Otto Grudzinski

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
ansata1976
Member
Posts: 5129
Joined: 18 Jan 2009, 19:51
Location: At home

Otto Grudzinski

#1

Post by ansata1976 » 06 Apr 2015, 21:20

I am interested in more information about the fate and crimes of:

Otto Grudzinski
member Selbstschutz Tomaszow
Trial Lodz 1946
death sentence

Was he executed? When was he born?

ansata1976
Member
Posts: 5129
Joined: 18 Jan 2009, 19:51
Location: At home

Re: Otto Grudzinski

#2

Post by ansata1976 » 10 Apr 2016, 21:10

Otto Karl Grudziński born 12.10.1907 in Tomaszów Mazowiecki


User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#3

Post by wm » 13 Apr 2016, 00:15

Unless it's the same name coincidence, 20 year old Otto Grudziński is the second firefighter from the left, the middle row:
Otto Grudzinski.jpg
Otto Grudzinski.jpg (36.38 KiB) Viewed 1060 times

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#4

Post by history1 » 14 Apr 2016, 08:53

ansata1976 wrote:I am interested in more information about the fate and crimes of:

Otto Grudzinski
member Selbstschutz Tomaszow
Trial Lodz 1946
death sentence

Was he executed? When was he born?
Ansata1976 you´re continuos calling people "war criminals" even without the knowledge what their crime was or any other proof. Be aware that defamation is a crime! See Austrian penal code § 111 and §297, punished with 1 to 5 years prison.
Note that Austrian courts are convicting every now and again people for postings on social media websites (mostly Facebook). In the last month 9 persons were put to trial. Bear in mind also that the forums operator can be held liable for your posts! But he is also bound to help by criminal proceedings against forum members in the case of persecution.


PS.: I posted on another website informations about a court trial respective a dog breeder. The "lady" called it a lie and requested to remove my post (what was only truth). The website operator contacted me and asked if I still stand to my post which I affirmed. Result: Lawsuit against the organisation who´s running the website and a trial with the result that she lost the case because I also named two other witnesses who confirmed my informations. Hence, consider your wording in future, please.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#5

Post by wm » 14 Apr 2016, 11:11

Those people are war criminals (as the section III of Hague V from 1907 defines them) because they were declared as such by legitimate courts of law.
Those courts weren't perfect but still nothing like the Soviets tribunals full of ignorant apparatchiks. The judges were mostly the pre-war high-standard judges, and the pre-war penal code was used, regarded as one of the most progressive in the world.

So many death penalties might seem excessive but it the case of war crimes it had been regarded for a long time that the law needs to be brutal as a warning to future wannabe war-criminals.

Still congratulations for standing up to frivolous litigation bullies. :)

ansata1976
Member
Posts: 5129
Joined: 18 Jan 2009, 19:51
Location: At home

Re: Otto Grudzinski

#6

Post by ansata1976 » 14 Apr 2016, 13:17

I repeated only the information I found in my source:

http://bc.wbp.lodz.pl/dlibra/publication/58279?tab=1 nr 206 page 5

Grudzinski was sentenced to death. I think there was a good reason to sentence him. When I made translation mistakes I am very sorry.

ansata1976
Member
Posts: 5129
Joined: 18 Jan 2009, 19:51
Location: At home

Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#7

Post by ansata1976 » 14 Apr 2016, 13:26

Otto Grudzinski.pdf
Source Dziennik Łódzki. 1946-07-29 R. 2 nr 206 - 27/29
(421.98 KiB) Downloaded 62 times

ansata1976
Member
Posts: 5129
Joined: 18 Jan 2009, 19:51
Location: At home

Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#8

Post by ansata1976 » 14 Apr 2016, 13:45

Otto Grudzinski
12.10.1907 in Tomaszów Mazowiecki
member Selbstschutz Tomaszow
Trial Lodz 1946
death sentence

executed???

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#9

Post by wm » 14 Apr 2016, 14:32

Selbstschutz + 1946 + death sentence means war crime, it can't be anything else.

In fact he was, using the language of the 1944 decree called sierpniówka he was a Polish traitor, and a hitlerite war-time criminal.

He was a Polish German firefighter, as many of his colleagues in the picture above (although he was treated as a Pole during the trial). A member of Selbstschutz, took active part in roundups of Poles, mistreated the Jewish population during the establishment of the Litzmannstadt ghetto, mistreated Poles.
Each and every of these acts warranted at least a 3-year prison, up to death sentence. Mistreatment of the Jewish population could have been easily upgraded to mandatory death sentence ( a race or religious hate crime).
But it seems he specifically got it for bragging he personally sent a Pole to Auschwitz where he perished (mandatory death sentence).

ansata1976
Member
Posts: 5129
Joined: 18 Jan 2009, 19:51
Location: At home

Re: Otto Grudzinski

#10

Post by ansata1976 » 14 Apr 2016, 16:04

Was the sentence carried out? Do you know the date?
Last edited by ansata1976 on 14 Apr 2016, 20:20, edited 1 time in total.

