Otto Grudzinski

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history1
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Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#16

Post by history1 » 15 Apr 2016, 10:00

wm wrote:
history1 wrote: is laughable, as there is NOWHERE the word "war criminal" in the whole article mentioned!
You couldn't be more mistaken. People like Grudziński were always tried under the Sierpniówka decree. Always.
His sentence means we was a war criminal - more precisely a hitlerite war-time criminal. Although it's possible he was sentenced as a traitor, or both.
[...]
wm, your Polish "August 1944 degree" is of NO importance. It´s even not mentioned in the article. So your reference to it is nothing than your personal assumption/assertion without any proof.
I request you point out which articles of the Hague and Geneva Conventions he violated! And do not forget to post your source!
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague04.asp
https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf ... es1949.xsp
wm, do you believe everything what´s written in newspapers or only when it´s against assumed war criminals belonging to the German minority in Poland? We know how those post war trials with soviet influx looked like, revenge is what they wanted at all costs, nothing less.

history1
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Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#17

Post by history1 » 15 Apr 2016, 10:45

Annelie wrote:history1
[...] Does that apply to only Austria or Europe?
What is said on North American Facebook is sometimes astounding to read.
Not only in Austria but in Europe generally, AFAIK. Sure in Germany, Switherland, the UK, Netherland, etc..
Read:
http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/20 ... -comments/
https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/ ... 110926.pdf
https://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 8272,d.d24
I think here´s also some info (didn´t read the whole text):
http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2015/ ... ection-law

Here are examples of the trials I mentioned above (convictions for postings on Facebook):
15.1.2016
Crime: A posting on the social media platform Facebook with the glorification of Hitler (Quote:" I miss this man who left us in 1945 "End of quote) and a anti -muslim posting in refer to a refugee home ( Quote:" Away with this rabble!" End of quote)
Sentence: 10 month imprisonment + 4500€ ( = 5092 US-$) fine
Source: http://vorarlberg.orf.at/news/stories/2752550/

24.2.2016
Crime: Two uploads on Facebook by a 23 year old Afghan. One with a skull and crossed bones captioned "Keep calm and f..k Israel" the other of anti jewish content with a Hitler photo captioned "I could have killed all Jews, I spared a few that you can see the reason later why I murdered them"
Sentence: 12 month imprisonment + 720€ fine
Source: http://www.krone.at/Digital/Ein_Jahr_be ... ory-497619
But there is also this, not connected to postings on websites:
16.3.2016
Crime: Exclaiming Nazi parols and executing the Nazi - salute from 5 people
Sentence: from 5-22 month imprisonment + 480€ fine
Source: http://diepresse.com/home/panorama/oest ... -in-Krems-
You see, our courts don´t hesitate to react and to send you in jail for two sentences.
Annelie wrote: There is a button to report an inappropriate post which I have used once but it seems moderators on social media are very lax. You can almost say anything. ..aware of course not on Axis Forum (thank goodness)
Incorrect, reported the crime and David Thompson did nothing. Even while it´s a violation of the forum rules.


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wm
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Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#18

Post by wm » 15 Apr 2016, 13:37

history1 wrote:wm, do you believe everything what´s written in newspapers or only when it´s against assumed war criminals belonging to the German minority in Poland? We know how those post war trials with soviet influx looked like, revenge is what they wanted at all costs, nothing less.
I didn't say he was a war criminal, only that he was sentenced as such. This is good enough to write that he was anyway.

history1 wrote:wm, your Polish "August 1944 degree" is of NO importance. It´s even not mentioned in the article. So your reference to it is nothing than your personal assumption/assertion without any proof.
It is, because it concerned itself with Polish traitors and hitlerite criminals committing their crimes during the WW2, in short war criminals.
People who did stupid things during occupation - Poles, Germans, and their allies were tried under that decree. Always. And for a member of the occupation forces it was always always. The Polish penal code wouldn't allow to sentence Mr Grudziński to death.

history1 wrote:I request you point out which articles of the Hague and Geneva Conventions he violated! And do not forget to post your source!
I posted it already, the parts with "must be respected", "No general penalty" from Hague IV.
You seem not to be aware that crimes committed during war or during occupation make you a war criminal. You didn't have to gas people by millions, it was sufficient to mistreat a few.

And the fact is the Laws of War granted the injured party the right to be the judge and the executioner. Poland had every right to send Mr Grudziński to prison for a few months, or to execute him. It made no difference, it was their decision.
The moral is don't do stupid things during war, if you want to beat up people wait till the end of war and you'll be fine.

You shouldn't assume I didn't know anything on this subject, actually I've read a lot about it, and things written by people who took part in those Peace Conventions in Hague.

history1 wrote:Here are examples of the trials I mentioned above (convictions for postings on Facebook):
The examples you've posted will result in losing by Austria the free country status granted by the Reporters without Borders organization. As it happened to UK (mostly free now) and the US (49 place behind Burkina Faso).

