'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#61

Post by seaburn » 10 Nov 2014, 19:42

Hi 'PB' thanks for posting. I have an interesting document which describes an Officer called 'Muhnke' - but has all the descriptions we know to fit Mohnke. The reason the name is spelt incorrectly is that it is an 'overheard, tapping' document and that's how the transcribers spelt it phonetically. The guy talking about this 'Muhnke' whose name was 'Willi' said he had a raging temper and he walked with the use of a stick because he had received leg injuries in battle. I can't prove that this is our Mohnke - but the point is, even though we suspect he did walk with a stick at times, its a bit of a moot point in this case as 'our Officer' only stepped out of his vehicle and then was stationary as the guard walked up to him to talk- hence no real chance to gauge how he walked sadly. If he had paced up and down, it may have proved the definitive evidence.

The details of Mohnke being on medication has made it into publishing before. I think he even admitted that he couldn't recount some details about Normandy because of this :roll: but I have read other accounts that he was prone to temper even before his injury. I'm sure you got the sense of his volatile temperament from the German POW witness statement posted above. The problem for the Canadian POW's was that Mohnke's style and attitude when dealing with them, surely set the tone for the men under his command. It has not been proved in this case but in the others his name was tied to. Its pretty infuriating that someone who is so tainted has actually never been proven to be the culprit in some of the worst atrocities against Allied POWs, it would have been interesting to see how a court case would have played out.
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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#62

Post by seaburn » 10 Nov 2014, 21:37

I think we need to clarify the Command Structure at the time this incident happened on June 8th. At that time, Mohnke was Commander of the 26th Regiment, Kurt Meyer was the Commander of the 25th Regiment and Max Wunsche was the Commander of the Panzer Regiment. It was not until June 14th on the death of Fritz Witt that KM became acting head of the Division with KH Milius slotting into Meyer's place. KM would only than have had command over these 3 Regimental Officers. So I cannot see how he would have had anything to do with ordering Siebken into action before that time.

Before that date each of the above Regimental Commanders would have been of equal status with none senior to the other even if their rank was higher - Kurt Meyer would only have had jurisdiction over his own Regiment and as the fighting was quite intense in his zone of operation at that time, I still contend he was unlikely to have been patrolling in Mohnke's sector - this is not an absolute of course and despite posting this in another thread, no one has backed me up on it. But in any event evidence needs to be produced to show that he was 'out and about' in other sectors before he became division head, IMO.

'PB' are you aware of the testimony of Siebken that he telephoned Hubert Meyer to query the order from Mohnke, to shoot wounded Canadian 3 POWs on June 9th ? H Meyer told him that this order was not valid. If this evidence is reliable it would be unlikely that H Meyer would have been the culprit as Siebken should have by that stage heard about the fate of the 35 Canadians (even if he denied knowing about it to investigators as there were too many of his men that had been escorting the prisoners not for it to have got back to him IMO).


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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#63

Post by klambie » 12 Nov 2014, 02:03

Late to this thread, but a few comments. Kudos to seaburn for digging into the original evidence and those who have contributed. I have not researched this incident in detail, but have looked at others and have collected some relevant documents.

1. eindhoven has mentioned this, but to emphasize the reason for the failure to prosecute the 'Canadian Malmedy'. LCol Bruce MacDonald, commander of 1 Cdn War Crimes Investigation Unit had the agreement of Canadian authorities that they were not interested in prosecuting lower ranking 'trigger men'. They wanted the commanders. Their best case was against Meyer at the Abbaye and they tried this one first with MacDonald prosecuting. The failure to get a death sentence left them rather deflated. As alluded to in this thread, potential doubts that Mohnke could be proved to be the instigator of this incident were likely a large factor in their failure to proceed (along with his unavailability). They also failed to proceed in other fairly solid cases. Correspondence from MacDonald to the Canadian authorities seems to point to his conclusion that this might all be a waste of time based on the precedent set by the Meyer case. In spring 1946, after the Meyer trial, MacDonald recommends that even though there are some reasonably strong cases still outstanding, 1 CWCIU should be wound up and all files passed to the British.

