GUPVI (USSR POW camp's)

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David Thompson
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#16

Post by David Thompson » 27 Feb 2007, 01:23

Are there any figures for the Japanese POWs?

PeterH
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#17

Post by PeterH » 27 Feb 2007, 07:03

Xserx wrote:
PeterH wrote:Regarding the number of POW-camps: It's the number of the Upravlenija lagerej without branch camps, labor camps etc.?
It is not necessary to confuse two different systems - GUPVI and GULAG. From 1945 these Managements borrowed identical rules in system of hierarchy NKVD. In camps GULAG almost not was a POW's (may be some hundreds). In too time many DP got in GULAG system. As far as I can know, in the given table all types of camps GUPVI are listed. For work from camps selected those who was in a normal physical condition. Per the first years of war (can be up to 1944), the number of these people was not so large - many POW's were in a bad physical condition because of famine and illnesses. After selection them threw on object of construction, where frequently they worked together with GULAG arrested persons.

Best.
Xserx/
I never mixed anything. I just wanted to know what kind of GUPVI-camps are counted cause the highest rate of 267 sounds very low to me.
For March 1946 mobilized and the DP volksdeutche on the citizenship were distributed so:
1. Germany - 38681 (from them 11527 women)
What does that mean? 38.681 POW's + DP's in March '46?
TISO wrote:
HMMMM.
Serbian?????
Quote:
Serbian.........21830.......20354.............1468..........6,2

Does that mean Yugoslav ( Slovenes forcibly mobilised into wehrmacht and Croatian NDH legion)?

Yes, I think, all Yugoslav nation. But not only wermacht. I think, in this number many anti-Tito's soldiers.
Too many assumtions.


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Xserx
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#18

Post by Xserx » 28 Mar 2007, 03:20

PeterH wrote: I never mixed anything. I just wanted to know what kind of GUPVI-camps are counted cause the highest rate of 267 sounds very low to me.
Each camp consist of several branches (sometimes from several tens). The camp was not so much territorial, how many by administrative unit.
For March 1946 mobilized and the DP volksdeutche on the citizenship were distributed so:
1. Germany - 38681 (from them 11527 women)
What does that mean? 38.681 POW's + DP's in March '46?
Not POWs, this etnic Germans under duress mobilized for work in the Soviet Union. Not during March 46, this total. On the data on 1950, total etnic Germans DP was about 270 thousand.
Too many assumtions.
Yes, but I'm really dont know :(

Best.
Xserx/

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Yuri
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#19

Post by Yuri » 21 Apr 2007, 21:36

PeterH wrote:
TISO wrote:
HMMMM.
Serbian?????
Quote:
Serbian.........21830.......20354.............1468..........6,2

Does that mean Yugoslav ( Slovenes forcibly mobilised into wehrmacht and Croatian NDH legion)?

Yes, I think, all Yugoslav nation. But not only wermacht. I think, in this number many anti-Tito's soldiers.
Too many assumtions.
In camps GUPVI there was no anti-Tito's soldiers.
All anti-Tito's soldiers were in the Yugoslavian camps.
In camps GUPVI there were those Yugoslavs who served in a composition of troops of a Wermacht.

Yugoslavs were in structure of divisions of a Wermacht from the very beginning of war, that is since a summer of 1941.
The number of the European slavs who are taking place in a composition of troops of the German Wermacht, is estimated in millions.
According to grasped by Red Army trophy to the document, in second half-year 1943 in structure the Luftwaffe should be enlisted 100,000 Slovaks, Bulgaria and Yugoslavs. From this document it is visible, that in the first half-year at the similar plan was the shortage in 20,000 person. Hence, every year in structure the Luftwaffe acted on service up to 160,000 Slovaks, Bulgaria and Yugoslavs. Proceeding from this, it is possible to calculate with the big share of probability, that for three years of war (since the spring 1941 till the autumn 1944) in structure Luftwaffe have got 480,000 Slovaks, Bulgaria and Yugoslavs.
Unfortunately, in the document there is no breakdown of the common figure 100,000 on nationalities.

Already to autumn of 1941 in structure of the German infantry divisions was the big interest of Poles and Czechs.
To winter of 1942 German divisions already have consisten on 1/3 of soldiers not Germans.
For example, working in December, 1942 on the bottom Chir, ostensibly, silesia 336 ID only half has consisten of Germans, and her the second part has consisten from Poles, Czechs, Frenchmen and Dutchs.

