Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

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michael mills
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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#151

Post by michael mills » 29 May 2017, 07:37

If so, what exactly do you think would have happened to the Slavic population of the areas under Nazi rule in the event of a Nazi victory? Would they have become slaves/helots to their new Nazi overlords, or what?
Hitler often used British India as a model for German rule over the conquered territories in the East. He praised the way in which a few tens of thousands of Englishmen were able to lord it over hundreds of millions of Indians, and saw German rule as being similar, ie a small number of Germans controlling much larger numbers of non-Germans.

Hitler's image of British India was of course not based on any deep academic study of the region, and reflected commonly held popular views. For example, his image of elite SS troops living in bases along a future eastern frontier of German territory, close to the Urals, and constantly battling against attempts by the uncontrolled eastern peoples to cross it, was no doubt based on popular images of British troops based on the North-West Frontier of British India battling against wild Afghan tribesmen.
Michael, you previously said that you believe that there would have been enough resources (including food) in Siberia to accommodate additional tens of millions of people, correct?
The south-western part of Siberia was very much a food-surplus region, an area with good farmland and a relatively small population. It could certainly have accommodated a considerably larger population that it had in the 1940s.

You need to bear in mind that since the late 19th Century the Russian Imperial Government had been promoting the mass migration of surplus peasants across the Urals into Siberia, and agricultural settlement in that region. It was obviously possible for the West Siberian region to absorb large numbers of agricultural settlers. Later, in the 1950s, the Soviet Government organised large-scale agricultural settlement in the northern part of Kazakhstan, which involved the movement of large numbers of people from west of the Urals to that region. Furthermore, during the 1980s, about 15 million Soviet citizens changed their place of residence within the USSR each year, compared with the estimated annual movement of just over one million persons foreseen in the Generalplan-Ost, out of regions designated for ethnic German settlement.

It needs to be borne in mind that the Generalplan-Ost envisaged the germanisation of only a small part of the Soviet territory west of the Urals, so the people moved out of the regions designated for German settlement would not necessarily be sent to Siberia, but more probably would have been resettled in the regions west of the Urals not designated for germanisation.

For example, the one project that began to be implemented under the Generalplan-Ost, the Hegewald settlement, situated between Berdichev and Mogilev, involved the moving out of the Ukrainian peasants living in the area and their resettlement in other parts of Ukraine, while ethnic Germans living in Ukraine were gathered and moved into the area.
What percentage of the 1.1 million Jews who were killed in 1941 were actually in state and party positions, though?
The 1939 Soviet census found that some 40% of Soviet Jews belonged to the socio-economic category of "sluzhashchie", literally "serving people". This was a category comprising persons working in white-collar managerial functions, ranging from the most senior bureaucrats down to the humblest office clerks, and their families. Thus, the proportion of Jews in this category was much higher than the proportion of the entire Soviet population, or of any other Soviet nationality.

The Soviet Jewish population in 1939 was somewhat over three million, meaning that the number of Jewish "sluzashchie" and their family members would have been of the order of 1.2 million. Although there is an apparent resemblance of that figure to the number of Soviet Jews killed in 1941, it does not mean that the slain Jews were all "sluzhashchie".

The Soviet Government evacuated well over one million Jews out of areas that came under German occupation, and since the evacuees were drawn largely from the cities, it is quite likely that a large proportion of the Jewish "sluzhashchie", possibly the majority, were evacuated to safety. Thus, it is most probable that the majority of the Jews killed were not members of the bureaucracy or the intelligentsia, but were humble workers.

When Heydrich included "Jews in State and Party positions" among the categories of persons subject to summary execution, he was probably under the impression, based on National Socialist ideology, that the Soviet State and party bureaucracy was dominated by Jews, and that the number of Jews in State and Party positions would be very large, a considerable proportion of the Jewish population. That assumption was mistaken, as some of the Einsatzgruppen leaders subsequently discovered.