2. This probably belongs on the Siebken thread, but there was another incident involving his HQ. There is reasonable evidence that five Regina Rifles were executed immediately across the road (ie. to the west) from the Muolin HQ on the morning of 9 June. While many believe the specific details of his conviction led to an unjust verdict (one account has Mohnke waving his pistol about to ensure the executions are carried out), there is a larger picture to Siebken's involvement.

3. Location of Siebken's HQ (Post 41 etc.)
II/26 HQ probably moved several times on 8 June (one account says one or more of these on 7 June, but all others seem to say four different locations on the 8th)

a. Mansion between Fontenay and Cristot
b. Farm on W. outskirts of le Mesnil
c. Church of le Mesnil and farmhouse opposite
d. Fme de Moulin

4. Meyer as suspect
I tend to disbelieve this, though it's not impossible. Comments here regarding his coordination of counter-attacks I think overstate his effectiveness in this regard. If anything, they call into question Witt's handling of the Division. While narrowly focused on the Reginas, note these attacks:
a. Dawn 8 June against la Villeneuve and Norrey by three Koys of I/26 (infantry only)
b. Night 8/9 June against Bretteville by one Koy of 25 Regt and two Koys of Pz Regt 12 (largely armour only)
c. Morning 9 June against Cardonville by one Koy of I/26 (infantry only)
d. Afternoon 9 June by 3 Koys of Pz Regt 12 (armour only)
e. Dawn 10 June against Norrey by Pz Pioneer Pl (infantry only)

If Meyer was running around 26 Regt's area trying to coordinate attacks, he did a very poor job. These sub-units were largely in position doing nothing while others around them were making attacks.

6. Multiple batches of prisoners to 26 Regt HQ (Post 35)
I have testimony of one of the clerks of II/26 who says the procedure was for prisoners to be brought in from Koys to Bn HQ. From Bn HQ they were to be sent to Regt HQ. He says two large groups (200 in each group) were sent on 8 June and that Mohnke complained after the first.

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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#64

Post by seaburn » 12 Nov 2014, 09:53

Hi 'Klambie' thank you for your posting and welcome to the Forum and especially the thread ! What you say is all true. I haven't got to the part of 'why it was never prosecuted' which is the second 'mystery' in this case. I was hoping we could unmask the 'Angry Officer' first. But I do have some relevant docs that I'll post when we get to the concluding part of this.

As you stated, HQs moved frequently and so that accounts for different locations on different days or even on the same day. In this case as mentioned, the Kp and Btln HQs that the POWs were brought to have been identified. We have also identified the Reg. HQ that they were en route to - a little puzzler for me, although probably easily explainable by the confusion of battle is why the guards felt it necessary to approach the Officer on the road if they had been instructed to return the POWs to the rear. From the accounts given it would seem that the guards were 'unsure' of their destination - not because the 'Officer' spotted them and called them over - If POWs were going back all that day, the route should have been known. It just leaves me wondering what instructions were given when they left Siebken's HQ, were the instructions not clear or no maps provided?

You have mentioned that you don't think it was KM. Do you believe it was Mohnke or do you think the evidence against him is still too flimsy?

C

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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#65

Post by klambie » 13 Nov 2014, 00:50

I certainly think Mohnke is the most likely suspect, based on his documented protests about prisoners and movement around the 26 Regt area. The shoulder board evidence is also interesting. That said, I understand the idea regarding Meyer, he would be next on any investigator's list based on reputation. In fact, Canadian investigators mooted a similar idea about the 9 June murder near Bretteville. While everything pointed to an officer of Pz Regt 12, one of them later put out the idea of determining whether they could place Meyer in the area, apparently based on nothing other than reputation.

