Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
uberjude
Member
Posts: 678
Joined: 19 Oct 2009 02:51

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by uberjude » 08 Jun 2016 22:05

Oh, and on Livingstone, it is just as fair to say "Hitler supported Bolshevism" because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Somehow, I think Livingstone would demur.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 6669
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by wm » 19 Jun 2016 20:57

The Nazi Germany was a legitimate country, recognized by everybody and admired by many. Outwardly It was a state as many others. Nothing wrong with a (forced) cooperation with such a country. And actually till the Kristallnacht the life of German Jews wasn't that bad.
uberjude wrote:As for the notion of "good" vs. "bad" Zionists, judging by the Revisionists' willingness to work with elements in the Polish gov't and military who were as eager to see Jews leave Poland as the Nazis were to see Jews leave Germany,
It is a rather strange statement that the Poles were as eager as the Nazis. Actually a Polish pro-government organization, and later the government itself made a few (mainly pre-elections) statements that in a long term many the Polish Jews were to expected to emigrate to Palestine, but it was spurred by the (secret) talks with Jabotinsky who promised to "evacuate" all Polish Jews - not only the Jewish elites but the "Jewish rabble" (żydowskie bydło) too.
uberjude wrote:I have no doubt that if they'd been in a position to work with Nazis for the same end, they would have gladly taken it (and as you point out, the Lehi offered that and more). Nor should this be surprising; In Der Judenstaat, Herzl discusses the notion that anti-semites would be supporters of Zionism, and he was quite right up to a point.
That was prophetic, anti-semites generally supported Zionism.
uberjude wrote:As for WM's comments, I don't think Weizmann would be anybody's example of a socialist ideologue, or even a socialist at all.
A progressive nationalist? :)
uberjude wrote:I also don't know that his desire to expel Arabs from Palestine reflected a sense that they didn't deserve "such a nice place." Indeed, at the time, part of his argument was that Palestine was not such a nice place, precisely because, in his view, the Arabs had insufficiently developed it.
The Arab is often called the son of the desert. It would be truer to call him the father of the desert. His laziness and primitivism turn a flourishing garden into a desert. Weizmann to Maisky in 1941. A nice place destroyed by the Arab.
uberjude wrote:Rather, he wanted to move them out both to provide room for Jews and to eliminate a danger to the Zionist project. Not terribly dissimilar to what occurred in your neighborhood after WW2.
Not dissimilar but it was seen as some kind of punishment and compensation for the war, the Arabs weren't guilty of anything.
uberjude wrote:Speaking of which, do you (or any other readers) know any good sources on the schemes to resettle Polish Jews in the formerly German territories? Thanks.
I'm afraid mostly in Polish or Yiddish.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23592
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by David Thompson » 20 Jun 2016 00:02

Let's get back on topic.

User avatar
Sergey Romanov
Member
Posts: 1984
Joined: 28 Dec 2003 01:52
Location: World

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by Sergey Romanov » 09 Sep 2016 15:26

Here is one of the key documents on the Nazi attitude toward Zionism. You be the judge.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eic ... 18-04.html

Hagen's report of 4.11.37.
Promotion of the Emigration of Jews from Germany. To further promote the emigration of Jews from Germany, the Jew Polkes proposed to make possible the emigration of 50,000 Jews per year with 1,000 Sterling per head, by means of an increase in the transfer of goods through Paltreu (Palaestina Treuhandstelle der Juden in Deutschland)* {*The German Office of the Ha'avara Company for the transfer of Jewish property from Nazi Germany to Palestine.} and "Nemico" (Near and Middle East Corporation). The goods would be sold in Palestine, Iraq, Turkey and in Peria. Immigration to Palestine would in this case be possible without the special consent of the English Mandatory government since Jews with 1,000 Sterling are considered as so- called capitalists."
"Opinion This plan must be rejected by us for two reasons: (a) It is not our aim to have Jewish capital transferred, but rather, in the first place, to induce Jews without means to emigrate. Second, the aforementioned emigration of 50,000 Jews annually would in the main strengthen Judaism in Palestine, and considering that according to the policy of the Reich the establishment of an independent state of the Jews in Palestine should be prevented, this plan cannot be a subject for discussion.