You think that as the so called "good guys" you have more rights that the others, and you can judge and sentence people according to your ideology.

In fact you are enablers for those who may come later - the "bad guys", people who will call themselves the "good guys" too and will use the today established rules to do their own dirty tricks - and then it will not be fun at all.

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Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#19

Post by George_W » 16 Apr 2016, 17:05

history1 wrote:
wm wrote:
history1 wrote:We know how those post war trials with soviet influx looked like, revenge is what they wanted at all costs, nothing less.
And what is your source to claim that? For example, from all 660 members of staff KL Auschwitz who were extradited to Poland after the war and stood trial only 32 were sentenced to death. The most of them received sentence between 2 and 6 years in prison (from that group 203 men gets 2 years).

Are you calling this a revenge?

George

history1
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Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#20

Post by history1 » 16 Apr 2016, 17:22

George_W wrote:[...] And what is your source to claim that?
My source for that is common knowledge. I guess the humanship nowaday<s knows hwo stalinistic trials looked like: allready convicted to death by hanging before only a single word was spoken.
George_W wrote: For example, from all 660 members of staff KL Auschwitz who were extradited to Poland after the war and stood trial only 32 were sentenced to death. The most of them received sentence between 2 and 6 years in prison (from that group 203 men gets 2 years).
Are you calling this a revenge?
George
Sure, they were mostly convicted because serving in Auschwitz and belonging to the SS, not because of commited crimes. That´s mere revenge in my eyes! That´s what the Polish governement and institutions is requesting even nowadays and is hiding facts on social media websites, though they knew them. Eg. the SS - medic Hubert Zafke, serving in the SS lazarett in Auschwitz I, Solahütte, and a subcamp for a few weeks. And though some people ask to convict him for complicity in murder in a few 1000 cases.

BTW, the Auschwitz trial isn´t the matter here.

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Re: war criminal Otto Grudzinski

#21

Post by George_W » 16 Apr 2016, 18:05

history1 wrote:
George_W wrote:[...]BTW, the Auschwitz trial isn´t the matter here.
As well as system of prosecution Nazi war criminals in Poland is not the subject of the topic.

I use this example to illustrate that suspected of Nazi war crimes where sentenced not only to death "before only a single word was spoken" although Poland was under Soviet influence at that time.

Regarding Zafke, i think that he was already tried once in Poland, was sentenced to 4 years and there is no reason to tried him again. Personally i doubt that he participated in killing 1000 inmates.

George
Last edited by George_W on 16 Apr 2016, 18:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Otto Grudzinski

#22

Post by ansata1976 » 16 Apr 2016, 18:09

I asked only to know more about the fate of Otto Grudzinski. This is the topic!!!! and not general questions about the fairness of war crime trials. My research cost me a lot of time and energy and when I make mistakes I am glad when an other forum member can help and correct me.

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Annelie
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Re: Otto Grudzinski

#23

Post by Annelie » 16 Apr 2016, 22:02

Was this not answered


dylan » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:36 am

Oskar Gustaw Grudzinski geb 8/10/1900 Member Hilfspolizei in Tomaszow Mzowiecki
Trial 1/10/1945 ; Death sentence wegen Festnahmen, Razzien, Auslieferung de Polen im Lager.
Executed 13/12/1945.

Dylan.


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wm
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Re: Otto Grudzinski

#24

Post by wm » 16 Apr 2016, 22:44

It's a different and older Grudzinski.
In the picture above there is another - Alfred; second row, extreme left. Let's hope they didn't execute him too...

The problem is these people were nobodies who were unexpectedly given real power during the occupation and as usual, many of them got corrupted by it.
Because there were nobodies their sentences were mentioned in the press and nothing else, including their executions. Only an execution of a big fish deserved to be noted.

But it's important this information is published on internet, even in Poland people know almost nothing about those trials and the sheer number of them.

history1 wrote:
George_W wrote:Sure, they were mostly convicted because serving in Auschwitz and belonging to the SS, not because of commited crimes.
Art.4 $1 of the decree - membership in a criminal organization, at least a 3-year prison, up to death sentence.
Last edited by wm on 16 Apr 2016, 22:54, edited 1 time in total.

ansata1976
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Re: Otto Grudzinski

#25

Post by ansata1976 » 16 Apr 2016, 22:49

yeas this man:
Otto Karl Grudzinski
12.10.1907 in Tomaszów Mazowiecki
member Selbstschutz Tomaszow
Trial Lodz 1946
death sentence

is different to:

Oskar Gustav Grudzinski
08.10.1900
Hilfspolizei in Tomaszow Mazowiecki
executed 13.12.1945

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Annelie
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Re: Otto Grudzinski

#26

Post by Annelie » 16 Apr 2016, 23:13

Well, that settles that question for now.

Have you written or inquired to National Archives?

Puck
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Re: Otto Grudzinski

#27

Post by Puck » 20 Sep 2020, 13:04

from Arolsen Archive
grudzinkski, otto.jpg
Regards Puck

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