Hunting the old men.

[HaEn]

Sorry Timo, but neither my Dad, nor my Brother, both having advanced cancer, and living in the Netherlands, WANTED to die. That decission was made by the attenting "dokter", mt Dad got a "spuitje"(injection) and my brother was stuck full of morphine patches. So all is not black and white. But i do agree that one should have the right to choose between e painfull death and a relative less painfull. just "twee cent" HN.

[Ovidius]

Sorry Timo, but neither my Dad, nor my Brother, both having advanced cancer, and living in the Netherlands, WANTED to die. That decission was made by the attenting "dokter", mt Dad got a "spuitje"(injection) and my brother was stuck full of morphine patches.

Sorry to intefere, Sir(I don't want to be rude) but when did this happen?

~Ovidius

[Timo]

Hallo HaEn,

Dat is heel tragisch (ik weet er alles van) maar dit staat niet in verband met het "liberale" klimaat in Nederland, dwz dat het hier niet eerder of vaker voorkomt dan elders, hoewel de tegenstanders van de Nederlandse opvattingen dit graag wel zo zien.

mijn twee (euro) centen vanuit Amsterdam

[HaEn]

Sorry Timo, but neither my Dad, nor my Brother, both having advanced cancer, and living in the Netherlands, WANTED to die. That decission was made by the attenting "dokter", mt Dad got a "spuitje"(injection) and my brother was stuck full of morphine patches.

Sorry to intefere, Sir(I don't want to be rude) but when did this happen?

~Ovidius

My Dad in 1978, and my brother last year. At least they died without pain. Regards. HN.

[Ovidius]

Thank you.

[Angelo V]

First, his age is 78 and not 73 according to all papers I could check.
This is confirmed by C-News (Canada News) as can be seen at http://www.icedreams.canoe.ca/NationalT ... rimes.html.

That means he was 20 years old in 1944 when apparently involved in the killing, torturing and raping of a number of people (some state 11 while others talk about 18 and I couldn't check the Italian Military Prosecutor's papers to verify what's the actual number) (see http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cg ... ert_020501 and http://www.cbc.ca/disclosure/archives/0 ... ifert.html for more info.

Now, somebody asked where were the Prosecuting Authorities all these past 50 years to get that man a little earlier than they did.
I guess they were right there where they are now, but a couple of important things should be noticed.

1.) Many of those criminals who were indicted and prosecuted in the 60's and later, were simply hiding under aliases so that their true identity would not be discovered.

2.) Some of those "missing" criminals were said, to their luck and satisfaction, to have been actively helped to avoid a possible capture by members of the Catholic Church (even though they justified themselves by stating they did not know the wanted man was the one who was helped to migrate to South America, the U.S. , Canada or whatever). Whether that was true or not is beyond my knowledge.

3.) It is known that soon after the beginning of the Cold War the U.S. (CIA etc.) did hire or have strict relations with former German high officers like Gen. Reinhard Gehlen, (head of the German Intelligence on the Eastern Front) in order to set up their own spy web to counteract the Soviets' agenda. It is possible to presume that, among people who had nothing to do with mass murders and other warcrimes, a number of former butchers did their best to be hired in the new organization and thus avoid any disclosure of their infamous past.
As for the "Gehlen-CIA connection" check: http://www.baltech.org/lederman/CIA-923.html.
Check also:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/ ... 301306.stm (About the utilization of Klaus Barbie by the CIA)

Check also: http://www.geocities.com/dudar2000/Bcc.htm on the utilization of Belarus Nazis for the same purpose.
Nice transformation here: http://alexconstantine.50megs.com/a_cia_nazi.html (Didn't check the London Times for correctness of that report.)
Check also: http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/97unclass/naziwar.html
(Very interesting as coming from a government source).

They are just a very few posts about the subject which should deserve a real deep study to know how the whole question developed and to what actual extent.