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#11

Post by history1 » 14 Apr 2016, 19:13

wm wrote:Those people are war criminals (as the section III of Hague V from 1907 defines them) because they were declared as such by legitimate courts of law.
[...]
ansata 1976 wrote:" I´m interested on more information [...] in the crimes of [...] Otto Grudzinski"

This means that ansata1976 even don´t know which crimes he commited but called Grudzinski a war criminal without any evidence!
BTW, wm, your claim is incorrect! Since when is being a member of rounding up teams, in this case of Jews and Poles, a war crime? His proud statement towards the fire brigade commander, that he´s responsible for the transfer of Anton Komar into KL Auschwitz is not a war crime either!
Fazit: Being convicted to death doesn´t mean that the man was convicted for war crimes nor that he´s a war criminal!

The excuse/justification of ansata1976
I repeated only the information I found in my source
is laughable, as there is NOWHERE the word "war criminal" in the whole article mentioned!
And no, ansata1976, you don´t repeated only what you read in the newspaper as you did NOT quote it. Just now you presented you source, a whole week later. Look out for "zbrodniarz wojenny = war criminal", in the text, ansata1976. And if you´re not sure ask me what´s the content of the text. I´m here to help!

BTW, the forum mods and admins are informed about this commited crime, and so are they also liable if they do not intervene/stop it.
Or do they risk a lead action? I doubt that would be good publicity for the forum.

ansata1976
Member
Posts: 5129
Joined: 18 Jan 2009, 19:51
Location: At home

Re: Otto Grudzinski

#12

Post by ansata1976 » 14 Apr 2016, 20:28

Do not worry. I do not post here again. I use other sources to get the info I need.

ansata1976
Member
Posts: 5129
Joined: 18 Jan 2009, 19:51
Location: At home

Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#13

Post by ansata1976 » 14 Apr 2016, 21:37

Thank you for your help and advice history1

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#14

Post by wm » 14 Apr 2016, 21:42

history1 wrote: is laughable, as there is NOWHERE the word "war criminal" in the whole article mentioned!
You couldn't be more mistaken. People like Grudziński were always tried under the Sierpniówka decree. Always.
His sentence means we was a war criminal - more precisely a hitlerite war-time criminal. Although it's possible he was sentenced as a traitor, or both.

Ansata actually is very skilfull in his search for any info about those trials in old Polish newspapers.
Although no deep knowledge is required, a few words usually, it's as easy as : Selbstschutz + 1946 + death sentence = the Sierpniówka decree = war criminal.

history1 wrote:BTW, wm, your claim is incorrect! Since when is being a member of rounding up teams, in this case of Jews and Poles, a war crime?
Yes it is. He was an active member, he was beating up and torturing civilians.
No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible.
Family honour and rights, the lives of persons, and private property, as well as religious convictions and practice, must be respected.
Laws of War; Hague IV, Section III.
You might think that beating up someone is nothing - maybe a suspended sentence of a few months in prison. Well, in war for a member of the occupation force it was up the wall. And the occupied nation would be your judge, jury and executioner.
In war there was no subtlety, and wasn't needed.

history1 wrote:His proud statement towards the fire brigade commander, that he´s responsible for the transfer of Anton Komar into KL Auschwitz is not a war crime either!
It's the article 1, sub-article 2 of the Sierpniówka decree - mandatory death sentence. An eye for an eye.

ansata1976 wrote:Thank you for your help and advice history1
One might think that thanks to dealing with so many war criminals and death sentences you have grown an elephant's thick skin by now :)

User avatar
Annelie
Member
Posts: 5053
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 03:45
Location: North America

Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#15

Post by Annelie » 14 Apr 2016, 23:33

history1
people "war criminals" even without the knowledge what their crime was or any other proof. Be aware that defamation is a crime! See Austrian penal code § 111 and §297, punished with 1 to 5 years prison.
Note that Austrian courts are convicting every now and again people for postings on social media websites (mostly Facebook). In the last month 9 persons were put to trial. Bear in mind also that the forums operator can be held liable for your posts! But he is also bound to help by criminal proceedings against forum members in the case of persecution.
Does that apply to only Austria or Europe?
What is said on North American Facebook is sometimes astounding to read.

There is a button to report an inappropriate post which I have used once but it seems moderators on social media
are very lax. You can almost say anything. ..aware of course not on
Axis Forum (thank goodness)

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”