Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

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history1
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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by history1 » 12 Mar 2016 14:45

Peter K wrote:4thskorpion,
Check official numbers (as of February 2016) of 'Righteous Gentiles' per each ethnic group (those who belonged to national minorities were not assigned to Poland, even if they were pre-war Polish citizens): http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/statistics.asp . Polish contingent is the most numerous in absolute numbers, [...]
I don´know if you meant this serious or if you´re kidding?
Poland was the biggest country then with the most inhabitants (~ 35 millions) in Europe, don´t compare it with countries with far less inhabitants. When we calculate the percentage of the Polish Righteous vs. the Polish collaborators or silent bystanders the Righteous are only 0.018 %.
Not so heroic and outstanding anymore.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by Peter K » 12 Mar 2016 15:19

history1 wrote:Poland was the biggest country then with the most inhabitants (~ 35 millions) in Europe
According to Polish "Little Statistical Yearbook" ("LSY") 1938 edition, Poland had ~34,5 million people. However - assuming that percentages of ethnic and religious groups did not change since the census of 1931 - only ~22,0 million of them were Roman Catholic ethnic Poles and another ~1,4 million were Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Protestant and other Non-Jewish Poles, according to census data. Note, that "Righteous Gentiles" who were citizens of Poland but ethnically - for example - Ukrainian, are counted among 2544 Ukrainian "Righteous Gentiles", not among 6620 Polish ones. Ukraine did not exist as a nation-state back then, but was divided between the USSR and Poland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R ... nic_origin

Here is a list of Polish "Righteous Gentiles", they are ethnic Poles but I'm not sure if all are Roman Catholics:

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteou ... poland.pdf

Poland was also not "the biggest country with the most inhabitants". Here is the data from "LSY" of 1938:

USSR ----------------------- 173,0 million
Germany ------------------- 67,2 million
Austria ---------------------- 6,8 million
Free City Danzig ---------- 0,4 million
United Kingdom ---------- 47,1 million
Italy ------------------------- 42,3 million
France --------------------- 41,9 million
Poland --------------------- 34,5 million, of whom 22 million Roman Catholic Poles + up to 1,4 million other Gentile Poles
Spain ----------------------- 24,8 million
Romania ------------------- 19,2 million
Czechoslovakia ---------- 15,2 million
Yugoslavia ---------------- 15,0 million
Hungary -------------------- 8,9 million
Netherlands --------------- 8,5 million
Belgium -------------------- 8,3 million
Portugal ------------------- 7,2 million
Greece --------------------- 6,8 million
Sweden -------------------- 6,3 million
Bulgaria -------------------- 6,2 million
Switzerland --------------- 4,2 million
Denmark ------------------ 3,7 million
Norway -------------------- 2,9 million
Lithuania ------------------ 2,5 million
Latvia ---------------------- 2,0 million
Albania -------------------- 1,1 million
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by 4thskorpion » 12 Mar 2016 15:28

We should be fair to add in the 700 Poles that the IPN confirmed were executed by the German occupation forces/authorities for aiding or assisting Jews.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by wm » 12 Mar 2016 15:32

4thskorpion wrote:There was a controversy recently when Gross pointed out that during World War II Poles killed more Jews than they killed Germans!
Gross is famous mainly for not getting it (like his wholesale arrogant condemnation of the Poles for sounding the early alarm on the catastrophic Muslim flood), shallow emotional unprofessional writings, and false claims like that the Poles killed more Jews than they killed Germans - which itself is emotional trolling by a man claiming to be professional historian.
Not to mention his numbers were obtained through haruspicy apparently, and are not based on facts.


And those people weren't Jewish Holocaust survivors they were mostly Jews returning from the USSR after the war.

The so called righteousness Poles acted as the Polish culture, their faith, the Polish Government, institutions, parties dictated them. This behaviour didn't emerge just out of nothing.
Rzeszów was just a tiny riot sparked by a gruesome murder, if not for the Jews nobody would even remember it or care. The Polish culture, the Catholic Church, the Polish Government, institutions, parties didn't advocate riots, murders, lynching for that or any other reason.

This fundamental difference makes such comparisons invalid. Riots, crime are a daily occurrence all around the world and usually have no nationality.

As to blood libel people in the most advanced countries believe in such things today, in this regard nothing has changed at all.
The Jews because of their medieval looks, strange behaviour, language, separatism, apparent unfriendliness (a Hasidic Jew wouldn't even greet a Polish woman) were magnets for various strange superstitions, especially among the peasants who anyway harbored lots of strange superstitions many of the harmfull to them directly.
Actually the only more superstitious group in Poland were the Jews themselves.
Last edited by wm on 12 Mar 2016 15:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by 4thskorpion » 12 Mar 2016 15:38

wm wrote:As to blood libel people in the most advanced countries believe in such things today, in this regard nothing has changed at all.

Of all the most preposterous things written in your last post this just about tops the lot and is really not worth commenting further.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by wm » 12 Mar 2016 15:44

Well, google Michelle Remembers, McMartin preschool trial, day-care sex-abuse hysteria, or satanic ritual abuse for starters.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by Peter K » 12 Mar 2016 15:53

4thskorpion wrote:
wm wrote:As to blood libel people in the most advanced countries believe in such things today, in this regard nothing has changed at all.

Of all the most preposterous things written in your last post this just about tops the lot and is really not worth commenting further.
What about Dr. David Duke PhD., though? :lol: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke

I think he probably believes in blood libel (at least for sure he does believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion).

