The Nero decree (Nerobefehl)

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Michael Kenny
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The Nero decree (Nerobefehl)

#1

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Jan 2015, 17:53

[Split from "The Morgenthau plan"]
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:

Hitler and the Nazis magnaminously doing themselves in, circa '44 wouldnt have helped really. Morgenthau Plan Denial isn't that easy actually.. just like the other Denials ain't easy... Neither can the impact of the Morgenthau Plan be swept under the carpet.. Not then.. not now !
The Allies had no need to offer any terms to the Germans in 1944. The war was won and mopping up was all that was left. The option of a Nuclear device to vaporize Hitler cowering in his bunker was on the horizon.
That's the problem when your armed forces are comprehensively defeated. You have no leverage other than pulling the temple down around yourself. A self-inflicted 'Morgenthau Plan' no less. Just sit let the Nazi's do the donkey work for you!.

Perhaps we should be comparing the results of an Allied Morgenthau Plan with the effects of Hitlers orders to destroy German infrastructure. Which was the most destructive?

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Re: The Morgenthau plan

#2

Post by OpanaPointer » 30 Jan 2015, 18:40

One quick point. No atomic bomb available in 1945 was a "bunker buster". The city of Berlin would have been treated rudely, but the Fuehrer Bunker would have survived the air burst that was accepted deployment of the bombs. It would have been a pity that so many German civilians would have died while Hitler rode the atomic attacks out in his rat hole.
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Gorque
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Re: The Morgenthau plan

#3

Post by Gorque » 30 Jan 2015, 19:00

Michael Kenny wrote:Perhaps we should be comparing the results of an Allied Morgenthau Plan with the effects of Hitlers orders to destroy German infrastructure. Which was the most destructive?


Indeed. The 'Nerobefehl' would have been devastating.

Sid Guttridge
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The Morgenthau plan

#4

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Jan 2015, 14:45

Hi Guys,

Michael Kenny raises a very interesting point.

Was the unimplemented Morgenthau Plan worse than the instructions Hitler gave to Speer for a scorched earth policy at the end of the war?

Fortunately for all concerned, not only did Speer not implement Hitler's orders in this regard, but even western Gauleiters didn't!

Cheers,

Sid.

----

(Part of this post can be found at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1925773)

Sid Guttridge
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Re: The Nero decree (Nerobefehl)

#5

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Feb 2015, 21:41

Hitler's actual order was (http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub ... nt_id=1590):

I. Hitler’s Order of March 19, 1945

RE: Destruction Measures within Reich Territory
Our nation’s struggle for existence forces us to utilize all means, even within Reich territory, to weaken the fighting power of our enemy and to prevent further advances. Any opportunity to inflict lasting damage on the striking power of the enemy must be taken advantage of. It is a mistake to believe that undestroyed or only temporarily paralyzed traffic, communications, industrial, and supply installations will be useful to us again after the recapture of lost territories. During his retreat, the enemy will leave behind only scorched earth and will abandon all concern for the population.

I therefore command –

1. All military traffic, communications, industrial and supply installations as well as objects within Reich territory that might be used by the enemy in the continuation of his fight, either now or later, are to be destroyed.

2. It is the responsibility of the military command posts to execute this order to destroy all military objects, including traffic and communications installations.

The Gauleiters and Commissioners for Reich Defense are responsible for destroying the industrial and supply installations, as well as of other objects of valuable; the troops must give the Gauleiters and Commissioners for Reich Defense the assistance they need to carry out this task.

3. This command is to be transmitted to all troop commanders as promptly as possible; orders to the contrary are null and void.

Adolf Hitler
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 02 Feb 2015, 21:48, edited 2 times in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: The Nero decree (Nerobefehl)

#6

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Feb 2015, 21:45

Speer's self-claimed response was (http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/doc ... ge_id=2382):

[ . . . ] When I gave you my memorandum on 18 March, I was convinced that the conclusions which I was drawing from the present situation for the maintenance of our national energy would definitely meet with your approval. For you yourself had already on one occasion determined that, in the event of a lost war, it was the task of the leadership to preserve the nation from a heroic end.