I guess this is my answer to a few of the questions posed whereby it is possible to tell Mr. Ovidius to rejoice and get ready for a nice party with those "Mollusk" societies and governments (namely the so called Western democracies) he seems to disdain so much.
They helped you more than you'd dare to admit, Mr. Ovidius
I have strong critics about them too, you bet, but they start out exactly where yours seem to end. LOL, it looks we are always at the opposite side of the rope, hehe! Guess who is in the middle ?

You all take care. May Adolf be with you! (For those who care, of course).

[Ovidius]

I guess this is my answer to a few of the questions posed whereby it is possible to tell Mr. Ovidius to rejoice and get ready for a nice party with those "Mollusk" societies and governments (namely the so called Western democracies) he seems to disdain so much.
They helped you more than you'd dare to admit, Mr. Ovidius

They didn't help me even a little bit.

They "helped" apparently those men as long as they could use them and then throw them out like garbage, which is exactly what should be expected in given conditions. Just like they did with Wernher von Braun(who was sued at 65 for having been previously a "Nazi"; this was a push on his nerves that caused his premature death), and other men like him. That for the "Western democrats".

And just what the "other" guys(the Soviets) did with the Romanian POWs, whom they asked to join two mixed Soviet-Romanian divisions, the alternative being the POW camp(which, according to our dear friend Oleg, was not part of the Gulag network, but the conditions inside were hardly better). No Romanian historian(not even after 1990) ever dared to call those men on their name: traitors who fought against their own country. And you know why? Because it's a shame to ask a man how did he cooperated with the Commissar who held the pistol to his head. That's for the "other" flavor of the Soviet-Western dish, by no means less stinky that the former.

And they ended the direct use of them, "they" were not content to either leave them alone, or just plainly shoot them. No, they needed spectacular trials, media campaigns and all the stuff around. Not only they sent Nikolaus Schiffer to Romania, they cared to announce it clearly and loudly, to be sure the whole issue was heard by the entire planet. Of course, certain events that happened in Romania just weeks prior to this have no connection to the whole issue. Not at all! Just plain coincidence. Just like we are so stupid to believe that the state that has under its control the CIA, FBI, NSA and all the three-letter stuff just didn't perform any checks in the past, and did not know those men were around. Of course, some fishes escaped through the eyes of the net, but others were just there, recorded and ready to be used. Indeed, this is the word, used.

May Adolf be with you!

He can't, because he's just plain dead like a doornail. And why is he dead, and why even if he refused suicide he would have been just as dead, should be pretty obvious.

~Ovidius

[Angelo V]

Angelo V wrote:
I guess this is my answer to a few of the questions posed whereby it is possible to tell Mr. Ovidius to rejoice and get ready for a nice party with those "Mollusk" societies and governments (namely the so called Western democracies) he seems to disdain so much.
They helped you more than you'd dare to admit, Mr. Ovidius

Ovidius answered: They didn't help me even a little bit. They "helped" apparently those men as long as they could use them and then throw them out like garbage, which is exactly what should be expected in given conditions. Just like they did with Wernher von Braun(who was sued at 65 for having been previously a "Nazi"; this was a push on his nerves that caused his premature death), and other men like him. That for the "Western democrats".

[/url]

