Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by David Thompson » 19 Aug 2015 02:43

Let's get back on topic -- the suspected or claimed victims of Jewish death squads.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by 4thskorpion » 21 Aug 2015 15:38

Member of a Jewish Holocaust 'Revenge Squad' Tells Story

The Jewish avengers
JEWISH VENGEANCE SQUAD KILLED NAZIS

Howard Blum – author of “Wanted! The Search for Nazis in America” – said his research shows that about 40 soldiers took part in the killings of about 125 Nazis over a period of four months.

Almost all the executions took place along the Austrian-Italian border – where most of the Jewish Brigade was stationed.

“What they did was they obtained the list … of various SS people in the area and they went across Europe and they hunted them down,” Blum said yesterday.

Brigade veteran Johanan Peltz, 80, yesterday admitted he took part in the executions – mostly of low-level SS men.

“We located a number of the perpetrators and we decided to do away with them and we did,” he said. He added that no one ever wrote down orders to kill Nazis, but the mission was clear.
I believe the "Jewish vengeance squad" executions of the Nazi SS might have had a legal basis at the time under Jewish Rabbinic law. The concept of lex talionis or "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth...” can be found in the Torah, Exodus 21:24, Leviticus 24:20 and Deuteronomy 19:21.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by David Thompson » 21 Aug 2015 21:50

little grey rabbit -- For some previous discussions of your question, see:

The Mysterious Fate of Gustav Wagner
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8&t=206053
Holocaust Avengers
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1163
Jewish squads seeking justice
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=116155
Regarding German Enquiry into Jewish Vengence Claims
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=94762
War crime suspect stays in Israel
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=81198
Polish Jew accused of WWII genocide
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=81155
An instance of revenge by one Jewish individual in 1944
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=74786
Jews murdering Germans?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=69080
Holocaust Avengers
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1163
Eye for eye victims?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=89505
Herbert Cukurs
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56115

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by wm » 23 Aug 2015 21:14

4thskorpion wrote:I believe the "Jewish vengeance squad" executions of the Nazi SS might have had a legal basis at the time under Jewish Rabbinic law. The concept of lex talionis or "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth...” can be found in the Torah, Exodus 21:24, Leviticus 24:20 and Deuteronomy 19:21.
In Judaism the eye-for-eye reciprocal justice means a reasonable compensation as administered by court, not vengeance. Vengeance is not allowed at all. Additionally there is the fundamental rule of minimization of violence, Jewish law allows violence to prevent an evil from occurring nothing more.

And really, Abba Kovner and his Marxists apostates, who rejected the Jewish law had no right to interpreter it at all.
It's interesting that the Jewish law is able to deal with that problem easily, but the socialist ideology of Konver's group failed so miserably.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by wm » 23 Aug 2015 21:32

Interestingly, he wanted to murder 6 million Germans by dumping poison into water supplies of German cities, it was the so called A-1 plan. He got a few kilograms of some off the shelf organic poison from a chemistry lab in Israel.

But, using as example arsenic - and a gram of arsenic is needed to kill somebody with certainty , a quick calculation shows the plan would require 6 tons of it.
Allowing for the fact that only small part of the water is consumed by people, most of it is used for other purposes, and that the water treatment reservoirs are really huge - the A-1 plan would probably require hundreds of tons of arsenic.
This is probably more arsenic than was available in the entire Europe.
So, it can't be done with a few kilograms of poison, and it seems can't be done at all. The other poisons would require tons of them too.

So if his plan was naive fantasy, what can be said of the other stories he told? Did his revenge squads really exist?

