Why the Jews and the gas chambers?

[Roberto]

In my post # 812 (11/19/01 1:55:59 pm) on the thread

Non-Jewish victims of Nazi violence
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... =1&stop=20

of the old forum, I provided a rough breakdown of the victims of Nazi violence outside the scope of combat actions.

I have made an equally rough subdivision by causes of death under the following categories:

- Gassing
- Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.
- Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.

Here it is:

Jews
Gassing: 3,000,000
Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 1,500,000
Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.: 500,000

Gypsies
Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 100,000
Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.: 100,000

Soviet prisoners of war
Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 500,000
Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.: 2,500,000

Soviet civilians (other than Jews and Gypsies)
Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 1,000,000
Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.: 5,000,000

Polish civilians (other than Jews and Gypsies)
Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 500,000
Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.: 1,500,000

Yugoslavian civilians (other than Jews and Gypsies)
Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 500,000
(only operations by German forces; atrocities of the Croatian Ustase are not included)

Civilians of other European countries (other than Jews and Gypsies)
Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 100,000

Physically or mentally disabled Reich citizens
Gassing: 100,000

Political opponents in the Reich
Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.: 100,000

Total

Gassing: 3,100,000 (18.24 %)

Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 4,200,000 (24.71 %)

Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.: 9,700,000 (57.06 %)

The above distribution of groups of victims by causes of death refers to the way in which the overwhelming majority of the victims in the respective group were killed and does not take into account exceptions to the rule. For example, a number of Gypsies were gassed, and so were a number of Soviet prisoners of war, but the numbers are so small (considering the orders of magnitude in question) as to be unrepresentative of the causes of death for these groups and were therefore not taken into consideration in the above breakdown. On the other hand, not all mental patients who fell victim to the "euthanasia" action were killed by gassing, but that was nevertheless the representative cause of death for this group. And so on.

What the breakdown clearly shows is that, just like his Communist counterparts Stalin and Mao Tse Tung, Hitler killed most of his victims by putting them under living conditions that led to their death from starvation, exposure, disease or exhaustion. Next in line was outright killing by “traditional” methods such as shooting, hanging and burning, while the innovative method of gassing accounted for less than one-fifth of the victims of Nazi violence against unarmed non-combatants outside the scope of combat actions.

If we accept that the groups of Nazi victims that I listed are victims of Nazi genocide and mass murder and not victims of war, the question arises why, then, the “Revisionists”, one of whose purposes is obviously to make the National Socialist regime appear in a better light (a few exceptions there may be, but this is clearly the rule, in my opinion), concentrate on an event that produced less than a third of the victims of Nazi violence - the Jewish Holocaust - and in respect to this event focus their attention on a killing method that accounted for less than one-fifth of the victims of Nazi genocide and mass murder.

This can only be partially explained by the vast amount of physical and documentary evidence to many of the “other” killings that the killers left behind - what Professor van Pelt would call “unintentional evidence”. Such has never deterred “Revisionists” from trying to make believe that the earth is flat, anyway. There are also other, probably more important reasons.

One is the obviously anti-Semitic character of the “Revisionist” stance. I dare say that, if the victims of the gas chambers in the extermination camps had mostly been not Jews but Soviet prisoners of war, we would have but a fraction of the “Revisionist” flat-earthing that we observe these days.

Another is the fact that, while the Nazis’ atrocities against other ethnic and social groups are mostly known to few people other than the historians and criminal justice authorities who have researched and investigated these events, the Nazi genocide of the Jews is perhaps the one such event that the public at large has heard most of. This means that making disappear or “sizing down” the slaughter of the Jews is likely to make the Nazis look better in the eyes of most people, who know little about what else the Nazi regime did.

Why is it, now, that among the Jewish victims the “Revisionists” pick out those of the extermination camps?

In regard to the killings by the Einsatzgruppen and other German formations in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union, which accounted for about 1,500,000 victims according to most estimates (German historian Gerd Robel, in the study Dimensionen des Völkermords edited by Wolfgang Benz et al, even concluded on a higher death toll, above two million), a major deterrent may be the vast amounts of physical evidence that were left behind to be analyzed by Soviet investigation commissions despite the frantic efforts of Blobel’s Kommando 1005 and, even more so, the very explicit documentary evidence such as the Operational Situation Reports USSR that the Einsatzgruppen sent to the RSHA on an almost daily basis. By contrast, and as approvingly remarked by Goebbels in his famous diary entry of 27 March 1942, the transportation of the Jews to the extermination camps in occupied Poland went about with the greatest discretion and circumspection. Most documentary evidence to the killings was destroyed, and in the documents that survived the killing is mostly circumscribed by euphemisms which, though clear enough for criminal justice authorities and historians, allow “Revisionists” to sell their “they said nothing in there about killing” - nonsense to a number of gullible and uncritical readers.