I didn't mean YOU personally, of course. The fact remains that re-vitalization of the Nazi phylosophy in its best Sunday dress, the one acceptable to liberals, religious fundamentalists, jetset-society, magnates of one of the many "dirty" empires which now and then make the front cover of the in-zines of the moment, and even that mid-bourgeoisie so dear to the eggheads of the Kennedy era, is simply due to the fact that those two-timing heros that were so faithfully tied up to the Nazi bandwagon made their way, at least temporarily (sometimes it lasted some decades though) through the bewildering world of Donald Duck and Uncle Scrooge and while wayfaring along the golden highways of the once hated kingdom of the "mollusks" they spread their soft gospel about how to give democracies that nerve they apparently lacked. No wonder their followers kept growing all the while, after all these once "s.o.b.'s" knew very well what they were talking about, so why not use them to our advantage ... It was but too natural that when two packs of wolves meet they may get along as soon as there are enough rabbits or deers to hunt and eat but when the game is gone or just too thin for both, the inevitable conclusion is that the weakest one will just meet his doom. If the weakest also happened to be trash, well, you're right, he'll be treated like garbage, but that was all in the game, wasn't it ?
As to Herr von Braun, well, he was a renowned scientist whose only fault was to have cooperated in designing and developing those funny flying bombs which enlightened the British hearts for a while when they felt them coming right up above their heads as signs of gratitude from their continental cousins, those Germans who went crazy for a delicate and peace-loving little man originally bearing a funny name: Adolf Schickelgruber. (Incidentally, try to stand up on attention in front of one of his portraits and while extending your right arm in salute, shout with all the breath you got in your throat "Heil Schickelgruber!".) See, funny flying object, funny names, funny sellouters, funny endings... So, while I'm never pleased to hear of any one dying before his time (this is a real tragedy when it happens), I'm bound to think that the man in question, even if 65 years old, might have a little bit more courage (according to the steel discipline he grew up with) and show those "darn Yankees" he had nothing to do with mass murders, Jew exploitation and massacre, Poles enslaving and genociding, Russian made like salad to dress up the dishes of the Feldherren while touring around their beloved country, Yugoslavs shot almost each day cause they didn't want to learn, Gypsies sent bumming around in the "3rd.-Heaven-To-Be", mentally weak made impromptu totally sound and rational by either injecting them with some revolutionary anti-depression drug or just spraying them with the voluptuous perfumes of a diesel or gasoline engine, plus all the rest coming from other places in Europe like France, Holland, Belgium, former ally Italy (including Sardinia and Sicily) who, if and when unlucky were just starved out of this earthly paradise... I mean Herr von Braun had nothing to do with all these authentic "seven wonders" delikatessen you go so proud of, so I think he would have stood a good chance to convince them that except for those "flying bunnies" (laughable little toys to help the British kids pass their time betting where they would fall, while their parents kept on having their 5 o'clock tea with a compassionate smile on their face), he had absolutely nothing to do with those abominable crimes.

As to the Soviets, I agree with you they didn't behave like the Western gentlemen, but you know, we must take into account their history, the fact that Adolf himself had already qualified them as "sub-human" and you can't expect much of an etiquette from a "sub-type" like that, do you ?
I have a notion though: could it be that those fellows being aware (they experienced that on their hide --or should I say skin ?) they were classified as sub-something, took advantage of that to show that even a sub-whatever can give back what he received ? It looks like Antonescu joined uncle Adolf when the former decided he needed badly some more room to breathe or else he'd feel he'd be choking realk soon. True that when the rats got closer the mice offered their allegiance, but maybe those rabid rats didn't believe their intentions were good, honest, not arising from terror or fear but out of a well demonstrated and prolonged experience of friendship towards the Russian people and government. Who knows, I think it was a matter of trust, lack of trust, I'd say, ehr, plus a difficulty with the language...ah, miserable outcome that didn't bring happiness to no one involved, but hey, we're only human, someone might say, or we're only "sub-human" another might answer. We'll see the next time, meanwhile the Romanians (I got a number of friends over there) said Socialism was not that bad once the Russians were kept out and well, I believe them, cause most of them are saying that back then you had rations, meager as they might be, but you got them (this even in Ceausescu's times), but now that the liberals (most of them former tovarish, of course) have got to the wheel, well the shops are filled with most anything but their pockets are as empty as they had never been .
Evidently, there's something wrong with these young democracies, I agree.

Finally, ok, they were used. Sure they were, but what would they expect to be ? We should not forget that while in usage they got well paid, had a life they never dreamed they could live while they were on the run and they only kept their fingers crossed so that it might last as long as never to end. Meanwhile, they spread their gospel, organized their clans, opened up their shops, gave the world some new papers and literature, and waited for the day they could be honestly revered as pure martyrs for the re-birth of a National Socialist paradise. Objectively, I consider the utilization chapter as something I wouldn't be proud of, but I must admit they made quite a good usage of that spell.

That's why I said the so-called "Mollusks" did your comrades (or Kameraden) a great big favor.

They'll sure remember you, wherever they are now. They hardly met such
a trusty "Waffenbruder" as the day they first read your nick on this great forum!

