"The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

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michael mills
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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#91

Post by michael mills » 26 Jan 2018, 00:32

Totenkopf is the skull/prepared head that Morgen mentioned in at least one of his interrogations.
"Totenkopf" simply does not have the meaning of shrunken head or real skull.

The author of the hand-written document is asking questions. It is apparent that he does not know what Morgen found in Koch's house or in Pister's office. It seems that he has just heard rumours, and is asking for confirmation of them.

If the rumour he heard had stated that a real shrunken head or skull had been found, he would have used the words "Schrumpfkopf" or "Schaedel". The fact that he used the word "Totenkopf" indicates that he thought that the object rumoured to have been found was not a real human remain but a model, eg a model of a skull.

As I wrote, the word "Totenkopf" cannot denote a shrunken head. It can only denote an image of a defeleshed human skull, usually accompanied by crossbones. The international symbol for deadly danger, eg on a bottle of poison, or on the door of an electricity switchbox, is called "Totenkopf" in German.

All that this document shows is that there were rumours flying around that Morgen had found something that resembled a human skull in either Koch's house or Pister's office. It neither proves nor disproves the claim that a shrunken human head was found among the possessions of either Koch or Pister.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#92

Post by Sergey Romanov » 26 Jan 2018, 09:22

michael mills wrote:
Totenkopf is the skull/prepared head that Morgen mentioned in at least one of his interrogations.
"Totenkopf" simply does not have the meaning of shrunken head or real skull.

The author of the hand-written document is asking questions. It is apparent that he does not know what Morgen found in Koch's house or in Pister's office. It seems that he has just heard rumours, and is asking for confirmation of them.

If the rumour he heard had stated that a real shrunken head or skull had been found, he would have used the words "Schrumpfkopf" or "Schaedel". The fact that he used the word "Totenkopf" indicates that he thought that the object rumoured to have been found was not a real human remain but a model, eg a model of a skull.

As I wrote, the word "Totenkopf" cannot denote a shrunken head. It can only denote an image of a defeleshed human skull, usually accompanied by crossbones. The international symbol for deadly danger, eg on a bottle of poison, or on the door of an electricity switchbox, is called "Totenkopf" in German.

All that this document shows is that there were rumours flying around that Morgen had found something that resembled a human skull in either Koch's house or Pister's office. It neither proves nor disproves the claim that a shrunken human head was found among the possessions of either Koch or Pister.
Since I obviously did not write anything about a shrunken head above, you might lack in a reading comprehension, Michael, so your claim of what Totenkopf would mean is also not of much value. As I wrote, in this case Totenkopf means the skull/prepared head that Morgen mentioned in at least one of his interrogations.
Specifically, most probably this one: http://fotoarchiv.buchenwald.de/index.p ... fotos/2613


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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#93

Post by michael mills » 26 Jan 2018, 11:20

Specifically, most probably this one: http://fotoarchiv.buchenwald.de/index.p ... fotos/2613
What I can see in the linked photo is obviously a sculpture of a head.

It is definitely not a "Totenkopf", which can only denote an image of a skull, or of a skull-and-crossbones.

The sole point I am making is that this unsigned handwritten document does not really gives us any information about what may have been found in Koch's house or Poster's office. The writer of the document clearly does not know, as he is asking a series of questions.

Here are some Google images for "Totenkopf". As you will see, they are all images or models, not real skulls.

If the sculpture of a head shown in the linked photo is indeed what was found in Pister's offices during the investigation by Morgen, then the rumours that reached the writer of the documents in question must have been greatly distorted in transmission, since that object is most certainly not a "Totenkopf", nor can it be any sort of "prepared head", ie a real head that has been mummified or preserved in some way.

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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#94

Post by michael mills » 26 Jan 2018, 11:24

In fact, when I blow it up 1000%, I can clearly see the mustache. It is a bust of Hitler!

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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#95

Post by siwiec » 26 Jan 2018, 19:35

michael mills wrote:In fact, when I blow it up 1000%, I can clearly see the mustache. It is a bust of Hitler!
Hmm, may I suggest you look what's on the table, not in the corner...

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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#96

Post by Sergey Romanov » 26 Jan 2018, 20:02

Michael, I suggest using your glasses.