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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#66

Post by seaburn » 13 Nov 2014, 01:37

Hi 'Klambie'. From the documents I have read on the investigation into the killing of Canadians in Normandy, K Meyer was just one name that featured on the suspect list. Here is a page from the main prosecution file produced around April 45. At this stage, the full extent of the numbers killed was not fully known, the bodies in the Abbey and this case were only still being uncovered.

TS_26_856_0014-crop.JPG
TS25/856-14

Kurt Meyer is erroneously mentioned here as having taken over as Div. Head on the 10th of June, this date was given by him in his interrogation, although he said he wasn't 100% sure that it was correct. I have seen Wünsche , Isecke and Jakob Hanreich all give different dates for Witt's death - none of which were correct. It was of course on the 14th of June.

You will also note that two of the 'suspects' listed had HQ's nearer the area the POWs were executed than KM was at that time. Interestingly in another page from the same file, Bremer's unit were placed in Putot-en-Bassin on the 8th of June, which of course is the date and location where the POW's were captured.( See Siebken thread.. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&start=15) (post 18)

I agree Kurt Meyer had a 'reputation' that must put him under suspicion, but other than that suspicion there is no hard evidence to pin this case on him . These men listed above were suspected of personally carrying out the execution of captured POW's, meaning that all those named shared this same dubious 'reputation'.

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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#67

Post by phillip burke » 13 Nov 2014, 19:01

Hello all, no work today for me so been mulling this over. The trouble we have is that we are dealing with a closed male society and they are notorius for not breaking rank, think of some of the more recent scandals with banks . Nuff said. So got to thinking. Last night was watching crime show on The Lip TV and it was going on about M.O. So this morning my brain says hey why not look at these M,O s. We ve got Kurt Meyers dont want to know but buisness like murders at the abbaye, the similar but more brutal ones commited by Bremer and finally the brutal but seemingly random murders commited by Mohnke. Random in that they happened all over his area. also not forgetting the heat of the moment murders committed by the young grenadiers. Also going back to the closed society, again this morning, its been a long morning,i remembered there s something about the murders in Trois Jours En Enfer by Georges Bernage. Can you imagine my surprise when i see some statements made by Hubert Meyer concerning the murders. Breaking ranks. Its a transcript of a conversation between Georges Bernage and Madame Monique Corbiet.Using my really poor french and online translator i will try to give you some of whats said. Like you i have been able to collect hundreds of witness statements , both military and civil,about the battle of Normandy. Also i have benefited from the prescence of Hubert Meyer, who come here, to the spot, to correct the texts to his book and to discuss the Battle of Normandy, his testimony being exceptionel because of his function as 1A in 1944. We naturally talked with complete freedom about the massacres at Audrie and Mesnil-Patry, and i ask, who is responsible. Without hesitation or thought he named Wilhelm Mohnke .It was true , he said, that he was one of the first 144 members of the Leibstandarte in 1933 but he quickly became ''' the black sheep''. Already in 1940 he was implicated in war crimes.Then in 1941 , in the countryside of the Balkans, during operation Marita, he is seriously wounded and withdrawn from the front. Its a greivious blow watching his comrades, the elite of the reich, leaving him behind in the reichs propaganda.He copes badly and seeks solace in morphine, aware of its nature he becomes an addict.But in 1943, with the creation of the Hitlerjugend Division,the Waffen SS has a shortage of officers and Wilhelm Mohnke must again rejoin the service, so he is entrusted with the command of SS Panzergrendier Rgt 26. As we have seen ,Bernhard Siebken was hanged, while witnesses , former members of the division, say that Wilhelm Mohnke was resposible for the execution of two prisoners near the PC I/26 and those of june 11. The information given by Hebert Meyer was more explicit , Wilhelm Mohnke was no longer a part '' of the community of comrades''. He had already been involved in a war crime committed in 1940 and he would have been the motivator behind the crimes which Bernhard Siebken was hanged.While Bernhard Siebkin is put across as a perfect officer. In addition Fritz Witt, the commander of the division,with the testomeny of Siegfried Rothemund, was intending to take sanctions against Mohnke until killed at his headquarters at Verson on june 14. Thus Wilhelm Mohnke is guilty of war crimes,recognized -but never condenmmed by his own peers or the Allies. However Wilhelm Mohnke is surely not resposible for all of the executions in all these places. The willingness of Hubert Meyer tended not to cover anyone else.As regards the execution of three prisoners near the PC of Bernhard Siebken on 9th june and three other on june 11th, the affair seems clear, it was Mohnke. As regards the execution at Mensil-Patry it seems more than likely. Prisoners are taken southward towards captivity. an officer in a vehicule then turns up, who stops the column. According to Hubert Meyer , it would be Wilhelm Mohnke,whos PC was close to the place of execution, who intercepts the column. if Hubert M eyer says its Mohnke i think we have to believe him. So after 5 hours at this i ve had enough, im pretty sure someone else could do better translation and im sure i messed up the context, thats all folks