Allelujah! Bum again! Clippety-clop clippety-clop (imitating the mule drawn wagon carrying some ammo to an outpost on the field of ...this forum).

Regards.

[/b]

[Ovidius]

First of all, I would like to thank to our dear friend Mr. Angelo V for giving me the opportunity to familiarize myself with the English metaphoric language, which, to my shame, I must admit I haven't mastered until now, my field of interest being the technical/scientific language.

I didn't mean YOU personally, of course. The fact remains that re-vitalization of the Nazi phylosophy in its best Sunday dress, the one acceptable to liberals, religious fundamentalists, jetset-society, magnates of one of the many "dirty" empires which now and then make the front cover of the in-zines of the moment, and even that mid-bourgeoisie so dear to the eggheads of the Kennedy era, is simply due to the fact that those two-timing heros that were so faithfully tied up to the Nazi bandwagon made their way, at least temporarily (sometimes it lasted some decades though) through the bewildering world of Donald Duck and Uncle Scrooge and while wayfaring along the golden highways of the once hated kingdom of the "mollusks" they spread their soft gospel about how to give democracies that nerve they apparently lacked.

You see, here is the problem. Either you've understood nothing, or you are simply inventing something from thin air.

1. "Nazi philosophy", whatever you are trying to suggest by this, can't exist in the form that a political doctrine usually exists: shared by a coherent group of people, with clearly defined goals and methods.

Those political/social groups who claim any affinity to "Nazis" are either lying, or are not conscious of the true way the things work. They had imagined a "Nazi" Third Reich in the way they were told, and are trying to adpat their own complexes and passions to it. Racists view it as a super-racist world(and this maybe will amaze you: Stormfront.org considers Romanians to have been "Heroes of the White Race", forgetting obviously our opponents - Turks etc - were also White), Anti-Semites as a Judenfrei world, "Victorians" & "Puritans" and other scum like this to have been a restrictive world - which is their dream about Heaven on Earth, and so on. Even hooligan soccer/football supporters have adopted "Nazi" signs because in their mind they are symbols of toughness and martiality. Each of their visions is fragmentary, incomplete and flawed. Only unimportant individuals like myself and other suckers lost in the vortex of huge human populations, rejecting media influence, can have a vision which reflects partially the shining image of the Reich. "Partially", because my lack of sources, contacts with Reich veterans/survivors, time etc, but most of all my laziness, destroy any hope that one day I can know enough about what the Reich truly was.

2. There could have been no alliance between former "Nazis" and whoever else, for some purposes related to the attempt to inject some "Nazi" principles in other political/social systems.

The idea of this alliance must have stood on two bases: a) that "someone" wanted this, and b) that "he/she" would have had the means to do it.

Nobody with roots fixed in the soil of the "Kingdom of Mollusks" would have wanted it - the ruling classes because they had no interest in it and would have undermined their own position, the others because they see just part of the problem and do not understand it.

Spymasters and other people with high positions in the Reich had been attracted to this world, because "someone up there", in an organization with a three-letter name, wanted to exploit them - either their knowledge, or their wealth(treasures accumulated by dirty means during the war and salvaged by even dirtier means etc) When they were no longer useful, they were either diverted to other purposes(like N. Schiffer, to create diversions in key countries) or simply left over to do whatever they want. This, of course, when their execution was no longer desirable. A spymaster like Gehlen was, due to his position, useful because our dear Uncle Sam wanted to control their former ally(and there are clues that under the mask of Cold War, the alliance continued secretly), so he was used. And thrown down the toilet when he was no longer useful. Plus, his use, after time had passed, was propagandistic - a certain political group could have charged the predecessors on "collaboration with former Nazis" to gain political capital. Shell in another shell in another shell, and lie in another lie in another lie, as it's obvious politics do work - and they will forever do, despite your lamentations.

As to Herr von Braun, well, he was a renowned scientist whose only fault was to have cooperated in designing and developing those funny flying bombs

Oh well, now we do attack people because once they designed weapons.