Another reason why “Revisionists” focus on the good old gas chambers is the fact that for some reason this unconventional killing method appealed more to the public imagination and thus stuck to peoples’ minds in a way out of proportion to its comparative importance in relation to “traditional” methods, by no means any less effective and/or cruel, such as shooting, hanging and starvation. This, as a matter of fact, is even invoked by “Revisionists” on occasion as their motivation for negating the gas chambers.

But the strongest appeal that the gas chambers hold for “Revisionists” is another, in my opinion. It is the fact that, due to its very bizarre and unconventional nature, this killing method is particularly suited to “technical” or “scientific” allegations that it couldn’t have worked as described by witnesses. Even the dumbest people know or can imagine what the bullet of an infantry carbine fired at close range does to a human body, but a great number of gullible folks may be taken in by a stance about the absurdity of people having been gassed with “insecticide”, a term that Mr. Average Citizen associates to comparatively harmless products such as Baygon and DDT. How are such people to know that the “insecticide” in question - Zyklon B - was far more lethal to human beings than to insects, that it consisted of one of the most deadly poisons known to man, of which 1 mg per kg of body weight are enough to kill a human being, and that this lethality together with its very low evaporation point and the wide availability related to its use as an insecticide made it an ideal substance for homicidal killing? The “Revisionists” won't tell them, for sure.

Last but not least, the focus on the technicalities of certain killing devices is related to the inability of the “Revisionists” to provide plausible answers to the essential questions: What happened to all those people? What happened to the many hundreds of thousands that some documentary evidence declares to have been taken to places where they never arrived, while other documentary evidence shows them to have been taken to places from which they never came out alive? Few “Revisionists” have tried to provide “answers” to these question, one of the exceptions being W.N. Sanning, who, through a number of dishonest manipulations of demographic data - such as trying to make out that between 1931 and 1939 about 100,000 Polish Jews emigrated every year, when actually the total of emigrations during the years 1931-1937 was 109,716 - tried to get most European Jews out of the reach of the Nazis, leaving them with only about 300,000 (!) to kill. With Sanning’s falsities debunked (e.g. by John Zimmermann in his book Holocaust Denial), “Revisionists” are faced with the dilemma that, in the face of their inability to account for the fate of millions of people who disappeared from the face of the earth during Nazi rule, their haggling about the technical aspects of given killing methods is actually nothing other than a discussion about the sex of the angels.

[viriato]

Medorjurgen wrote:

Soviet civilians (other than Jews and Gypsies)
Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 1,000,000
Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.: 5,000,000

Could you give those numbers (approximative?) by ethnicty/republic of origin?

Polish civilians (other than Jews and Gypsies)
Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 500,000
Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.: 1,500,000

Does this number (that again I think is only approximative) includes only poles or does it also includes ukrainians, belorrussians, germans, lithuanians and others, living in the pre-1939 Poland?

[Roberto]

Medorjurgen wrote:

Soviet civilians (other than Jews and Gypsies)
Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 1,000,000
Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.: 5,000,000

Could you give those numbers (approximative?) by ethnicty/republic of origin?

Polish civilians (other than Jews and Gypsies)
Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 500,000
Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.: 1,500,000

Does this number (that again I think is only approximative) includes only poles or does it also includes ukrainians, belorrussians, germans, lithuanians and others, living in the pre-1939 Poland?

Viriatus,

All figures are very rough estimates of mine based on various sources I’ve had a look at.

The upper figure for Soviet civilians is from Richard Overy, Russia’s War, page 151:

Hundreds of ruined villages and a death toll that passed an estimated one million bore terrible testimony to the price paid for Hitler’s ‘kind of terror’.