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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#68

Post by rossmcpharter » 13 Nov 2014, 19:18

Great post, I have this book, shame it's not more widely available, it's crying out for an English translation.

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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#69

Post by seaburn » 13 Nov 2014, 20:02

Thanks 'PB for putting the work in to this, put your feet up and take the rest of the night off ! We get the gist and it does prove very enlightening - All that was said by H Meyer about Mohnke has been said here and in other places before but its interesting to see a member of his division admitting it. It was mentioned on the Siebken thread that Witt was furious when news reached him about the murders of POW's by his men, although in fairness they did taper off even when Kurt Meyer took over after his death.

I understand why H Meyer could never have gone public with this - but its obvious that it was an open secret in the ranks of the LSAH. Too bad that we haven't been able to push it much further here with new evidence to definitively put the handcuffs on him although I still think the shoulder boards detail from Mc Lean have added substantially to the evidence against him.

I will post the final chapter of this sorry tale presently - what happened after they met the 'A Officer' and the investigation that followed.

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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#70

Post by phillip burke » 14 Nov 2014, 16:04

Helllo all some last thoughts on Mohnke, morphine,murder and mayhem, yes Hubert Meyers statement, confession reminds me of a similar one made by Kurt Meyer.From the book D-Day Then and Now, by After the Battle, '' before he died in 1961,Meyer returned to his former HQ,where Jean Marie accompanied him to the garden. There Meyer concurred with what had happened,but said it was difficult to admit such things to an enemy court''. This conversation took place in the gardens of the Abbaye d Ardennes. Back to Mohnke, i cant imagine anything more difficult than maintaining a morphine habit in a battlezone, from what i understand its a pretty much full time job. not many dealers with mobile phones in normandy 44. One must remember that while he was under the influence he was prob half asleep or very calm, its only when he s going into cold turkey that his temper and irrationaliety would burst out. Reading the passage at the end of conduct unbecoming it says that the case against Mohnke was stronger than the case against Meyer.But you have to remember that by 1955 the cold war was in full swing and we needed german soldiers, so Peiper is released and Kurt Meyer. Mohnke returns home . but by the time the spotlight returns to Mohnke in the 70s in relation to the massacre at Wormhoudt, the statue of limitations is up, and, as far as the west german judicarys concerned, Mohnke has already served a ten year sentence so is pretty much off the hook.