OK, let's agree for a moment to your twisted idea. So Braun deserved to be punished for designing missiles. Ok, but they first used him, then, when he was no longer useful, instead of letting him retire, they used again his trial, because they needed a "Nazi" to keep the conscience of the minions alive; they needed a living enemy to show him and tell to everyone that "Nazis" still exist, in the "Never Again" style which is so familiar to them. Nizkor - "We will remember", but this doesn't help as long as the vast majority of the population doesn't remember as well - and a certain Mr. Spielberg had cared that they will.

Germans who went crazy for a delicate and peace-loving little man originally bearing a funny name: Adolf Schickelgruber. (Incidentally, try to stand up on attention in front of one of his portraits and while extending your right arm in salute, shout with all the breath you got in your throat "Heil Schickelgruber!".)

The Führer was born Adolf Hitler. His father had been Alois Schikelgruber, but he had been adopted by his uncle Hiedler, who asked him to take his name, and because of a mistake of the clerk who did the papers, Hiedler became Hitler. The son's name had been always Adolf Hitler, although the Austrian documents usually held the Austrian spelling of the name as Adolfus Hitler. But still Hitler and not Schikelgruber. It's maybe the fifth or sixth time this issue had appeared, counting also the appearance on the old forum. Once was annoying, now it's only extremely boring. If it does appear the seventh time, I'll just write the above in text file and use Copy/Paste.

Yugoslavs shot almost each day cause they didn't want to learn

I hope you are aware of the fact that the 1941 Yugoslav Government had prepared a secret proposal of alliance with Germany, and just the British-organized coup imposed an Anglophile government, forcing Hitler's hand, making him to invade because the danger of the Allies to open a second front there was too high and close. The massacres were not justified by a sort of hatred for the Yugoslavs, but just by the situation: plenty of polittical nuclei fighting each other and together the Germans, plenty of underground movements shooting each other from behind and together the Germans, Allies dropping supplies to the partisan groups which massacred each other and together the Germans etc. How to separate innocent from partisan bandit in this chaos that Hitler himself had named Kessel - "melting pot"? The invasion in itself should have never taken place - but then the British would have attacked Germany from the south... a vicious cycle. The ideal solution was a Pro-German leadership, and exactly this was pushed aside in the British-engineered coup, and the vicious cycle closed again.

I mean Herr von Braun had nothing to do with all these authentic "seven wonders" delikatessen

He didn't. He was engineer and weapons manufacturer, not hangman. These were hangman's jobs.

It looks like Antonescu joined uncle Adolf when the former decided he needed badly some more room to breathe or else he'd feel he'd be choking realk soon. True that when the rats got closer the mice offered their allegiance, but maybe those rabid rats didn't believe their intentions were good, honest, not arising from terror or fear but out of a well demonstrated and prolonged experience of friendship towards the Russian people and government.

Obviously the history of the Romanian-Russian relationships from 1774 to 1940 remains a mystery for you, so I'll just say the Protective Power was too eager to suffocate us with her love, and paid us so many friendly visits, that "we"/"they" couldn't have remained insensitive and "we"/they just decided suddenly to take the opportunity and pay back a friendly visits to our Russian/Soviet friends. Just to show them how much we like them, 'cause obviously we can't say otherwise. Right?

You may be right about Ion Antonescu; and even if you're right, so what!?

Who knows, I think it was a matter of trust, lack of trust, I'd say, ehr, plus a difficulty with the language...ah, miserable outcome that didn't bring happiness to no one involved, but hey, we're only human, someone might say, or we're only "sub-human" another might answer. We'll see the next time, meanwhile the Romanians (I got a number of friends over there) said Socialism was not that bad once the Russians were kept out and well, I believe them, cause most of them are saying that back then you had rations, meager as they might be, but you got them (this even in Ceausescu's times), but now that the liberals (most of them former tovarish, of course) have got to the wheel, well the shops are filled with most anything but their pockets are as empty as they had never been .