And even more importantly there was a large number of non-Germans in every German city - displaced persons (including Jews), and Allied soldiers.
Did he want to kill them too? It would mean hundreds of thousands of innocent, non-German victims - in addition to those innocent Germans.
This fact makes its plan even more fairy-tale like.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by HaShomer » 24 Aug 2015 04:12

WM you are not an expert on Jewish Halacha law, so please keep your unlearned opinions and cliches out of these posts. Your hearsay opinion about Jewish hero and Israeli national poet Abba Kovner additionally discredits you.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by 4thskorpion » 24 Aug 2015 08:04

HaShomer wrote:WM you are not an expert on Jewish Halacha law, so please keep your unlearned opinions and cliches out of these posts. Your hearsay opinion about Jewish hero and Israeli national poet Abba Kovner additionally discredits you.
Following a familiar pattern of "Żydokomuna" rhetoric promoted by the Polish nationalist right.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by wm » 24 Aug 2015 10:02

This is why I consulted the excellent Jewish Law web site dedicated to Halacha and Jewish issues, especially the parts dedicated to peace, pacifism and battlefield ethics.
Interestingly, they say there that one of the fundamental rules is: it is forbidden to kill the pursuer (a person or group of people who are seeking to kill one who is innocent) after his evil act is over as a form of punishment.

The opinions are based on The Fall of a Sparrow: The Life and Times of Abba Kovner By Dina Porat.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by 4thskorpion » 24 Aug 2015 10:26

wm wrote:
4thskorpion wrote:I believe the "Jewish vengeance squad" executions of the Nazi SS might have had a legal basis at the time under Jewish Rabbinic law. The concept of lex talionis or "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth...” can be found in the Torah, Exodus 21:24, Leviticus 24:20 and Deuteronomy 19:21.
In Judaism the eye-for-eye reciprocal justice means a reasonable compensation as administered by court, not vengeance. Vengeance is not allowed at all. Additionally there is the fundamental rule of minimization of violence, Jewish law allows violence to prevent an evil from occurring nothing more.

And really, Abba Kovner and his Marxists apostates, who rejected the Jewish law had no right to interpreter it at all.
It's interesting that the Jewish law is able to deal with that problem easily, but the socialist ideology of Konver's group failed so miserably.
Abba Kovner was an activist and member of the Marxist-Zionist youth movement Hashomer Hatzair. The Hashomer Hatzair did not reject Jewish law.

The Nakam were also made up of veterans of the Jewish Brigade. How many of these veterans were your "Marxists apostates"?

wm wrote:This is why I consulted the excellent Jewish Law web site dedicated to Halacha and Jewish issues, especially the parts dedicated to peace, pacifism and battlefield ethics.
Interestingly, they say there that one of the fundamental rules is: it is forbidden to kill the pursuer (a person or group of people who are seeking to kill one who is innocent) after his evil act is over as a form of punishment.
However from your own source:
Rabbi Naphtali Zevi Yehudah Berlin,8 argues that the very verse that prohibits murder, permits war. He claims that the words "from the hand of a man, your brother" prohibit killing only when it is proper to behave in a brotherly manner, but at times of war, killing that would otherwise be prohibited, is permitted. Indeed, such an opinion can also be found in the medieval Talmudic commentary of Tosaphot.
In any case neither you nor I have any expertise outside of google on which to make any meaningful or legitimate interpretations about Rabbinical Law and how it might have applied to the Nakam - suffice to say I think Rabbinical Law might have legitimised any "eye for an eye" revenge executions and you do not.
wm wrote: The opinions are based on The Fall of a Sparrow: The Life and Times of Abba Kovner By Dina Porat.
Page numbers?

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by wm » 24 Aug 2015 11:20

Hashomer Hatzair guided its members toward personal fulfillment of the ideal of becoming a kibbutz member and toward ideological collectivism, the construction of a socialist society in Eretz Israel in the spirit of Marxist thought, and a search for a combination of Zionism, pioneering, and a realization of the Soviet idea of equality.

That ideology was transmitted through an independent youth culture, with young members in turn leading and educating younger members. But Hashomer Hatzair’s real gift was in creating its own style, different from the other youth movements. It formed cohesive groups that were emotionally close to a leader whose authority and personal example were decisive and who was at once a father figure and a teacher imparting knowledge and ideological values.