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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#71

Post by phillip burke » 14 Nov 2014, 17:42

hell, back again, just done inernet trawl and i ve come across this,Mohnke was granted immunity from prosecution by US intelligence services,according to sources who have seen the CIAs file on him says Stephen Ward.According to sources quoted by an ABC television programme broadcast in the united states, Mohnke was debriefed by CIA on his release.His CIA file shows that he provided information on fellow nazis and ss veterans, in return for money and guarantee of immunity from prosecution by the germans or britisch.War crimes trials had ended ,and with the advent of the cold war, the soviets are seen as the main threat.A former US military intelligance officer said that by 1955 the americans were anxious to interview any former Nazis leaving Russia,to find which of their colleagues might have become Soviet agents, and to find out how much the Russians had learnt about senior ex-Nazis in the west. Mohnke did not reply to ABCs requests for an interview. In january 1994 the German goverment ruled that there was insufficent evidence for a prosecution of Mohnke over the killing of 90 British prisoners in a barn at Wormhoudt, near Dunkirk,in 1940,or for the massacres in 1944 of 130 Canadian prisoners in Normandy and 72 American prisoners in the German Ardennes offensive. i ve gone to the CIA site to see if they ve anything on Mohnke but search was down, ah , the site i got this stuff from is called Gotter-Dammerung. Hitlers letzte Tage im Fuhrerbunker.

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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#72

Post by eindhoven » 15 Nov 2014, 05:45

Hello folks. I hope to be able to provide some more details. I am still convinced, chasing big fish after all, that KM is your man and not Mohnke.

Seaburn you have mentioned to paraphrase you are having a hard time accepting Meyer's involvement or of his leading various battles from June 7-9th.

With respect to the battle of Authie-Buron ("The Defeat of the 12th SS 7–10 June 1944", in Canadian Military History Quarterly, Volume 3, Issue 1)
"Although the attacks destroyed many Canadian tanks and overran a company of the North Nova Scotia Highlanders in Authie, they failed to break through the Canadians around Buron. Meyer, however, countermanded the divisional commander's order on his own initiative, feeling that objective unrealistic, and hoped to merely stop the flow of Canadian units inland until the situation could be stabilized.[13]

A couple of points:
1.You have a junior commander, Kurt Meyer, disobeying his Divisional Commanders order based on his own combat assessment
2. A Key Point, who else was fighting in the Cristot-Buron-Authie area? Gerd Bremer. I ask you to reconsider your solid defense that German command lines did not cross or that Meyer had some small sector.
3.Meyer was a Standartenführer and had command authority over Bremer, Mohnke, Siebken or whoever else he crossed paths with and could push into his plan.
4. I say HIS plan because he deliberately disobeyed his Division Commander orders meaning he is operating on his own initiative. My copy of Grenadiers is on loan...however Kurt Meyer himself narrates his position during these battles well and what he was doing to coordinate them.

Please also consider the following (Haller, The defeat of the 12th SS from 7–10 June 1944 Canadian Military History, Spring 1996):

Late on 7 June, the 26th SS Panzergrenadier Regiment under command of SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Wilhelm Mohnke arrived on the battlefield. Meyer's attack had pushed back one part of the Canadian advance but to the west of Meyer, the 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade had occupied a group of small villages three kilometres into the German line. The 26th Panzergrenadier Regiment crossed behind Meyer's regiment and took up positions to their west. KM planned and positioned the regiment for a powerful thrust with the 1st Battalion launching an attack towards Norrey-en-Bessin, defended by the Regina Rifles of the 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade, 3rd Canadian Division. Their orders were to overrun the Canadians and force a deep wedge between them and the British division to the west. No reconnaissance of the Canadian positions was done and the infantry met a maelstrom of defensive fire from firmly established positions.

Again Meyer in command -- (World War II: 12th SS Hitlerjugend Panzer Division Fought in Normandy
Originally published by World War II magazine, Latimer, Jon )

A company of Panther tanks (Wünsche, Ribbentrop, Pfeiffer) arrived late on 8 June, and Meyer personally led a night attack toward the village of Rots, which they reached at midnight. After several hours of fighting, however, the 12th SS were forced to withdraw, leaving behind six tanks. The Canadians noted that, despite advancing with courage and determination, the young Germans seemed to lack tactical control and had a habit of attacking piecemeal and failed to exploit favorable opportunities.

This was classic Kurt Meyer.