However, that evening you made statements to me from which – unless I have misunderstood you – it is clear and evident that if the war is lost the nation will also be lost. This fate is unavoidable. It is not necessary to show any consideration for the bases, which the people will need for their very primitive further existence; on the contrary, it is better to destroy even these things. For the nation has showed itself to be the weaker one and the future belongs exclusively to the stronger eastern nation. Those remaining after the struggle are in any case the less valuable ones because the good ones have been killed.

On hearing these words I was deeply shocked. And when, a day later, I read your destruction order and shortly afterwards the tough evacuation order, I interpreted these as the first steps in the implementation of these intentions.

Until then, I had believed with all my heart in a successful conclusion to this war. [ . . . ]

However, I can no longer believe in the success of our good cause if, during these decisive months, we simultaneously and systematically destroy the foundations of our national life. That is such a great injustice towards our people that fate could no longer favour us.

[ . . . ]

I therefore beg you not to carry out a step so destructive of the nation.

If you could decide to do this in some form then I would regain the faith and courage with which to continue working with the greatest energy.

You will be able to understand my inner conflict. I cannot work to my full capacity and generate the necessary confidence if, at the same time as I am demanding from the workers their fullest commitment, I am preparing to destroy the foundation of their lives.

[ . . . ]

Mannheim
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Re: The Nero decree (Nerobefehl)

#7

Post by Mannheim » 20 Apr 2018, 02:34

Does anyone have a copy of the actual Nero decree - not the text, not a translation - that they could post? The subject came up in a discussion two days ago and I cannot find a copy on the Internet (not that I'm a great researcher). The document also raises a question or two: Speer claims to have overridden it but the final sentence - "This command is to be transmitted to all troop commanders as promptly as possible; orders to the contrary are null and void" - seems to make that claim unlikely.
Is he suggesting he countermanded it before it went out? Is there another source for the text or is Speer the only one?
Any input appreciated but I would especially like to see the original document if possible.
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Gorque
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Re: The Nero decree (Nerobefehl)

#8

Post by Gorque » 20 Apr 2018, 13:59


Mannheim
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Re: The Nero decree (Nerobefehl)

#9

Post by Mannheim » 20 Apr 2018, 23:42

Thanks, Gorque, but that's still just a copy of the text. I'm interested to see if the decree actually went out or did Speer interdict it so no officers ever saw it. I'm assuming it would have gone out as a teletype. My interest stems from a friendly discussion/argument down the pub and I thought I'd put my mate in his place by showing him a copy of the actual document. When I couldn't find one I started to wonder if the Nero Decree wasn't just Speer bignoting himself again and if the Nero Decree should be included in the I-Tried-To-Get-Poison-Gas-Into-Bunker file.
Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

Mannheim
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Re: The Nero decree (Nerobefehl)

#10

Post by Mannheim » 21 Apr 2018, 06:32

All good. I found a copy of the original. I'd still like to know how Speer interdicted this order if it went out "to all troop commanders as promptly as possible; orders to the contrary are null and void."
Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

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Re: The Nero decree (Nerobefehl)

#11

Post by GregSingh » 21 Apr 2018, 12:10

I am pretty sure Hitler's order from 19th of March went out.

I have a copy of Speer's letter with Hitler's additions/interpretations (to the 19th of March order) from 30th of March. Three pages of boring German. if someone wants to translate I can attach it later.

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Gorque
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Re: The Nero decree (Nerobefehl)

#12

Post by Gorque » 23 Apr 2018, 14:51

Mannheim wrote:All good. I found a copy of the original. I'd still like to know how Speer interdicted this order if it went out "to all troop commanders as promptly as possible; orders to the contrary are null and void."
Hi Mannheim:

Sorry about my misunderstanding. :oops:

Would you mind sharing the copy of the original?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: The Nero decree (Nerobefehl)

#13

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Apr 2018, 18:35

Hi Guys,

From memory, the orders were sent to the Gauleiters and I think Speer says in his memoirs that he intervened directly with them.

Try: https://archive.org/stream/Inside_the_T ... r_djvu.txt

Cheers,

Sid.

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