Overy’s source is Maslov, A.A. ‘Concerning the Role of Partisan Warfare in Soviet Military Doctrine in the 1920s and 1930s’ , Journal of Slavic Military History, 9 (1996). How the figure is broken down by the various Soviet Republics I don’t know. The figure for Belorussia, according to the recent study Kalkulierte Morde by German historian Christian Gerlach, is ca. 345,000. The figure of ca. one million victims of anti-partisan warfare in all occupied territories of the USSR is also mentioned in Alexander Werth's classic Russia at War.

For the deaths by starvation, etc. my sources are the following works referred to by R.J. Rummel in his book Democide: Nazi Genocide and Mass Murder, Transaction Publishers New Brunswick & London, 1992:

Inside the USSR:

Gil Elliot, Twentieth Century Book of the Dead, 1972 Allen Lane The Penguin Press, London, pages 54-58:
6,500,000 to 7,500,000 (“from famine disease, exposure; 0.5 million assumed to have died after the war and are not included”)

Roy Medvedev, Let History Judge: The Origins and Consequences of Stalinism, translated by Colleen Taylor, 1972 Alfred A. Knopf, New York, page 140:
5,000,000 (“famine/disease; from Soviet demographer M. Maksudov")

It does not become clear from Rummel’s references if the figures include the victims of the siege of Leningrad, so I assumed that they do. Most estimates on the death toll of that siege are in the order of ca. 1,000,000 victims. See e.g. Harrison E. Salisbury, The 900 Days. The Siege of Leningrad, Avon Books, New York, 1970, pages 590 and following:

Estimates of the Leningrad death toll as high as 2,000,000 have been made by some foreign students. These estimates are too high. A total for Leningrad and vicinity of something over 1,000,000 deaths attributable to hunger, and an overall total of deaths, civilian and military, on the order of 1,300,000 to 1,500,000 seems reasonable.

Forced labor deportees:

Mark R. Elliot, Pawns of Yalta: Soviet Refugees and America’s Role in Their Repatriation, 1982 University of Illinois Press, page 23:
750,000 to 800,000 (“Eastern workers; context and reference to Dallin, 1957, pp. 451-2, imply these were Soviets”)

("Dallin" is Alexander Dallin, German Rule in Russia 1941-1945: A Study of Occupation Policies, 1957 Macmillan, New York. It was long considered the standard work on the topic, and I would be grateful to anyone who can tell me where I may find a copy.)

Nikolai Tolstoy, Stalin’s Secret War, 1981 Holt, Rinehart and Wilson, New York, page 282: 500,000 (“in Germany”)

Making an allowance for exaggerations and/or civilians who fell victim to the consequences of Stalin’s “scorched earth” policy during retreat in 1941/42, I assumed a total of ca. 5,000,000 victims of starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment among the Soviet population, including those of the siege of Leningrad. That this figure is by no means on the high side is shown by the following passage from an online article by German historian Wigbert Benz that I recently transcribed and translated on the thread

Operation Barbarossa
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 63a2c24a5a

of this forum:

Current research, for example Hans-Heinrich Nolte, Eastern Europe historian at Hannover University, estimate the Soviet human victims of "Operation Barbarossa", taking into account recent Russian research, at ca. 27 million - thereof seven million starvation dead behind the front line alone.

Source of original German text:

http://www.wk-2.de/unternehmen_barbarossa.html

A breakdown by ethnicity is harder to come by. I found the following in chapter 1 of Rummel’s Democide:

Besides Jews, the Germans murdered near 2,400,000 Poles, 3,000,000 Ukrainians, 1,593,000 Russians, and 1,400,000 Byelorussians, many of these among the best and brightest men and women. The Nazis killed in cold blood nearly one out of every six Polish or Soviet citizens, including Jews, under their rule

.

This chapter can be read online under the link:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM

The term “under their rule” suggests that Rummel’s figures do not include the victims of the siege of Leningrad, while it does not become clear from the text whether they include prisoners of war. A comparison with the above mentioned figures, however, suggests that the figures refer only to civilians in the occupied territories.