(b) An Increase in the transfer of goods to the Near and Middle East would mean that these countries would be lost to the German Reich as 'countries supplying foreign currency.'

Furthermore this would strengthen the 'Ha'avara system' (Jewish companies for the transfer of capital of Jews emigrating from Germany), which was nurtured by the Reich Economics Ministry and to which we are opposed."

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8917
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by michael mills » 10 Sep 2016 02:35

That document shows Hagen's attitude, which reflects that of the German Foreign Ministry.

However, it was not Hitler's attitude, since in 1938 he decided that the emigration of German Jews to Palestine should continue to be assisted by such means as the Ha'avara Scheme. For him, the real present advantage of getting Jews out of Germany was greater than the possible future danger of a Jewish state in Palestine.

For that reason, Hitler rejected the requests from the German Foreign Office to stop supporting Jewish immigration to Palestine.

The fact remains that Jewish emigration from Germany, whether to Palestine or anywhere else, was not officially banned until October 1941.

Of course National Socialist Germany did not officially support Zionism, in the sense of th3e creation of a Jewish State, but it did cooperate with the World Zionist Organisation for the purpose of facilitating the emigration of Jews from Germany. It was essentially a symbiotic relationship, a convergence of interests, rather than one based on ideological agreement.

User avatar
Sergey Romanov
Member
Posts: 1984
Joined: 28 Dec 2003 01:52
Location: World

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by Sergey Romanov » 10 Sep 2016 09:12

michael mills wrote:That document shows Hagen's attitude, which reflects that of the German Foreign Ministry.
Actually he refers to a specific policy.

"according to the policy of the Reich the establishment of an independent state of the Jews in Palestine should be prevented"

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8917
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by michael mills » 10 Sep 2016 10:34

Yes, it was not German Government policy to support the establishment of a Jewish State in Palestine.

Nevertheless, the German Government, in particular the police agencies under Heydrich, did support the migration of Jews to Palestine because that was a way of achieving the essential aim of making Germany "Jew-free" through emigration of all Jews from Germany.

Hitler also supported the emigration of German Jews to Palestine before the outbreak of war, since he considered that the British rulers of that country would keep the Jewish settlers under control and prevent their gaining independence. Bear in mind that prior to the outbreak of war, Hitler was a strong supporter of the British Empire, and believed that the British would want to retain Palestine as part of their control of the Middle East and the route to India.

Bear in mind also that Jewish settlement in Palestine under British rule provided the model for the proposed Jewish settlement in Madagascar under German rule.

It was only after the outbreak of war that Hitler changed his policy toward the British Empire and supported the Italian conquest of the British possessions in the Middle East, including Palestine (it was the Italian air force that bombed Tel Aviv).

User avatar
Sergey Romanov
Member
Posts: 1984
Joined: 28 Dec 2003 01:52
Location: World

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by Sergey Romanov » 10 Sep 2016 11:00

Since Zionism is an ideology we should look at the ideological plane. Ideologically the Nazis were against establishing a Jewish state in Palestine, they were anti-Zionists by definition. As simple as that.

Whether or not some measures taken by the Nazis helped Zionism directly or indirectly is another matter entirely.

uberjude
Member
Posts: 678
Joined: 19 Oct 2009 02:51

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by uberjude » 14 Nov 2016 20:12

Michael said it well: Hitler also supported the emigration of German Jews to Palestine before the outbreak of war, since he considered that the British rulers of that country would keep the Jewish settlers under control and prevent their gaining independence.

The Nazis were not "pro-Zionisst." they were "pro-getting Jews out of Germany, if not Europe entirely. I think it fair to say that if the United States or Brazil or Australia had said "we'll take the Jews," or if the French had said "Send them all to Madagascar," Hitler, or "the Nazis" would not have said "I'm sorry, we are pro-zionist, and we must not abandon Zion, lest our right hand forget its cunning."

One might as well argue that when Israel expelled the Arab populations of Ramle-Lydda, they were being "Pro-Jordanian."

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8917
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by michael mills » 19 Nov 2016 07:46

Hitler agreed with certain tenets of Zionist ideology:

1. That the Jews were a single people distinct from the peoples among whom they lived, not just a religious community, ie Jews living in Germany were not Germans professing a particular religion, but rather members of a different people.