You see, it happens a strange coincidence that I actually live in the post-Ceausescu Romania, and an even strange coincidence, my neighbours are mostly industrial workers(or former industrial workers, nowadays in other trades), and when one talks to them around a beer, they will of course say that in Communism was better blah-blah-blah, but if you continue the discussion, they realize soon that they fare even now better than before, when the rations were very good, excellent, but helped nobody. If they were so eager about Communism, those in power would have kept some form of Communism just to have peace and silence in the country, because unrest is not good for business.(Or it is!?)

As for the difference between Socialism with Russians and Socialism without Russians, it's a thing not to be discussed on the forums. A foreigner won't understand, and most Romanians will refuse to read the information they have, so it's a dead end to say that whatever atrocities happened(and were not just a few) were mostly perpetrated not by the Russians, and not by the majority of local Communists, but by a third category which is better not to be talked about, and especially not here.

Evidently, there's something wrong with these young democracies, I agree.

Obviously.

Finally, ok, they were used. Sure they were, but what would they expect to be ? We should not forget that while in usage they got well paid, had a life they never dreamed they could live while they were on the run and they only kept their fingers crossed so that it might last as long as never to end. Meanwhile, they spread their gospel, organized their clans, opened up their shops, gave the world some new papers and literature, and waited for the day they could be honestly revered as pure martyrs for the re-birth of a National Socialist paradise. Objectively, I consider the utilization chapter as something I wouldn't be proud of, but I must admit they made quite a good usage of that spell.

Re-birth that apparently won't happen. And I can bet $100 if we find one of them(he can be even N. Schiffer) and question him, he will admit that he couldn't have hoped to live again in the Reich. The idea that they conspired to rebuild the Reich is illogical from our point of view and childish from their point of view, because the ones who have used them would have never allowed them this. A golden leash it's still a leash, and a golden cage with diamonds it's still a cage.

As for your contempt on the scum politicians and hatred on the "bloody Nazis", they're pretty much useless. You can only do what the ostrich does, to hide your head in the sand, or what the 18th century Englishmen did when they saw the Australian platypus: they said "this doesn't exist". At least Hitler had tried to do something, and millions of people like you volunteered to help the Allies to crush him.

Sorry for the typos, but it's 3:21 in the morning, I've typed it very fast and I don't want to come back and correct them. I just expect to see this thread also closed, like plenty others.

~Ovidius

[Michael Miller]

Ovidius:

Re: Prof. Dr. Wernher Freiherr von Braun, born 23. Mar. 1912, NSDAP-Nr. 5 738 692 / SS-Nr. 185 068; promoted SS-Sturmbannführer, attached to Staff of SS-Oberabschnitt "Ostsee": 28. Jun. 1943.

Perhaps designing a weapon was no crime. But he did bear some responsibility for the means used to construct those weapons. That is, for the thousands of deaths attributable to the manufacture of the A-4/V-2 rocket in subterranean facilities in the Harz Mountains (notably at KL-Nordhausen, aka Mittelbau Dora). Surely he was aware of the conditions in these facilities- he visited Dora on several occasions.

He died at age 65 of cancer on 16. Jun. 1977. Who, if anyone, was in the process of suing him (and thus, if I read you correctly, bringing about the cancer which killed him)?

Von Braun was certainly no "victim" of the Western governments. In 1970 he was appointed Deputy Assistant Director for Planning at NASA.

Regards,
~ Mike Miller

[Ovidius]

Perhaps designing a weapon was no crime. But he did bear some responsibility for the means used to construct those weapons. That is, for the thousands of deaths attributable to the manufacture of the A-4/V-2 rocket in subterranean facilities in the Harz Mountains (notably at KL-Nordhausen, aka Mittelbau Dora). Surely he was aware of the conditions in these facilities- he visited Dora on several occasions.

While the "modern"/post-WWII people weren't quite aware of this, so they needed some propagandistic "tapage" to be aware from then on.

I wonder how many were aware nowadays that the head of the US space program was a distant relative of Eva Braun, therefore relative by alliance to Hitler? 8)

He died at age 65 of cancer on 16. Jun. 1977. Who, if anyone, was in the process of suing him (and thus, if I read you correctly, bringing about the cancer which killed him)?