Soviet historian G. Kumanev, in his essay "The German Occupation Regime in Occupied Territory of the USSR (1941-1944)", published in the collection A Mosaic of Victims: Non Jews Persecuted and Murdered by the Nazis, edited by Michael Berenbaum, 1990 New York University Press, pages 128-141, gave the following breakdown of occupation victims in the main Soviet republics:

Russia 1,700,000
Belorussia 2,500,000
Ukraine 4,000,000

So far for the USSR. As to Poland, the figure of two million non-Jewish dead is in line with the following information provided at my request by our fellow poster Hetman (then DPWES):

Some figures quoted by the Polish government in 1947

The total death toll was 6 028 000, or 22% of the pre-war population.

644 000 were killed as a direct result of the war.


http://www.holocaustforgotten.co...shgirl.jpg


3 577 000 died in death camps, executions and German army actions against civilians.

1 286 000 died in the camps as a result of epidemics and malnutrition.


http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/wojcik.jpg


521 000 died outside of the camps as a result of forced labor, beatings and torture.

590,000 people were disabled during the war.

200,000 Poles were forcibly shipped off to Germany to work there. Most survived.

During the Warsaw uprising, the Germans killed 23,000 Home Army soldiers and 180,000 civilians. 50,000 civilians died during the initial siege of Warsaw in 1939.

So just after the war it was thought that about 3,000,000 non-Jews died in Poland. But recently, that figure has been revised by Polish historians to about 2,000,000. (I don't have much info yet on why they did this, or how. See this link: fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holoca...MMPOL.HTM)

According to the 1947 Polish government figures, as a result of the German efforts to kill off the Polish intelligentsia, 43% lawyers (5610 people), 39% doctors(7500), 27% priests (2647), and 40% of university professors (700) were executed.
(Most of those who survived either emigrated or were sent to Siberia and Kazakhstan by the Russians. Some have since come back, others died, while some still remain.)

A website on the subject (Poland's Holocaust) says this: During the war, Poland lost 45% of her doctors, 57% of her attorneys, 40% of her professors, 30% of her technicians, more than 18% of her clergy, and most of her journalists. Poland's educated class was purposely targeted because the Nazis knew that this would make it easier to control the country.

http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/polen.jpg

See the thread

Polish casualties during WWII (for Roberto)
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... =196.topic

Hetman/DPWES also provided the following passage from the USHMM website:

In the past, many estimates of losses were based on a Polish report of 1947 requesting reparations from the Germans; this often cited document tallied population losses of 6 million for all Polish "nationals" (Poles, Jews, and other minorities). Subtracting 3 million Polish Jewish victims, the report claimed 3 million non-Jewish victims of the Nazi terror, including civilian and military casualties of war.

Documentation remains fragmentary, but today scholars of independent Poland believe that 1.8 to 1.9 million Polish civilians (non-Jews) were victims of German Occupation policies and the war. This approximate total includes Poles killed in executions or who died in prisons, forced labor, and concentration camps. It also includes an estimated 225,000 civilian victims of the 1944 Warsaw uprising, more than 50,000 civilians who died during the 1939 invasion and siege of Warsaw, and a relatively small but unknown number of civilians killed during the Allies' military campaign of 1944—45 to liberate Poland.

http://www.ushmm.org/education/resource/poles/poles.pdf


Neither of these sources contains a breakdown by ethnicity, but it must be assumed that they refer to all civilians living on the territory of the former Polish Republic who were not Jewish. The difference between the figures first provided by Hetman/DPWES and those mentioned on the USHMM website may be due to the fact that the Soviets also killed a large number of Polish citizens during their occupation of the Eastern part of the country between 1939 and 1941.

I would like to give you more detailed figures, but it seems that research on many of these issues, long dormant behind the Iron Curtain, has not progressed much so far.

Regards,

Roberto

[Scott Smith]

So, what's your point, Medo? Without the war and the gassings what have you left? Wars are not fought on the moon, the last time I checked.

By the way, what about Crimes of Capitalism in your Doomsday count? If the State, Church and financial interests passively let people starve or kill each other in the streets would this count, or only "sexy" crimes committed actively by "safe" demons?

[Roberto]

So, what's your point, Medo? Without the war and the gassings what have you left?

A lot of mass murder. Unless, of course, the Reverend's apologetically wide definition, which apparently considers even the Einsatzgruppen killings to have been "war", is applied.

By the way, what about Crimes of Capitalism in your Doomsday count?

This is a Third Reich forum. At least it was the last time I checked.

As to what my point is, I suggest a careful reading of my first post on this thread. The Reverend's having felt compelled to rabidly mouth off suggests that I made that point.