The groups engaged in scouting, trips, folk dancing, symbols, and flags and used them to foster strict, demanding norms of morality and behavior. In many of the branches Hebrew was spoken, and from afar the members lived the life of Eretz Israel, photographs of whose scenery and famous individuals were hung on every wall. “‘Otherness’ . . . in the face of our usual surroundings,” was Kovner’s novel definition. The determination and single-mindedness with which the members lived group life was almost religious in nature, and in Vilna there was also the special nature of the community itself.
Dina Porat. The Fall of a Sparrow: The Life and Times of Abba Kovner
Kovner became a known poet and orator, master of both the Yiddish and Hebrew word, and an architect of culture. He was for many years a rabbi of his leftist-atheist kibbutz, instilling Jewish traditions and adding spiritual depth to holidays and ceremonies, in order to create a new type of Zionism that was enriched by its Jewish roots.

An atheistic Marxist orthodox Jew would be something to behold. Those people were declared dead after they left their orthodox communities.
Members of his group were leaders of the Communist Party in Israel from 1940 (Esther Novick and Berl Kovner).
You shall neither take revenge from nor bear a grudge against the members of your people; you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
Leviticus 19:18
Taking revenge is an extremely bad trait. A person should be accustomed to rise above his feelings about all worldly matters; for those who understand [the deeper purpose of the world] consider all these matters as vanity and emptiness, which are not worth seeking revenge for.
Moses Maimonides

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by 4thskorpion » 24 Aug 2015 12:21

wm wrote:
Hashomer Hatzair guided its members toward personal fulfillment of the ideal of becoming a kibbutz member and toward ideological collectivism, the construction of a socialist society in Eretz Israel in the spirit of Marxist thought, and a search for a combination of Zionism, pioneering, and a realization of the Soviet idea of equality.

That ideology was transmitted through an independent youth culture, with young members in turn leading and educating younger members. But Hashomer Hatzair’s real gift was in creating its own style, different from the other youth movements. It formed cohesive groups that were emotionally close to a leader whose authority and personal example were decisive and who was at once a father figure and a teacher imparting knowledge and ideological values.

The groups engaged in scouting, trips, folk dancing, symbols, and flags and used them to foster strict, demanding norms of morality and behavior. In many of the branches Hebrew was spoken, and from afar the members lived the life of Eretz Israel, photographs of whose scenery and famous individuals were hung on every wall. “‘Otherness’ . . . in the face of our usual surroundings,” was Kovner’s novel definition. The determination and single-mindedness with which the members lived group life was almost religious in nature, and in Vilna there was also the special nature of the community itself.
Dina Porat. The Fall of a Sparrow: The Life and Times of Abba Kovner
Kovner became a known poet and orator, master of both the Yiddish and Hebrew word, and an architect of culture. He was for many years a rabbi of his leftist-atheist kibbutz, instilling Jewish traditions and adding spiritual depth to holidays and ceremonies, in order to create a new type of Zionism that was enriched by its Jewish roots.

An atheistic Marxist orthodox Jew would be something to behold. Those people were declared dead after they left their orthodox communities.
Members of his group were leaders of the Communist Party in Israel from 1940 (Esther Novick and Berl Kovner).

wm, you are too blinded the Żydokomuna agenda :roll:


From your own Kovner source:
He was for many years a rabbi of his leftist-atheist kibbutz
What is a Rabbi? A rabbi has pastoral duties, such as leading a congregation in prayer; preaching duties, such as delivering a weekly sermon; interpretive duties; interpreting the Torah; and administrative duties. A rabbi will often be available to a member of his or her congregation for spiritual guidance.

Again from your Kovner source:
Searching for moral and historical justice, he exposed the Soviet regime when it was still a pillar of admiration in socialist Israel, and warned against rehabilitating Germany before an appropriate moral response to its crimes was found. His attitude toward both the Jews trapped in the Holocaust and to the Yishuv, empathic and without blame, deeply influenced Israeli historiography and public thought.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by wm » 24 Aug 2015 13:39

A Rabbi is a teacher passing down the accumulated through millennia religious Judaic tradition, Kovner was passing down his own spiritual ideology, he was a Rabbi but rather only for his followers.
Actually his antipathy to communism began when his unrequited love - Esther Novick left him and his spiritual Marxism for scientific communism.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by David Thompson » 24 Aug 2015 14:54

Gentlemen -- The topic is the suspected or claimed victims of alleged Jewish death squads, not the personalities or thought processes of the perpetrators -- please stay on topic.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by 4thskorpion » 24 Aug 2015 15:06