2. Jews living in Germany and other European countries should leave those countries and settle in Palestine, the original Jewish homeland.

Of course Hitler was opposed to the creation of an independent Jewish State, and indeed believed that Jews were congenitally incapable of creating such a state, being in his view a "parasite" people. He had nothing against Jews settling en masse in Palestine, since he believed that if Jews were concentrated in a particular area by themselves they would spend their time preying on each other, "tearing each other like rats" as he so brutally put it.

MagnusStultus
Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 09 Jun 2015 07:40
Location: United States

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by MagnusStultus » 19 Nov 2016 18:30

michael mills wrote:Hitler agreed with certain tenets of Zionist ideology:

1. That the Jews were a single people distinct from the peoples among whom they lived, not just a religious community, ie Jews living in Germany were not Germans professing a particular religion, but rather members of a different people.

2. Jews living in Germany and other European countries should leave those countries and settle in Palestine, the original Jewish homeland.

Of course Hitler was opposed to the creation of an independent Jewish State, and indeed believed that Jews were congenitally incapable of creating such a state, being in his view a "parasite" people. He had nothing against Jews settling en masse in Palestine, since he believed that if Jews were concentrated in a particular area by themselves they would spend their time preying on each other, "tearing each other like rats" as he so brutally put it.
uberjude wrote:Michael said it well: Hitler also supported the emigration of German Jews to Palestine before the outbreak of war, since he considered that the British rulers of that country would keep the Jewish settlers under control and prevent their gaining independence.

The Nazis were not "pro-Zionisst." they were "pro-getting Jews out of Germany, if not Europe entirely. I think it fair to say that if the United States or Brazil or Australia had said "we'll take the Jews," or if the French had said "Send them all to Madagascar," Hitler, or "the Nazis" would not have said "I'm sorry, we are pro-zionist, and we must not abandon Zion, lest our right hand forget its cunning."

One might as well argue that when Israel expelled the Arab populations of Ramle-Lydda, they were being "Pro-Jordanian."
You two made claims but they are 0% true.

Here is the definition of zionism

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Zionism

This thread is about people who don't like Jews trying to equate the Jews with the worst evil of the 20th century.

You guys either have no reading comprehension or are extremely ignorant; it isn't personal attack you could have spared claiming Hitler was a zionist with a 1st grade education (all that is needed to understand merriam-webster).

Lets also talk about how Chiang Kai-Shek backed Japanese militarism, or how Stalin backed operation Barbarossa or how FDR supported Lindbergh, or how Winston Churchill backed Lord Halifax for PM while going into insane baseless fantasies.

Ken Livingstone (who I assume you "gentleman" back and who's politics you support) ran up against every single historical publication and historian saying he was dead wrong.

With the intense anti-semitism of Europe up to and including modern attempts to declare the Jews are the new Nazis is it any wonder Jews wanted to get out?

uberjude
Member
Posts: 678
Joined: 19 Oct 2009 02:51

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by uberjude » 20 Nov 2016 02:47

Michael, you wrote:
Hitler agreed with certain tenets of Zionist ideology:

1. That the Jews were a single people distinct from the peoples among whom they lived, not just a religious community, ie Jews living in Germany were not Germans professing a particular religion, but rather members of a different people.

2. Jews living in Germany and other European countries should leave those countries and settle in Palestine, the original Jewish homeland.
Certainly, Hitler believed that Jews were a distinct race. This hardly makes him "pro-Zionist," any more than it made him "pro-Harvard anthropology department."

As for #2, he most certainly did not believe that Jews living in Europe "should leave those countries and settle in Palestine." He believed that they should leave those countries and settle somewhere else.

Or do you have some evidence to suggest that Hitler had a preference for Palestine over some other place? The Haavara Agreement hardly counts, since there was no other group negotiating for the emigration of German Jewry to some other place to which it can be compared.

So do you have any evidence to support the claim that "Hitler agreed that Jews living in Germany and other european countries should leave those countries and settle in Palestine," as opposed to simply leaving Europe and settling somewhere else in the world. Thanks.