Here are some victims of "war":

Berenbaum, Michael. The World Must Know. ISBN 0-316-09135-9. Page 96.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... /eg-07.ref


I would like to show non-Jewish victims of Nazi mass murder, but unfortunately the web is all too judeocentric.

[viriato]

To medorjurgen:

Thanks for the information you're given us. Unfortunally I don't have much access to your bibliography, but neverthless you have been very helpful. I have already looked at Rummel's site and found it very intersting.

"Bom fim de semana!"

[Roberto]

To medorjurgen:

Thanks for the information you're given us. Unfortunally I don't have much access to your bibliography, but neverthless you have been very helpful. I have already looked at Rummel's site and found it very intersting.

"Bom fim de semana!"

Obrigado, igualmente. Cumprimentos à Cidade Invicta.

[Scott Smith]

Hi Roberto,

I see some Holo-Art in photography but I still don't see your point. Your bloodless and sanitized wars are fairy tales. That's why wars should not be fought except as a last resort, and certainly not for moral abstractions, seeking monsters to destroy. Armed conflicts are a complete Gestalt of political, ideological, cultural, social and economic forces in struggle, not suited knights in armor and tiddleywink tournaments held on the moon away from all "noncombatants" and unlegislated suffering.

How many of your victims died prior to September 1, 1939?

[Roberto]

Hi Roberto,

I see some Holo-Art in photography but I still don't see your point. Your bloodless and sanitized wars are fairy tales. That's why wars should not be fought except as a last resort, and certainly not for moral abstractions, seeking monsters to destroy. Armed conflicts are a complete Gestalt of political, ideological, cultural, social and economic forces in struggle, not suited knights in armor and tiddleywink tournaments held on the moon away from all "noncombatants" and unlegislated suffering.

Blah, blah, blah. As desperate and unconvincing as ever.

How many of your victims died prior to September 1, 1939?

None. The figures refer to the period between 01.09.1939 and 09.05.1945.

[Scott Smith]

Blah, blah, blah. As desperate and unconvincing as ever.

I don't need to be convincing since I don't have a Holo-Agenda. Just asking questions, as you know that I am wont to do.

How many of your victims died prior to September 1, 1939?

None. The figures refer to the period between 01.09.1939 and 09.05.1945.

That's what I thought. And by what prestidigitation do you remove World War II from the period between September 1, 1939 and May 5, 1945? Why no postwar victims?

Also, why are mercy-killings included in your Doomsday census?

[MaPen]

Mr Smith,

I can't see how the killing of physically or mentally disabled people has anything to do with a mercy.

regards,

MaPen

[Roberto]

Blah, blah, blah. As desperate and unconvincing as ever.

I don't need to be convincing since I don't have a Holo-Agenda.

Why, and I thought the Reverend wanted to convince the audience of this forum of the virtues of "Revisionism". Now I see he has chosen to rely on blind faith rather than argumentative persuasion.

Just asking questions, as you know that I am wont to do.

What questions? Such meant to make a fuss about or on account of irrelevant minor issues, or such that denote genuine interest in the subject at hand? I've seen the former but not the latter from Reverend Smith.

How many of your victims died prior to September 1, 1939?

None. The figures refer to the period between 01.09.1939 and 09.05.1945.

That's what I thought. And by what prestidigitation do you remove World War II from the period between September 1, 1939 and May 5, 1945?

Oh, I forgot that the Reverend dates the commencement of World War II to 28 July 1919, the day of signature of the Versailles Treaty. Apart from that being a one-sidedly pro-Nazi outlook and that the Reverend's beloved Führer and his minions were responsible for their own actions independently of the circumstances that propelled them into power, I see no reasonable arguments by which the planned and organized mass murder of prisoners of war and civilians outside the scope of however brutal acts of war can be considered a necessary feature of warfare. Aside from the massacre of the Armenians in Turkey, the First World War saw comparatively little of that, but it became the feature by which the Second World War is most vividly remembered, with Nazi Germany being first and foremost among all belligerents in such practices. Could it be that certain differences between the Nazi regime and the Kaiserreich had something to do with it?