I don't have right here the details, but I'm sure our friend Scott Smith can bring some info. All that I know is that von Braun was pushed out of his position in the US space program, with justice complications, and the reason provided was "Nazi" involvement. There were some documentaries on him that dealt with the issue.

~Regards,

Ovidius

PS Stress is admitted by physicians as a cause for cancer.

[Scott Smith]

I'm not aware that von Braun was ever persecuted by the U.S. government either. I believe what killed him was lung cancer and those American cigarettes he was so fond of!


Perhaps Ovidius is thinking of Arthur Rudolf, who had been the director of the Saturn V booster rocket team and was closely linked to the Mittelwerk V-2 assembly plant at Nordhausen.

Rudolf was hounded by the OSI in the 1980s and had his American citizenship revoked, thus forcing him to return to (then) West Germany. Personally, I feel that deporting Rudolf, who served the USA well, is a disgrace. He has not been tried with any warcrimes, AFAIK.

Mike poses an interesting question, however. Wernher von Braun was the technical director of the A4 rocket program at Peenemünde which used prison labor from the nearby Trassenheide camp. He only visited the Mittelwerk plant at Nordhausen once, which he described as "depressing."

What should von Braun have done differently?

Speer claimed to have tried to improve conditions for the V-2 prisoners at Nordhausen. Conditions did improve once better facilities were constructed after the spring of 1944. Before then, prisoners had to live in the tunnels for the winter while the crash program was in high gear. Preparation for production of the V-2 began under the command of the "ruthless" General Kammler in the fall of 1943, and actual production of the V-2 commenced in early, 1944. On average, about 600 missiles per month were completed in a highly-dispersed program. I posted a chart once showing the monthly Mittlelwerk production figures. I can probably find it again if anyone is interested.

Trassenheide Camp:

"The special cemetery with the remains of all prisoners of the camp died in Peenemünde. It is estimated that there are over 2000 people buried here."

[Scott Smith]

I don't have right here the details, but I'm sure our friend Scott Smith can bring some info. All that I know is that von Braun was pushed out of his position in the US space program, with justice complications, and the reason provided was "Nazi" involvement. There were some documentaries on him that dealt with the issue.

Dr. von Braun was pushed out of the space program for two reasons: 1) He was a darling of the Democrats for the Kennedy-Johnson space-race, with Nixon, a cost-conscious Republican back in office for a second term in 1972, while the moon exploration program got cut short, and 2) von Braun was a very strong advocate of a very expensive Mars exploration program during those recession years for the Aerospace industry. My own dad was working on the American SST (supersonic transport) in 1971 when the program was killed and he nearly wound up pumping gas.

I don't know about a lawsuit against von Braun but I could be wrong.

[Ovidius]

Dr. von Braun was pushed out of the space program for two reasons: 1) He was a darling of the Democrats for the Kennedy-Johnson space-race, with Nixon, a cost-conscious Republican back in office for a second term in 1972, while the moon exploration program got cut short, and 2) von Braun was a very strong advocate of a very expensive Mars exploration program during those recession years for the Aerospace industry. My own dad was working on the American SST (supersonic transport) in 1971 when the program was killed and he nearly wound up pumping gas.

Why the need to publicly charge Braun with "Nazism"? Why not just make him retire silently?

And even if we leave Braun aside, why were the media bastards put under alert by the Seifert case? Why the excessive publicity around?

Why Nikolaus Schiffer's expulsion was so well covered in media that a declaration from the Romanian Prime Minister was necessary to calm down the things?

Who and why stirs the water and rocks the boat all the time !?

(Rhetorical questions; Mr. HaEn can give better answers )

~Ovidius

[Scott Smith]

Good questions, Ovidius. But I don't remember von Braun ever being publicly charged with "Nazism." It may be that he died too soon (1977). The OSI was only created in 1979.

Since OSI began operation in 1979, 61 Nazi persecutors have been stripped of U.S. citizenship, and 48 have been removed [from] this country OSI Director Rosenbaum stated. Nearly 300 persons are currently under investigation by OSI, he added.

(Press Release, 1998)