An interesting example is provided by an Einsatzgruppen unit that came across a Jewish kolkhoz in Ukraine, one where all the inhabitants were Jews. The EG men were surprised to find Jews working on the land, and did not know what to do with them; they obviously had interpreted their mission as being to kill Jews working in managerial positions, but were unsure whether that mission extended to Jews who were not bureaucrats but workers on the land, the same as any Russian or Ukrainian peasant. They asked their superiors for advice from their superiors as to what to do with the Jewish workers, and eventually received orders to kill all the Jews living on the kolkhoz.

It is obvious that the German security police very quickly went beyond the orders originally given by Heydrich, and began killing Jews who were in no way "in State and Party positions".

An interesting opinion is expressed by Michael McQueen in the book "Bitter Legacy: Confronting the Holocaust in the Soviet Union", edited by Zvi Gitelman (Indiana University Press, 1997). It is in Chapter 7 of the book, "Nazi Policy in the Reichskommissariat Ostland, June-Decmber 1941: From White Terror to Holocaust in Lithuania", written by McQueen. This opinion is noteworthy, in that it was precisely in occupied Lithuania that the mass killing of Jewish women and children began.

Page 101:
One might further speculate that Jaeger [commander of EK 3 of EG A] engaged in a competition with other Einsatzkommando leaders, in the expectation that demonstrated zeal in the pursuit of the racial goals of Nazi policy, above and beyond the guidelines established by Heydrich in his orders, would be rewarded. It is clear that he and the other EK leaders expressly violated the orders on the treatment of the Jews issued by the civilian administration of the Reichskommissariat Ostland and military-economic apparatus of the Wehrmacht.

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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#152

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 May 2017, 09:38

Hi Michael,

One of the problems is that very large numbers of people were killed by the Nazis without there being a public policy demanding that this be their fate.

If some 6 million Jews were killed without leaving a paper trail to the very top, it cannot be said with any certainty how far the Nazis would have gone in the case of other groups such as the Slavs. They seem to have regarded the Polish intelligencia and Soviet Commissars as group threats worthy of physical annihilation. They also began to squeeze people out of urban centres in areas of the East they occupied and seemed intent on restricting education levels amongst conquered Slavs to the bare miniumum needed to serve their purposes. These purposes appear to have required little more than a lumpen peasentry of Slavs to work the lands taken in the East.

In the short term, there were clearly not enough Germans and Germanics to fully occupy and work the conquered lands in the East, but pro-natalist Nazi policies certainly planned that there should be in the future. So, I would suggest, any threat to the physical existence of Slavs in the East lay several generations in the future, when there might be enough Germans to displace them. Thus I would not expect any specific planning for their mass final disposal to have existed during the war years.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. I guess the nearest to a working model of the future for Slavs would have been around Zamosc, which Himmler renamed Himmlerstadt and where he began to settle Germans in 1942-43. Is there a specific study of Himmlerstadt?


michael mills
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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#153

Post by michael mills » 29 May 2017, 12:02

P.S. I guess the nearest to a working model of the future for Slavs would have been around Zamosc, which Himmler renamed Himmlerstadt and where he began to settle Germans in 1942-43. Is there a specific study of Himmlerstadt?
Himmler placed the trial germanisation of the Zamosc region in the hands of Globocnik, who expropriated and expelled large numbers of Polish peasants. Ethnic German peasants brought in from Bessarabia were settled in their place.

The process provoked an uprising by the Peasant Battalions, a part of the Polish Underground. The peasant insurgents attacked the farms now occupied by ethnic Germans and destroyed many of them, killing or expelling the new occupants. As a result of the turmoil there was a massive fall in production, since the ethnic German settlers could not concentrate on farming, and many of them fled.

In the end, Himmler had to call off the germanisation project in order to halt the fall in food production. In short, the Zamosc project turned out to be a complete failure. It could only have succeeded if there had been sufficient German security forces available to protect the ethnic German settlers from the Polish peasant rebels, but such forces could not be provided since they were needed on the Russian front.