Beside the 2 million prisoners of war who were already dead when the memorandum quoted at the beginning [Rosenberg’s letter to Keitel of 28 February 1942] was written, another 1.3 million died until the end of the war - about 3.3 million of a total of 5.7 million Soviet prisoners of war (57.8 per cent) died in German captivity.
A comparison with the fate of Russian prisoners of war in the First World War raises the question as to the causes of this enormously high mortality. Back then 1,434,500 Russians had been taken prisoner by the Germans. The mortality of Russian prisoners was 5.4 per cent and thus corresponded to the average mortality of prisoners in the custody of the Western and Central European powers, although it was higher than that of the other prisoners in German hands (3.5 per cent).

Translated from Christian Streit, Keine Kameraden. Die Wehrmacht und die sowjetischen Kriegsgefangenen 1941-1945[i/], Bonn 1997, page 10

Why no postwar victims?

If you want, we can include the victims of the postwar expulsions of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe among those for whose violent death outside the scope of combat actions the Nazis were responsible, which would go in the direction of the point that Hetman tried to make on other threads. But my approach was somewhat more benevolent for your beloved Führer. I considered only those whom the Nazi regime did to death itself in one way or the other.

Also, why are mercy-killings included in your Doomsday census?

What does the Reverend call "mercy killings"? I assume he's referring to the Nazi "euthanasia" program of murdering physically and/or mentally disabled people. Very instructive, Reverend. Thanks for another splendid insight into the contents of your mind.


Now read a translation of what your master wrote into his diary on 27.03.1942:

Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

The former Gauleiter of Vienna, who is to carry this measure through, is doing it with considerable circumspection and according to a method that does not attract too much attention. A judgment is being visited upon the Jews that, while barbaric, is fully deserved by them. The prophesy which the Fuehrer made about them for having brought on a new world war is beginning to come true in a most terrible manner. One must not be sentimental in these matters. If we did not fight the Jews, they would destroy us. It's a life-and-death struggle between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus. No other government and no other regime would have the strength for such a global solution of this question. Here, too, the Fuehrer is the undismayed champion of a radical solution necessitated by conditions and therefore inexorable. Fortunately a whole series of possibilities presents itself for us in wartime that would be denied us in peacetime. We shall have to profit by this.

The ghettoes that will be emptied in the cities of the General Government now will be refilled with Jews thrown out of the Reich. This process is to be repeated from time to time. There is nothing funny in it for the Jews, and the fact that Jewry's representatives in England and America are today organizing and sponsoring the war against Germany must be paid for dearly by its representatives in Europe - and that's only right.

Source of quote:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goe ... 942-mar-27

Emphasis is mine.

And here are some quotes about what the Nazis intended to do to the Slaves after winning the war:

Eine Zerstörung der russischen Verarbeitungsindustrie in der Waldzone [des Nordens] ist auch für die fernere Friedenszukunft Deutschlands eine unbedingte Notwendigkeit. […] Aus all dem folgt, daß die deutsche Verwaltung in diesem Gebiet wohl bestrebt sein kann, die Folgen der zweifellos eintretenden Hungersnot zu mildern und den Naturalisieringsprozess zu beschleunigen. Man kann bestrebt sein, diese Gebiete intensiver zu bewirtschaften im Sinne einer Ausdehnung der Kartoffelanbaufläche und anderer für den Konsum wichtiger, hohe Erträge gebender Früchte. Die Hungersnot ist dadurch nicht zu bannen. Viele 10 Millionen von Menschen werden in diesem Gebiet überflüssig werden und werden sterben oder nach Sibirien auswandern müssen.

Source of quote: Ernst Klee / Willi Dreßen, “Gott mit uns”: Der Deutsche Vernichtungskrieg im Osten 1941-1945, Frankfurt 1989, page 23. Reference: Bericht Wirtschaftsstab Ost, Gruppe Landwirtschaft vom 23.5.1941, Nuremberg Document 126-EC, IMT, Vol. XXXVI.

My translation:

A destruction of the Russian manufacturing industry in the forest zone [of the North] is an absolute necessity also for the far-away peacetime future of Germany […] From all this there follows that the German administration in this area may well attempt to diminish the effects of the famine that will doubtlessly occur. It can be attempted to manage these areas more intensively in the sense of an extension of the area for cultivating potatoes and other high-output agricultural products important for consumption. The famine cannot thereby be controlled. Many tens of millions of people will become superfluous in this area and will die or have to emigrate to Siberia.