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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#73

Post by eindhoven » 15 Nov 2014, 06:09

Also I do not understand the continued discussion about Mohnke's addiction to Morphine, his leg wound, his disposition or temperament. So what? A bad attitude doesn't make someone a murderer. Does anyone here actually realize how many drunks there were in LSSAH? What is a morphine addiction next to alcoholism? Quatsch! Innuendo.

I've read for years that Mohnke was despised by his own men to include Dietrich and senior officers of LSSAH. Interesting then that Dietrich cherry picks Mohnke for commands. Meyer is photographed having a joke with Mohnke and he is never far from the same inner circle pictures that always make the rounds.

A good leader has to be tough.
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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#74

Post by eindhoven » 15 Nov 2014, 06:17

Sorry to break it up - Just want it easier on the eyes. ( ‘The Panzers and the Battle of Normandy’
– Georges Bernage & ‘Grenadiere’– Kurt Meyer )

Early in the afternoon of 8th June, Meyer discussed his plan of attack with Obersturmbannfuhrer Max Wünsche
commander of the 12 SS Panzer Regiment
They planned a high speed thrust deep into the enemy positions
taking them by surprise. The attack was to be directed towards Brettevllle l'Orgeilleuse via the small village of
Rots to the west of Caen. The 1st and Companies of Panthers were to spearhead the attack supported by
the Reconnaissance Company of the 25th Panzer Grenadier Regiment and a Battery of Wespes. This force
was weak In Infantry but the 1st Batallion 26th Panzer Grenadier Regiment was also to lend support by attacking
from its positions about St. Manvieu.
Both Meyer and Wünsche were confident - these tactics had seldom
failed them on the Russian Front They were to command the attack together and both chose to accompany
their units into battle. Support from the 1st Battalion 26th Panzer Grenadier Regiment was important and Meyer
had discussed the attack with Mohnke_ His old friend promised him the support he needed in the form of
supporting attacks on Bretteville and Norrey. However, as a word of caution, Mohnke added that these attacks
depended on securing a solid base around Cardonville Farm, which had yet to be taken.


That afternoon as Meyer inspected the men of the 15th Reconnaissance Company, he was surprised by the
good mood of his young troops. He felt especially close to this elite company not only because he was an
experienced motorcycle reconnaissance soldier but also because he had taken a personal interest in their
training at Beverloo and instilled in them a special sense of pride. As the men mounted the tanks, SS
Oberscharfurer Helmut Belke an old comrade of Meyer, reminded him of a promise he made during while
training in Belgium. "Boys, the Reconnaissance Company is always the spearhead of the Regiment" he had
said. "So you bear a lot of responsibility. I promise you that I will be in your ranks to witness your baptism of
fire.
" Belke now drove the motorcycle combination that would carry Meyer into the forthcoming battle.

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Re: 'Fontenay le Pesnel' 8.6.44/Canadian 'Malmedy'

#75

Post by eindhoven » 15 Nov 2014, 06:54

One last consideration, the majority of atrocities coincidentally are committed in areas during this time frame, 7-14 June while KM has operational control of these battlefield areas and his own troops report him showing up at various commands at which he personally leads some engagements. The 8th of June being our own date of interest. Various commanders are under Kurt Meyer's tactical orders. Interesting to me is that after Witt's demise once KM assumes Divisional command which then limits his own ability to control from the front the killings in those areas taper off. Just my observation but historians, revisionists mostly, have pointed to Meyer assuming command and stopping the killings. Kurt Meyers absence is actually directly related to the killings waning.

klambie, thank you for seeing the logic in what I was trying to establish with respect to an order that essentially ignores any other responsible parties other than senior officers.

Heimdal
left to right, Either Max Wünsche or Kurt Meyer(partially obscured). Definitively Waldmüller, Mohnke, and Karl-Hienz Milius
Kurt Meyer, Waldmüller, mohnke, Milius.jpg

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