And he lives in perhaps the most advanced country on Earth - the USA.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by wm » 12 Mar 2016 16:03

history1 wrote: silent bystander
There is nothing wrong with being a silent bystander. After reading a lot on the realities of life during the occupation I wholeheartedly recommend this type of behaviour, especially against strangers.

During the occupation the Dutch in their first world country, in their nice large houses, with plentiful food around were able to harbor nice feelings, be civil, to show love and care to others and their pets.
The Poles in their second and half world country rather consumed their pets, were always hungry, flea-ridden, irritable and lived three or even four per room.
It would nice to remember these facts before we start to condemn them from behind our LCD monitors and iPhones.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by 4thskorpion » 12 Mar 2016 16:11

Polish Jews Protest Monument to Righteous Gentiles in Warsaw Ghetto
Jan Grabowsky, a professor of history at the University of Ottowa, Canada. “The problem is that this monument will be used as a shield to deflect from the history of anti-Semitism in Poland.”

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by wm » 12 Mar 2016 16:21

So the Warsaw Ghetto still exists? :)
Who would have thought.

I wonder what Mr Grabowski would have to say about Tadeusz Rydzyk (nominally a priest, but actually a surprisingly successful media mogul and businessman) and his Chapel of Remembrance - a tribute to Poles who rescued Jews. :)
Peter K wrote:
blood libel accusations against Jews
After ~5 years of being exposed to Nazi German propaganda, the worst of all existing anti-Jewish stereotypes was still blood libel?
Actually in this case it was a very popular child disciplinary method: behave himself or the Jew/gypsy/chimney sweeper will take you away and do terrible things to you. Why the three groups were useful for this purpose is rather obvious. This was reinforcing the belief of some that Jews or gypsies actually do these things, although generally this superstition wasn't especially harmful.
Last edited by wm on 12 Mar 2016 17:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by Peter K » 12 Mar 2016 16:38

4thskorpion wrote:We should be fair to add in the 700 Poles that the IPN confirmed were executed by the German occupation forces/authorities for aiding or assisting Jews.
Thanks for pointing this out too.

BTW - like most things, people's attitudes towards the Holocaust during WW2 probably formed a bell curve:

http://www.hrzone.com/hr-glossary/what-is-a-bell-curve

http://www.oswego.edu/~srp/stats/z.htm
Standard normal distribution.png
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There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by 4thskorpion » 12 Mar 2016 17:04

To date, about 6,400 Poles, out of a population of more than 22 million, have been named Righteous Among the Nations. That’s 0.21 percent (less than a quarter of 1 percent) of Polish Jews receiving help from Poles. Some 3 million Polish Jews perished in the Holocaust, many of them turned in by their Polish neighbors.

In the Netherlands, with a Jewish population of 154,887, there were 5,204 gentiles named Righteous Among Nations, which comes to 3.6 percent of Dutch Jews being saved by their neighbours.

In France, where 350,000 Jews, including many refugees, lived at the beginning of the war, there were 3,513 Righteous Gentiles, meaning about1 percent of French Jews were saved by their neighbours.

Even the record of Germans living in Nazi Germany was slightly better than that of the Polish citizenry. With 214,000 Jews in 1937, there were 510 Righteous Gentiles who saved about 0.24 percent of the local Jews.


Righteous Gentiles Honored in Warsaw, But Poland’s Record Remains Abysmal

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by wm » 12 Mar 2016 17:12

history1 wrote: They also mention "Germans" as guards of a certain workgroup, without any evidence that they were Germans at all and not eg. Trawniki men. Also it´s very ashameing for them that they are not naming the units /SS men, once the called them Nazi Germans or Nazi Germany and even not SS men. But with the new politic in Poland the apopriate term is only the generalise "Germans".
A German concentration camp is a correct term, because the Germans were running the show there - although it is impolite to use such a term today, and for this simple reason it shouldn't be used.
Actually in Auschwitz where as usual prisoners themselves were the kapos and other functionaries, they had a joke; that the system was so perfect that the prisoners would have run the camp as efficiently and brutally themselves - the SS-men were totally spurious there.
history1 wrote:Or to give you another example: The USHMM claimed in on of their posts that the photo shows forced laborers in a sewing workshop in the Litzmannstadt ghetto. I asked who was forced to work there exactly because as I know from numerous scientific publications and original documents (letters, cards) most people there wished to have a wrok place to have an income and to be able to buy overprized food but also because in the workshops an additionaly bowl of soup was delivered to every worker! They also claimed that my informations are incorrect
Uninformed ignorants.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by Peter K » 12 Mar 2016 17:19

So they are assuming that on average 1 Righteous Gentile = 1 Jew receiving help ???

I very much doubt it considering that some of them were helping hundreds of Jews.

This also applies to collaborators - one collaborator was harming multiple Jews.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by wm » 12 Mar 2016 17:27

A nice hate piece written by some limousine virtue-signalling ignorant.

Actually lots of people offered some help in non-threatening circumstances, with food or in some other way.
But most weren't keen on hosting a man/woman or a family for 3 years, living with them in one place, supporting them - and getting killed for this.
Let's not kid ourselves. Most likely we won't do this too if the need arises.

For most people it wasn't even possible, they didn't have the means to do it.
Last edited by wm on 12 Mar 2016 17:38, edited 1 time in total.

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