Emphasis is mine.

“Lächerliche hundert Millionen Slawen”, so Hitler am 6.8.1942, “werden wir absorbieren oder verdrängen. Wenn hier einer von Betreuen spricht, dem muss man gleich ins KZ stecken“ (Speer, 1981, 422).

Source of quote:

Speer, A., Der Sklavenstaat. Meine Auseinandersetzung mit der SS, Stuttgart 1981, as quoted in Gunnar Heinsohn, Lexikon der Völkermorde, Hamburg 1998, page 305.

Translation (Heinsohn):

“A ridiculous 100 million Slavs”, said Hitler on 6.8.1942, “we will absorb or displace. Whoever speaks of taking care of these people should be put in a concentration camp right away” (Speer, 1981, 422).

[Erik]

Mr Medorjurgen has made an excellent summation of the relevant facts and controversies of the Holocaust and its denial (alt revision).

Since Medorjurgen is the most prolific contributor to this conference his summation certainly carries weight from this aspect too. Perhaps he is summing up the results of his “campaign” here at the Holocaust&Warcrimes – the unmolested territories and the vanquished molesters?

Hopefully, Mr Wendel will allow certain “off topic” excursions on the issues brought forth by the debate starter?

War is more than a “live” PC game, and brings moral and political aspects of its practices to the fore. (PC games do so too, perhaps? The debate in Germany concerning the “worst massacre there since the Second World War” – in Erfurt – gives evidence to this.)

Hopefully, too, Mr Medorjurgen will show some indulgence towards the “distinct smell of fish” he has learned to distinguish on the subjects of his debate-starter.

The questions are bound to “stink” since they concern aspects of ourselves in relation to others that truly decent people should know nothing about, perhaps. I. e. :

Why a Holocaust?

Why Revision?

Why this?

<<Gassing: 3,100,000 (18.24 %)

Shooting, hanging, burning, torture, etc.: 4,200,000 (24.71 %)

Starvation, disease, exposure, overwork, ill-treatment, etc.: 9,700,000 (57.06 %)>>

<<What the breakdown clearly shows is that, just like his Communist counterparts Stalin and Mao Tse Tung, Hitler killed most of his victims by putting them under living conditions that led to their death from starvation, exposure, disease or exhaustion. Next in line was outright killing by “traditional” methods such as shooting, hanging and burning, while the innovative method of gassing accounted for less than one-fifth of the victims of Nazi violence against unarmed non-combatants outside the scope of combat actions.>>

What can be attributed to the exigencies and consequences of war? The presence of an enemy suspected of forcing his attentions to similar practices in case of his victory?

What can be attributed to a will of destruction? A conscious effort to kill as many as possible in the face of an hopeless mission of conquering the world?

The senseless gassings must be considered to belong to this latter category. A certain school of historians thinks that Hitler decided to implement a “final solution” to the “jewish problem” when the war went wrong in the East.

<<For example, a number of Gypsies were gassed, and so were a number of Soviet prisoners of war, but the numbers are so small (considering the orders of magnitude in question) as to be unrepresentative of the causes of death for these groups and were therefore not taken into consideration in the above breakdown. On the other hand, not all mental patients who fell victim to the "euthanasia" action were killed by gassing, but that was nevertheless the representative cause of death for this group.>>

The jews were singled out as a group for “the innovative method of gassing” and were brought from all of the occupied Europe to three or four small exterminations camps in Poland for this purpose.

<<If we accept that the groups of Nazi victims that I listed are victims of Nazi genocide and mass murder and not victims of war, the question arises why, then, the “Revisionists”, one of whose purposes is obviously to make the National Socialist regime appear in a better light (a few exceptions there may be, but this is clearly the rule, in my opinion), concentrate on an event that produced less than a third of the victims of Nazi violence - the Jewish Holocaust - and in respect to this event focus their attention on a killing method that accounted for less than one-fifth of the victims of Nazi genocide and mass murder.>>

The question of “why” the “Revisionists”…” concentrate on an event that produced less than a third of the victims of Nazi violence – the Jewish Holocaust – and in respect to this event focus their attention on a killing method that accounted for less than one-fifth of the victims of Nazi genocide and mass murder” must – as Medorjurgen points out – be connected to the “why” of the Holocaust.