*facepalm*

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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#97

Post by michael mills » 26 Jan 2018, 23:03

Yes, I see it now. Probably a model of a skull rather than a real one. It is a bit too white and shiny to be real bone, most likely plastic or plaster, the sort of model commonly used for teaching anatomy. Many decades ago I saw a real skull that was in the possession of a medical student, and it was a dull yellowish-brown in colour and did not have the lower jaw.

That is probably why the anonymous writer of the document used the word "Totenkopf" rather than "Schaedel". He must have heard a report that during the investigation by Morgen a model of a skull had been found on Pister's desk.

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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#98

Post by michael mills » 27 Jan 2018, 02:35

From the cross-examination of Heinrich Nett by the Prosecution at the Buchenwald Trial, 13 June 1947 (pp. 2958-2959). Nett was an officer of the Criminal Police who had taken part in the searching of Koch's house in 1943.

Q You were interrogated by Mr. Kirschbaum, were you not?

A Yes. Interrogation? Well you can call it interrogation, I just call it instruction. You need something else for interrogation.

Q A what?

A Some questions were put to me and I was to answer them yes or no and I did to the best of my ability, but in my opinion it never got into an interrogation.

Q As a matter of fact didn't you say there were a number of things you didn't know about and didn't you suggest that Mr. Kirschbaum ask Doctor Morgen about them?

A Yes because I knew about this only by rumors. I suggested to Mr. Kirschbaum that he ask Doctor Morgen about them.

Q As a matter of fact you wrote down in your own handwriting some of those things that you didn't know about and told Mr. Kirschbaum to ask Doctor Morgen concerning them, did you not?

A I guess that's one other thing to show you how objective was.

Q That is true, isn't it, that's all I want to know?

A Yes I wrote down for Mr. Kirschbaum all these matters that were in doubt and told him to talk them over with Doctor Morgen in Nuernberg. As a matter of fact, he asked me.
Could the hand-written document that is the object of this discussion be the series of questions that Nett stated that he wrote down for Kirschbaum?

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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#99

Post by Sergey Romanov » 27 Jan 2018, 03:46

No, since had you read the document, you would have seen that Nett is mentioned there as a third person.

The skull seen by Morgen was an actual skull of an alleged criminal. That's what we probably see on the photo.

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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#100

Post by Helmut0815 » 22 Mar 2024, 19:51

michael mills wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 06:59
Does the Buchenwald Museum say that the shade on that lamp was proved to be made of human skin? Does it have a record of tests having been carried out on it, and the results?
It has recently been proven by forensic examinations that the Buchenwald lamp shades were indeed made of human skin.
Eines der berüchtigtsten Exponate in der Sammlung der Gedenkstätte Buchenwald zeugt nach neuesten Forschungsergebnissen vom Ausmaß der Menschenverachtung der nationalsozialistischen Täter: Der sogenannte Kleine Lampenschirm sei eindeutig aus Menschenhaut gemacht worden, sagte der Kriminalbiologe Mark Benecke am Donnerstag in Weimar. Das Material des Lampenschirms weise unter anderem Muster auf, die "nur menschlich sein können".

Wie ein Gutachten aus dem Jahr 1992 zu dem Schluss gekommen sei, dieser Lampenschirm sei aus Kunststoff gefertigt worden, "das erschließt sich gar nicht". Es gebe in diesem Gewebe Muster, die es bei Kunststoff gar nicht gebe. Benecke hatte den Schirm im Auftrag der Stiftung Gedenkstätten Buchenwald und Mittelbau-Dora untersucht.

####################################################

According to the latest research results, one of the most notorious exhibits in the collection of the Buchenwald Memorial testifies to the extent of the National Socialist perpetrators' contempt for humanity: The so-called small Lampshade was clearly made of human skin, said criminal biologist Mark Benecke on Thursday in Weimar. Among other things, the material of the lampshade has patterns that "can only be human".

How an expert opinion from 1992 had come to the conclusion that this lampshade had been made of plastic, "that is not clear at all". There are patterns in this fabric that do not exist in plastic. Benecke had examined the shade on behalf of the Buchenwald and Mittelbau-Dora Memorials Foundation.


Complete article in german magazine STERN from 21.03.2024 in german language: https://www.stern.de/panorama/verbreche ... 65106.html

See also https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/thuering ... e-100.html


regards


Helmut

michael mills
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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#101

Post by michael mills » 23 Mar 2024, 02:28

This assumes that the lampshade allegedly examined by Benecke was indeed one of those found in the house of the former commandant of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp, Karl-Otto Koch.