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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#154

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 May 2017, 12:32

Hi Michael,

From what you write, it looks as though the Zamosc experiment went straight to saturation German settlement and total displacement of the local Slavs without any intermediate phase where a small group of Germans settlers used local Slavs for basic labour. Is that a correct reading?

Cheers,

Sid.

michael mills
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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#155

Post by michael mills » 29 May 2017, 13:26

That's essentially correct. Ethnic German families were placed on farms from which the Polish owners had been expelled, without any use of Polish labour. The aim was to establish the ethnic German settlers as peasant smallholders, not as estate-owning landlords.

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James Paul
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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#156

Post by James Paul » 30 May 2017, 04:24

Himmler's policies for the East could not have been applied without some sort of murder.

How else was he going to complete his idealist version of Germanization with the belief that it would only be complete when "in the East dwell only men with truly German, Germanic blood"?

Himmler's memo Reflections on the Treatment of Peoples of Alien Races in the East explains exactly what the Nazis future plans were for the Slavs and others in the East, here is a snippet:
Concerning the treatment of peoples of alien races in the East we have to see to it that we acknowledge and cultivate as many individual ethnic groups as possible, that is, outside of the Poles and the Jews, also the Ukrainians, the White Russians, the Gorals [Goralen], the Lemcos [Lemken] and the Cashubos [Kaschuben]. If other small and isolated national groups can be found in other places, they should be treated the same way.

What I want to say is that we are not only most interested in not unifying the population of the East, but, on the contrary, in splitting them up into as many parts and fragments as possible.

A basic issue in the solution of all these problems is the question of schooling and thus the question of sifting and selecting the young. For the non-German population of the East there must be no higher school than the four-grade elementary school. The sole goal of this school is to be--

Simply arithmetic up to 500 at the most; writing of one's name; the doctrine that it is a divine law to obey the Germans and to be honest, industrious, and good. I don't think that reading is necessary.

Apart from this school there are to be no schools at all in the East. Parents, who from the beginning want to give their children better schooling in the elementary school as well as later on in a higher school, must take an application to the Higher SS and Police Leaders. The first consideration in dealing with this application will be whether the child is racially perfect and conforming to our conditions. If we acknowledge such a child to be as of our blood, the parents will be notified that the child will be sent to a school in Germany and that it will permanently remain in Germany.

The parents of such children of good blood will be given the choice to either give away their child; they will then probably produce no more children so that the danger of this subhuman people of the East [Untermenschenvolk des Ostens] obtaining class of leaders which, since it would be equal to us, would also be dangerous for us, will disappear--or else the parents pledge themselves to go to Germany and to become loyal citizens there. The love toward their child, whose future and education depends on the loyalty of the parents, will be a strong weapon in dealing with them.

This population will, as a people of laborers without leaders, be at our disposal and will furnish Germany annually with migrant workers and with workers for special tasks (roads, quarries, buildings): they themselves will have more to eat and more to live on than under the Polish regime; and, though they have no culture of their own, they will, under the strict, consistent, and just leadership of the German people, be called upon to help work on its everlasting cultural tasks and its buildings and perhaps, as far as the amount of heavy work is concerned, will be the ones who make the realization of these tasks possible.
It's incredibly ironic that in the same memo he said "Cruel and tragic as every individual case may be, this method is still the mildest and best one if, out of inner conviction, one rejects as un-German and impossible the Bolshevist method of physical extermination of a people."

Himmler also used King Henry I as a good role model since he was the first King of Germany who fought against the Slavs.

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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#157

Post by michael mills » 30 May 2017, 05:21

There is nothing in the snippet about murder.

For the "alien races of the East", two destinies are foreseen:

1. Those of "good blood" will be given the chance to be educated in Germany and become germanised.

2. The rest will only receive four years of elementary schooling (ie the norm for the great majority of Polish children in 1939), and will become part of a migrant labour force that will perform tasks involving heavy manual labour.

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James Paul
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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#158

Post by James Paul » 30 May 2017, 14:16

michael mills wrote:There is nothing in the snippet about murder.