David Thompson wrote:Gentlemen -- The topic is the suspected or claimed victims of alleged Jewish death squads, not the personalities or thought processes of the perpetrators -- please stay on topic.
Duly noted.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by michael mills » 25 Aug 2015 10:23

As I understand it the revenge was usually personal and blind, for example, according to Michał Zammel, a soldier in the Jewish Brigade Group:
We enjoyed the life by avenging themselves on the Germans. It happened, that drivers of military trucks deliberately drove into lines of Germans waiting for bread, killing or wounding them. German women were raped, I saw that myself. I didn't allow my soldiers to do that although it was a trifle in comparison with what the Germans did to our brothers, sisters, families.
That was confirmed by Asher ben Natan, the first Ambassador of Israel to Germany. When I was a student in Germany in 1969, I read an interview with him in "Der Spiegel", in which he told exactly the same story as Zammel, ie that members of the Jewish Brigade stationed in Germany would deliberately run over German civilians with their trucks. He even claimed that he had carried out such killings himself.

Ambassador Ben Natan told that story quite proudly, without any hint of regret, and the craven "Spiegel" interviewers did not take him to task about his homicidal boasting.

It is likely that members of the Jewish Brigade did kill an unknown number of German civilians while they were stationed in Germany after the war, and that the stories about death squads tracking down war criminals and executing them are a cover for the indiscriminate killings of civilians.

It is known that Abba Kovner planned to kill large numbers of German civilians by putting poison into the water supply of a German city. According to his account, the poison was provided by the Dead Sea Chemical Works, an enterprise owned by the Jewish Agency for Palestine, which indicates that the plot must have had official approval from the Jewish authorities, or at least some elements of it.

Again according to Kovner's account, he brought the poison by ship to Europe, but when it arrived in Italy (or perhaps France, I cannot now remember which), the ship was searched by police, so he threw the poison out through a porthole into the sea.

Of course, it is entirely possible that the whole story was fictional, an invention by Kovner, who told lies at the Eichmann trial.

The historical fact is that, despite all the stories of derring-do, there was no organised hunt for German war criminal by Jewish organisations after the war, for the simple reason that they were all concentrated on the more positive task of preparing for the inevitable war with the Arabs for the control of Palestine. There was not even an organised hunt for Eichmann, again despite all the heroic tales.

The truth about the capture of Eichmann is that his whereabouts in Argentina were revealed to Fritz Bauer, a Jewish judge and prosecutor in West Germany, in 1957 by another ex-Nazi fugitive who needed money. Instead of instituting proceedings to have Eichmann extradited from Argentina to West Germany to stand trial, as was his duty as a West German official, he secretly gave the information to Mossad. The reason for that is that if Eichmann were tried in West Germany, he would be able to tell the full story about what happened in Hungary in 1944, when the local Zionist officials effectively collaborated with the deportation of that country's Jews in return for being allowed by Eichmann to smuggle some 10,000 members of Leftist Zionist youth groups out of the country and into Palestine. Bauer's probable intention was that Mossad should kill Eichmann in order to keep him quiet.

However, after receiving the information from Bauer, Mossad did nothing, possibly because it considered it better to keep the whole Hungarian episode quiet by leaving Eichmann alone (it had already caused a scandal in Israel with the murder of Rezsoe Kasztner, the Zionist official who had negotiated the deal with Eichmann). Bauer approached Mossad a second time, but again it did nothing.

In frustration, Bauer approached Mossad a third time, and threatened that if they did not act to capture Eichmann, he would have him extradited to Germany, where he would be free to tell his story. It was only at that point that Mossad started up its operation to kill or capture Eichmann.

It is possible that the original intention was to kill Eichmann to shut him up, but that changed when Ben Gurion realised the advantages of a sensational show trial that would be controlled by the Israeli Government, at which the whole story of the Judeocide could be brought to the World's attention in a blaze of publicity, while suppressing the full story of what had happened in Hungary (a goal that was achieved by refusing to allow Hungarian survivors to testify, and forcefully ejecting them from the courtroom when they protested).

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