And Magnus, I'm not sure what you think you read into my post, but it clearly wasn't what I intended. The Nazis most definitely worked with the Zionists to facilitate emigration to Palestine in the '30's. That's not evidence of Nazi's being "pro-Zionist;" all it means is that, as Herzl predicted, antisemites in Europe would see a mutual interest with the Zionists in facilitating emigration from Europe. What's noteworthy about that, it should be recalled, is that when Herzl wrote that in Der Judenstaat, he wasn't talking about emigration to Palestine, but simply to the "Jews' State," where ever that would be.

So in this sense, Michael, we could say that Hitler in 1935 certainly had this much in common with Herzl in 1895--both wanted the Jews out of Europe, and in any land in which such an emigration could be most easily facilitated. During a period in the 1930's, that happened to be Palestine, but I don't think at any point Hitler believed they should go there as opposed to any other place that might have taken them.

But again, if you have evidence to the contrary, I am always happy to consider it.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8917
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by michael mills » 20 Nov 2016 03:02

I meant that Hitler agreed with that part of the Zionist tenet that called for Jews to leave Europe.

Of course he did not care where the Jews went, but the Zionist call for the Jews to leave Europe and settle in Palestine was consistent with Hitler's desire (and that of other anti-Semites, such as those in Poland) that Germany should become "Jew-free".

That is the reason why he agreed to Heydrich's cooperating with the Zionist Organisation to facilitate Jewish emigration to Palestine. It is not because Hitler agreed with the idea of founding a Jewish State there. It was simply because Palestine was a place to which German Jews could emigrate, and because there existed a political organisation that was committed to organising that emigration.

uberjude
Member
Posts: 678
Joined: 19 Oct 2009 02:51

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by uberjude » 20 Nov 2016 03:08

Thanks for the clarification.

MagnusStultus
Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 09 Jun 2015 07:40
Location: United States

Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by MagnusStultus » 21 Nov 2016 21:04

uberjude wrote:Michael, you wrote:
Hitler agreed with certain tenets of Zionist ideology:

1. That the Jews were a single people distinct from the peoples among whom they lived, not just a religious community, ie Jews living in Germany were not Germans professing a particular religion, but rather members of a different people.

2. Jews living in Germany and other European countries should leave those countries and settle in Palestine, the original Jewish homeland.
Certainly, Hitler believed that Jews were a distinct race. This hardly makes him "pro-Zionist," any more than it made him "pro-Harvard anthropology department."

As for #2, he most certainly did not believe that Jews living in Europe "should leave those countries and settle in Palestine." He believed that they should leave those countries and settle somewhere else.

Or do you have some evidence to suggest that Hitler had a preference for Palestine over some other place? The Haavara Agreement hardly counts, since there was no other group negotiating for the emigration of German Jewry to some other place to which it can be compared.

So do you have any evidence to support the claim that "Hitler agreed that Jews living in Germany and other european countries should leave those countries and settle in Palestine," as opposed to simply leaving Europe and settling somewhere else in the world. Thanks.



And Magnus, I'm not sure what you think you read into my post, but it clearly wasn't what I intended. The Nazis most definitely worked with the Zionists to facilitate emigration to Palestine in the '30's. That's not evidence of Nazi's being "pro-Zionist;" all it means is that, as Herzl predicted, antisemites in Europe would see a mutual interest with the Zionists in facilitating emigration from Europe. What's noteworthy about that, it should be recalled, is that when Herzl wrote that in Der Judenstaat, he wasn't talking about emigration to Palestine, but simply to the "Jews' State," where ever that would be.

So in this sense, Michael, we could say that Hitler in 1935 certainly had this much in common with Herzl in 1895--both wanted the Jews out of Europe, and in any land in which such an emigration could be most easily facilitated. During a period in the 1930's, that happened to be Palestine, but I don't think at any point Hitler believed they should go there as opposed to any other place that might have taken them.

But again, if you have evidence to the contrary, I am always happy to consider it.


Sorry I misread your post and am glad I misread it and that you don't consider Hitler to have been a zionist.

I deeply apologize I read your post very carelessly; and thank you for the follow up post it definitely cleared things up.

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”