For the "alien races of the East", two destinies are foreseen:

1. Those of "good blood" will be given the chance to be educated in Germany and become germanised.

2. The rest will only receive four years of elementary schooling (ie the norm for the great majority of Polish children in 1939), and will become part of a migrant labour force that will perform tasks involving heavy manual labour.
With regards to reflecting on the Reflections on the Treatment of Peoples of Alien Races in the East, Himmler stated:
On Saturday, 25 May 1940, I handed my memorandum on the treatment of peoples of alien race in the East to the Fuehrer.[document No-1880, Prosecution Exhibit 1314, reproduced immediately above.] The Fuehrer read the six pages and considered them very good and correct. He directed, however, that only very few copies should be issued; that there should be no large edition, and that the report is to be treated with utmost secrecy.
There was a reason why the document was a top secret. Although the document does not explicitly refer to murder, it doesn't take a genius to work out that the policies Himmler envisaged that are in the memo would have included murder to a certain degree. The Slavs were simply there to be used and abused by the Nazis and were only treated well when it suited their own needs otherwise they received the exact same treatment as the Jews did.

I think this quote sums it up correctly:
The SS had constructed a Europe-wide apparatus of repression, which not only brutally suppressed all opposition tendencies and any resistance but, in addition and above all, systematically and massively murdered all potential opponents and 'racial inferior' on the basis of alleged biological criteria, a policy that in the first instance was directed at the Jews but also targeted, above all, east European Gypsies and sections of the Slav population.
Peter Longerich, Heinrich Himmler: A Life, p. 641

Here is one example of Himmler trying to justify the atrocities that were committed in the East:
Then there's the question of alleged atrocities. It is of course quite possible that in the east a train gets frozen in and not only during evacuations and that the people freeze to death. That's possible. Unfortunately that's happened to Germans as well. You simply can't do anything about it if you're travelling from Łódź to Warsaw and the train gets stuck for hours on end. Then you can't blame the railways or anybody. That's the fault of the climate there. It's regrettable for the Germans, it's regrettable for the Poles, and, if you like, it's regrettable for the Jews as well, if anyone feels like being sorry for them. But it's not intended and it can't be helped. I think it's wrong to make a big song and dance about it.
Ibid. p. 464

Longerich's book is well worth a read.

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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#159

Post by michael mills » 31 May 2017, 03:44

The Fuehrer read the six pages and considered them very good and correct.
Hitler wrote the words "sehr gut und richtig" (very good and correct) on the margin of his copy of the memorandum given to him by Himmler, right next to the section where the latter had expressed the view that the "Bolshevik method" of the extermination of a people was something that the German spirit should reject.

The reasonable conclusion to be drawn from that is that in May 1940 Hitler himself was not contemplating genocide.
The Slavs were simply there to be used and abused by the Nazis and were only treated well when it suited their own needs otherwise they received the exact same treatment as the Jews did.
The section of the above quote bolded by me is simply incorrect. Right from the beginning of the occupation of Poland in 1939, the German Government drew a clear distinction between Poles and Jews, and kept them strictly apart, eventually enclosing the Jews in ghettos. Poles were in fact regarded as "Aryans", although of a lower grade than Germans, and as racially quite distinct from Jews.

Himmler considered that a proportion of the Polish people, and indeed of other Slavic peoples, was capable of gemanisation, that is of being successfully absorbed into the German people. By contrast, he never considered any Jews to be capable of germanisation, due to their being of an alien race, and that they should be separated out from all the "Aryan" peoples and expelled totally from the lands of those peoples, ie Europe.

For example, Poles and other Slavs who were German citizens due to the fact of living on German territory were never deprived of their citizenship in the way that German Jews were, and were never expelled from Germany.

It is interesting that in the period from 1939 until the beginning of the deportation and slaughter of the Jewish population, Poles living under German occupation regarded themselves as being treated worse than the Jews, since sections of the Polish population were being severely persecuted, eg the intelligentsia regarded as the leaders of opposition to German rule, whereas Jews were merely being confined to separate areas.

