate his Officers for sending these men back. He reported that Mohnke had said ‘Where will I put all those prisoners of war you sent back’. Schnabel further reported that this was between the night and early morning of the 8th/9th of June and that Mohnke was ‘raging’. (‘Hitler’s Last General’ pages 187/188).

This clearly shows that Mohnke knew about the prisoners being sent back before he arrived at the Btln HQ. How had he known this? As these POWs never reached anywhere near the Regimental HQ, the inference taken has to be that Mohnke was indeed the Officer who intercepted them and had angrily ordered their execution.


(3) Is there evidence here in the testimony of McLean, Ferris and Clark to rule Mohnke definitively in or out as a suspect? Personally the most interesting part of McLean’s testimony concerns his description of the ‘Shoulder Boards’ of the mystery Officer. If we can take the details of a cream/twisted/rough/curled braid with a gold 'pip' as accurate, that would indicate that this Officer was an ‘Obersturmbannführer’, which was Mohnke’s rank at that time.

rank2.png


Other suspects:

Does anyone feel that this ‘Mysterious Officer’ could have been someone else? In the vicinity at the time were the Panzer Lehr Division, elements of this division were known to be here on this date per the testimony of Georg Isecke. Certainly our three witnesses were all recaptured by ‘Tank men’. Isecke, when asked about this, thought it unlikely that these Panzer men were from his Regiment as they had orders not to pick up POWs but to leave it to the infantry. Also known to have been there or thereabouts to the right of Le Mesnil Patry was Siegfried Müller’s Pioneer Btln who themselves were suspected of other war crimes at this time. Isecke maintained that this Btln were not brought up to the front line until just after this date, but can they be ruled out?

On the left were the notorious Recon Btln under Bremer, this Btln were subsequently accused of executing POWs, two men from this Btln were in the area at this time, one being suspected of having taken part in the actual shooting. Both men claim to have seen the ‘Angry Officer’ but also claim not to have recognised him. Their testimony however was full of contradictions leaving the investigators wondering what the truth of the matter actually was. They did also mention that they met Erich Olboeter (III Btln , 26th Reg) in the early morning of the 9th of June and asked him for directions back to their Btln. There is no evidence or allegation against Olboeter, it is just an indication that there could have been other ‘people of interest’ roaming this area on the date in question.

HQ8644.jpg

If anyone feels that there is pertinent evidence that could identify this ‘Angry Officer’ from the testimonies of the three men in relation to the clothes or vehicles details, please post. All insights welcome. I will finish this post at a later date with details of what happened after the men arrived in the field.

i know this is an old post but I want to add that they mention the guy had no scars etc and I think if he was looking that much of the features and it was Mohnke someone would have mentioned his prominent moles or birth marks on the left side of his face. Also Mohnke was very tall as I read possibly 6'4 with boots etc I do not think he would have been cited as being 5'8 that I have seen on the threads.

[phillip burke]

Hello JenniferGigi, you really need to read carefully the whole of this thread, also take into consideration the fact that Seaburn was getting most material from public archives rather than books. At the beginning of the thread there was more than one suspect but by the end i think we had probably the right person in the spotlight.Regards Mr J Keegan, he has never brought much to the table other than his opinion, remember the site is called Axis History Forum not Axis Opinion Forum, while its ok to say your piece ,what we really like is opinion backed up by evidence,in fact at the beginning of this thread i had Hubert Meyer in the spotlight but due to weight of evidence i changed my opinion. Like the evidence of his addiction, his walking with crutches and his explosive temper, all were pretty much proven.

[JenniferGigi]

Hello JenniferGigi, you really need to read carefully the whole of this thread, also take into consideration the fact that Seaburn was getting most material from public archives rather than books. At the beginning of the thread there was more than one suspect but by the end i think we had probably the right person in the spotlight.Regards Mr J Keegan, he has never brought much to the table other than his opinion, remember the site is called Axis History Forum not Axis Opinion Forum, while its ok to say your piece ,what we really like is opinion backed up by evidence,in fact at the beginning of this thread i had Hubert Meyer in the spotlight but due to weight of evidence i changed my opinion. Like the evidence of his addiction, his walking with crutches and his explosive temper, all were pretty much proven.

I am not attacking or saying anything against what this thread was talking I pulled out that part to stat a FACT that Mohnke has moles/birthmarks on the side of his face and that is something I think has perfect relevance to the fact they mentioned he had no scars. Your reply to me is very condescending and there is no reason to bring up another poster on here. The fact I bring up something that hasnt been stated in a book does not cancel it out that is how new ideas and theories come about in the world. I have been in this page 3 days and I am blown away by the petty school boy fighting among all of you I really thought I had found a place to be able to discuss and learn more about WWII an help form my own opinion "which this board seem to really have an issue with people having their own opinions and ideas about anything they don't agree with" on Mohnke. This group is extremely hostile and all of your bitching back and forth and hated on each other really takes away from the intelligent and well research you all do.

[phillip burke]

apoloies if you feel that way, i was just trying to point out the excellence of the research and how some are going to primary sources and others not, was not meant to be personal attack more a cautionary note.

[seaburn]

i know this is an old post but I want to add that they mention the guy had no scars etc and I think if he was looking that much of the features and it was Mohnke someone would have mentioned his prominent moles or birth marks on the left side of his face. Also Mohnke was very tall as I read possibly 6'4 with boots etc I do not think he would have been cited as being 5'8 that I have seen on the threads.

I believe height can be subjective, some of the examples from the list you re-posted say that the Officer was in a vehicle, meaning that a true appreciation of his height would be hard to estimate with accuracy. How near the POWs were to this Officer were will be another factor, from memory, some were at the back of the group, some at the front, As you've stated, this thread is an old one and I've personally moved on to other projects, I don't have the time or inclination to re-immerse myself in it, but if I'm called out to defend myself on anything I've posted, I will. Otherwise new evidence you find or post should be of interest to others.

My new project necessitates digging in the archives for all leads on relevant material for my current 'person of interest' and I would say that if you are determined to proceed with your bio of Mohnke, you will need to access all files relevant to him to read yourself in order to get a true appreciation of the accusations and testimonies given. You are only getting parts of these testimonies on this thread, but most files run to hundreds of pages. I also recommend that you read the files on the le-Mesnil-Patry and Mouen cases also, reference numbers for these files appear with the accusations.

[Michael Kenny]

Below is an aerial photo taken on June 24th 1944.......................

Note: If you click on the little upward-facing arrow after 'Seaburn wrote' in the above you get the full version of the post I am replying to.


A better view from Le Mesnil Patry. June 7 1944.