<<One is the obviously anti-Semitic character of the “Revisionist” stance. I dare say that, if the victims of the gas chambers in the extermination camps had mostly been not Jews but Soviet prisoners of war, we would have but a fraction of the “Revisionist” flat-earthing that we observe these days.>>

The “Revisionists” want to revise it for the same reason that the Nazis realized it – antisemitism.

The Nazis wanted to kill the jews – the “revisionists” want to resurrect antisemitism.

If the Jews are deprived of the Holocaust, their present legitimacy as a nation among nations will fall.

The unconditional surrender of Nazi Germany entailed cessions of territory to the adjoining nations and its acceptance of the guilt of the Holocaust to the nation of Jews.

The fear of the German “Revanchismus” from the nations of eastern Europe can be compared to the fear of Holocaust “Revisionismus” from the nation of Jews.

If the Holocaust could be shown to be another (?) “Judenlüge”, then antisemitism would “make sense” again, like it did to those who feared Bolshevism a few decades ago.

There is currently a discussion going on – not least on the Net! – on the consequences of the rise of Fascism and Rasism in Europe. The French Presidential election and the rise of le Pen have brought fears of its revival as a political “sense” again.

Certain Jews in France ( a survivor of the Holocaust, among others) have openly declared that they voted for le Pen, in the face of Muslim attacks on synagogues in France.

Certain Jews in Russia opted for communism in the face of tsarist antisemitism and pogroms during the first decades of the last century.

(But communism was also the harbinger of the working class emancipation and a classless society.)

On the other hand is the Holocaust used as a weapon against le Pen and what he represents. The lessons from the extermination of European Jewry during WW2 are applied to enforce a multicultural antinationalism in Europe.

American isolationalist see the Holocaust as a call for – and mobilisation of – American interventionism in the Muslim Third World, in order to “secure” democracy and the survival of Israel.

The notions of a “Crusade” against Terrorism, and the Muslim “Liberation” of Jerusalem, bring historical comparisons to mind.

Will the truths of the Holocaust – the facts that Medorjurgen lineates above – stand this strain of “application” to the world of today?

Will it be considered at “detail in history” (le Pen)? Or even a “myth” of History?

Here is a link to a column by George Will, in the Jewish World Review :

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/will.html

Will concludes : “Israel holds just one one-thousandth of the world's population, but holds all the hopes for the continuation of the Jewish experience as a portion of the human narrative. Will Israel be more durable than anti-Semitism? Few things have been.”

Will the truth of the Holocaust be enough to mobilize more this “one-thousandth of the world’s population”, when it at the same time is used to mobilize for the multi-cultural acceptance of Muslim immigration from the third World that Israel challenges?

Will begins his column:

“Such is the richness of European culture, even its decadence is creative. Since 1945 it has produced the truly remarkable phenomenon of anti-Semitism without Jews. How does Europe do that?
Now it offers Christian anti-Semitism without the Christianity. An example of this is the recent cartoon in La Stampa -- a liberal Italian newspaper -- depicting the infant Jesus in a manger, menaced by an Israeli tank and saying "Don't tell me they want to kill me again." This reprise of that hardy perennial, Jews as Christ-killers, clearly still strikes a chord in contemporary Italy, where the culture is as secular as a supermarket.”

…”Jews as Christ-killers”…! “That hardy perennial” has apparently survived “biblical revisionism”.

Will the Holocaust be used in the same way in the future? As a “hardy perennial” , able to “strike a chord”? But not necessarily “true”, and protected by legislation?

The contemporary European anti-Semitism is described by Will as “anti-Semitism without Jews”.
“Will Israel be more durable than anti-Semitism? Few things have been.”

Anti-Semitism can exist without both Jews and Israel, apparently.

What difference will a "revision" of the Holocaust make, if it succed? Will it end the existence of Israel, even?

The world will do business as usual?

And the jews will come to Europe again?

[Scott Smith]

Mr Smith,

I can't see how the killing of physically or mentally disabled people has anything to do with a mercy.

Why not? Because the Pope says it's wrong?
The Pope says a lot of things.

[Dan]

Eric, antiSemitism can exist without Jews, but slander takes misinformation to survive. Le Pen never said the Holocaust was a detail, it's just lying, philosemitic journalists that say he did.