Everything that I have read about those lampshades has stated that they disappeared, and have never been found. Where did Benecke find the lampshade he allegedly examined?

PS: The article at the website of the Buchenwald Memorial states that the lampshade was publicly exhibited at the Memorial from 1954 to 1990, when the Buchenwald site was in East German territory, but that it was removed from public display in 1990, allegedly "for ethical reasons".

One is left wondering where this article was before 1954, and where it came from. I recall that way back in the 1950s the former US High Commissioner in the US Occupation Zone, McCloy, stated that the lampshades had been found to be made of goatskin.

I remain skeptical, particularly as a previous examination of this article in 1993 found that it was made of plastic, suggesting that it was a forgery manufactured by the East Germans or the Soviets at some time before 1954, and was not one of the articles found at Buchenwald and put on display immediately after the capture of the camp by the US Army in April 1945, and shown in photos of that display.

I think we need further details of the tests applied by Benecke before his conclusions can be accepted unreservedly. The article at the Buchenwald Memorial website is also dubious, because it claims that a piece of tattooed human skin held in the Memorial's collection was part of the so-called large lampshade, the one seen in photos of the April 1945 display of human remains found at Buchenwald. However, the origin of the pieces of tattooed human skin found at Buchenwald is in fact well known; they were part of a collection of samples of tattooed human skin taken from deceased prisoners made by one of the SS doctors, for the purpose of writing a thesis on the connection between the practice of tattooing and organised criminality. There is also the thesis that Himmler had ordered the collection of specimens of tattooed skin for display in a Museum of Criminality that he proposed to establish after the war.

The collection of tattooed skin from executed criminals was in fact not unusual at the time. There was a Romanian forensic scientist, Dr Nicolae Minovici, who had made such a collection in the 19th Century, and there is the possibility that that collection was the inspiration for the thesis planned by the SS doctor at Buchenwald. What it shows is that the collection of human skin was by no means unique to the SS, and thus not specifically a sign off their '"dehumanisation", as claimed in the article.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... splay.html

https://www.vice.com/da/article/yvqywv/ ... n-skin-876

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Minovici

https://www.bizzarrobazar.com/en/2015/1 ... -minovici/

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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#102

Post by michael mills » 23 Mar 2024, 03:56

There are some details about this small lampshade, including a photo of it, on page 2 of this thread, in post number 29 by Black Rabbit of Inle.

That post contains this information about the source of the lampshade:

"This lampshade was given to the museum by the communist Karl Straub, a former inmate at the camp who in 1946 became the administrator of the Buchenwald committee of the Association of Persecutees of the Nazi Regime, and following the opening of the memorial at Buchenwald in 1954, worked as a full-time tour guide at the former camp up until 1961. "

That suggests that the lampshade might well be a Communist forgery. The photo of it seems to show a woven pattern, rather like a basket-weaving.

The post also gives information about the examination of the lampshade in 1992, which concluded that it was made from plastic.

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Re: "The Buchenwald Report" on tattooed skin, lampshades, shrunken heads.

#103

Post by gebhk » 23 Mar 2024, 12:07

It is apparently possible nowadays to extract DNA from leather, so I would assume that that would be the go-to method as not only would it have answered once and for all whether the item in question was made of human skin or not and may have yielded a wealth of other useful information; possibly even pointers to the identity of the victim. I am a tad surprised, therefore, that Marck Benecke does not mention this technique by name if he used it; and if not, why not?

On top of that, given the lack of assurance of the provenance of the item, I have to share Michael Mills' scepticism.

However I do not share his view that since keeping body parts (such as human skin) for supposedly 'research' purposes was common practice, it is not evidence of the dehumanisation of the SS. To my mind it is evidence that the SS were just as dehumanised as the rest of us in some respects. After all a lampshade which was at least thought to be made of human skin was put on public display for tourists to gawp at and thousands gawped. What does that say about us? It is a fact that the medical/research professions held the view that it was their God-given right to keep their patients'/subjects' bodies or parts thereof and dispose of them as they see fit till relatively recent times. In the UK this practice was dragged kicking and screaming into the limelight by Helen Rickard in the mid nineties and subsequently found wanting both formally, legally and in the eyes of public opinion. I don't think it was OK in the 1940's either.

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