Memorial plate on a cemetery prisoner of war in Ljublono (outskirts of Moscow)

Memorial plate on a cemetery prisoner of war in Ljublono (outskirts of Moscow)

On a cemetery with 1945 for 1949
it is buried:
Germans - 495...... Czechs - 3
Hungarians - 47......Japanese - 2
The Austrians - 17.......Lithuanians - 1
The Frenchmen - 4........Poles - 1
The Romanian - 3..........Yugoslavs - 1

general vieva cemetery prisoner of war in Ljublono
Attachments
Ïîëÿêè è þãîñëàâû.jpg
Lieutenant A.I. Koltunov talks to Poles and Yugoslavs voluntarily given in a captivity. Kalinin front. 1943.
Ïîëÿêè è þãîñëàâû.jpg (210.73 KiB) Viewed 1113 times

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Yuri
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#20

Post by Yuri » 22 Apr 2007, 21:43

THE REPORT OF THE SENIOR ASSISTANT TO THE CHIEF OF THE OPERATIONS SECTION OF THE ARMY HEADQUARTERS OF WESTERN FRONT
To the CHIEF of the OPERATIONS SECTION of the FRONT HEADQUARTERS ABOUT OPERATIONS of the TROOPS of 20-th ARMY DURING the PERIOD
From August, 9 till August, 15, 1941.

To the chief of the Operations section of an army headquarters of Western front
THE REPORT ON THE COURSE OF MILITARY ACTIONS AT THE FRONT 20th ARMY
DURING THE PERIOD WITH 9.8. till 15.8.41.

The general character of actions at the front 20 And during the period with 9 for 15.8.41.
Approach by the main forces Army in a southwest direction with the purpose of an exit on a boundary of railway station Pridneprovskaja, station Dobromino, with simultaneous linkage of the opponent on western coast of the river Dnepr.
These actions are characterized by the following data:
....
CHARACTER of ENEMY ACTIONS AT THE FRONT 20th Army During 9-15.8.41.

The infantry is characterized the greater by a maneuverability, movement at night and on country roads. Settlements do not hold, units leave in a wood. It is marked in units of presence of Finns, Czechs and Poles (updating from stock battalions) .
The artillery proves actively in a combination to mortars and machine-gun fire.
Tanks of active participation in fight at the front did not accept.
The aircraft lately has reduced the activity. Is occupied with more investigation, seldom bombs.

CHARACTER OF STRENGTHENINGS

For the period 9-15.8.41 opponent actively defended, being based mainly on system of mortar and machine-gun fire.
....

The chief of a direction of 20-th army
Colonel Vasiljev
On August, 16, 1941.
TSAMO RF
f. 208, op. 3038ss, d. 24, ll. 171-182. The original.

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Harri
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Re: GUPVI (USSR POW camp's)

#21

Post by Harri » 23 Apr 2007, 12:17

Xserx wrote:Below I bring the data on POW's in the Soviet camps and prisons on 30.11.56. This statistics is based only on given about POW's registered in stationary camps GUPVI, special hospitals, working bataillon and prisons. Certainly, it not absolutely complete statistics, but it gives representation about general scales.

Nation......All..........Repatriated.....Died......Death rate, %
Finland..........2377...........1974...............403........17,0
Well, that represents the official camp figures but it is not the whole truth.

The latest Finnish statistics represented in the book "Rukiver! - Finnish POWs in Soviet Union" (page in Finnish only):
http://www.tyovaenperinne.fi/tyovaentut ... rolov.html
and their internet list gives rather different figures.

The statistics shown in this book and their internet list are under research but between 1939 - 1940 and 1941 - 1944 there were much more than 4.000 Finnish POWs in USSR of which at least 1.300 (unofficial figure, the research situation by the end of 2005, the newest I could find) died or were killed in USSR for sure. During the Winter War there were about 850 - 900 Finnish POWs of whom 838 returned back to Finland.

During the Continuation War the number of Finnish POWs is estimated to have been 3.300 - 3.400 men of whom around 1.000 died in captivity (straight when caught or after interrogation, during transport, in camps etc.). That is Dmitri Frolov's (one of the authors of the book mentioned above) figure of died Finnish soldiers (997). The estimated number of died soldiers is although about 1.400 which is close to the figure achieved in the latest research.

Only about 2.000 Finnish soldiers although returned back to Finland after the war. Thus the actual death rate of Finnish soldiers in Soviet captivity is much higher than the one mentioned above, at least 32% (Frolov's figure) but can rise up to around 38 to 42% (counted from latest known and estimated figures). If the Xserx' figures above are close to the correct we can say that at least about half of the Finnish POWs who died in USSR were killed (or in this case actually murdered). They died somewhere else than in camps.

These figures I showed are not quite accurate because they are still under research although the closing of Russian archives has basically stopped all research now.

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Re: GUPVI (USSR POW camp's)

#22

Post by Art » 27 Apr 2007, 17:36

Harri wrote: Well, that represents the official camp figures but it is not the whole truth.
Don't forget that the figures quoted pertain only to the prisoners registered in (G)UPVI. For example the prisoners who died or escaped on the fronts or en route to camps are not included in this figures.

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#23

Post by Watson » 28 Apr 2007, 09:14

Kriegsgefangenshaft und internierung in der Sowjetunion 1941-1956"
Below I bring the data on POW's in the Soviet camps and prisons on 30.11.56.
So the data on the 3486202 prisoners of war spans the years 1941 to 1956?

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