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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#160

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Jun 2017, 09:28

Hi Michael,

Reading your post above, where you wite, "The rest will only receive four years of elementary schooling (i.e. the norm for the great majority of Polish children in 1939)....." one might have concluded that the Nazis were simply maintaining the Polish education system as they found it.

In fact, four years of primary education was not "the norm" for Polish children in 1939. There had been universal primary education in law for all children from 7 to 14 since 1919. It took time to unify the three limited systems of Polish education used by the Russians, Germans and Austrians before WWI but by 1939 seven years was the norm. While it may (or may not) be true that in 1939 it was the norm that most Polish adults had only had four years of primary education, it was not true of the children in school at that time, who could expect seven years.

You also fail to mention that there were selective secondary and tertiary education schools and universities above this. These were all closed down by the Nazis, thousands of their teachers were killed and all educational training establishments for them closed.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#161

Post by michael mills » 01 Jun 2017, 11:51

Sid,

You are making the heroic assumption that all Polish children received the minimum seven years of elementary schooling mandated by law. In fact, especially in the undeveloped eastern provinces, many peasant children in particular did not stay at school for that period since their parents required them to work on the family farm. The great majority of Polish children aged between 7 and 14 belonged to peasant families, and were unlikely to stay at school for the full seven years.

Furthermore, only a small minority of Polish teenagers received a secondary education, and an even smaller minority a tertiary education. If Himmler's proposal to limit the education of Poles to four years of primary schooling had actually been implemented, it would have impacted only a minority of the Polish population of school age.

In fact, Himmler's proposal was never implemented in full. Although the existing secondary schools and universities were closed down, the German occupation authorities did establish technical and vocational schools for Poles, since they realised that the Polish work force would need to receive some level of practical training if it were to be of any use for German purposes.

One of the reasons for the establishment of vocational training for Poles was that a skilled workforce was needed to replace all the Jewish artisans and other skilled workers who had been exterminated. During the interwar period the average Polish Jew was much better educated than the average Pole, due to the existence of the traditional Jewish educational system, and the literacy rate among Jews was appreciably higher than among Poles.

Of course, some of Himmler's postulations were quite nonsensical, such as that Polish children would only be taught to count up to 10. The fact is that children do not need to receive formal education in order to learn to count, and totally illiterate peoples have numerical systems up to the thousands, and are able to perform complex arithmetical calculations in their heads. The words for all numbers up to the thousands existed in all the European languages well before the peoples speaking them acquired writing systems.

Furthermore, Himmler's postulations about the education of Polish children applied only to those unsuitable for germanisation. Those who were selected for germanisation, and Himmler considered that their numbers would be considerable due to the survival of ancient Germanic "blood" among the Polish and other Slavic populations, would receive the same level of education as German children.

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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#162

Post by GregSingh » 01 Jun 2017, 12:15

The great majority of Polish children aged between 7 and 14 belonged to peasant families, and were unlikely to stay at school for the full seven years.
Official data from 1937/38
Only in Volhynia percentage of 13 years old at school was 49.9%, higher everywhere else. For the whole country 74.4%.
7-13 yo 1937-38.jpg
Percentages of 7-13 yo at school during 1937/38

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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#163

Post by gebhk » 01 Jun 2017, 12:21

Surely the point is that neither Hitler or Himmler had the right to make those decisions about Polish education. Everything else is somewhat academic to the matter in hand.

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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#164

Post by michael mills » 01 Jun 2017, 13:51

The matter at hand is whether Hitler and Himmler were planning to physically destroy Slavic populations.

Limiting the educational opportunities provided to the children of those populations falls a long way short of physical destruction.

And as I pointed out, in practice the German occupiers did provide education beyond the elementary level to Polish young people, in the form of technical and vocational training. After all, the Germans wanted a skilled work force.

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Re: Fate of the Slavs and Poles if the Nazis won?

#165

Post by michael mills » 01 Jun 2017, 13:53

Percentages of 7-13 yo at school during 1937/38
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According to those official figures, more than 100% of children aged from 7 to 13 were attending school in Warsaw.

A truly amazing achievement!

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