Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by Peter K » 12 Mar 2016 17:32

That website is simply "creative maths". They assume that 6400 Poles saved 6400 Jews (or 0,21% of Polish Jews).

However, this is simply total nonsense. For example Henryk Sławik alone (= one Polish person) saved 5000 Jews.

And what about the remaining 6399 Poles? Even if each of them saved 1 Jew, the total is over 11,399 - not 6400.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by history1 » 12 Mar 2016 17:58

wm wrote:[...] like his wholesale arrogant condemnation of the Poles for sounding the early alarm on the catastrophic Muslim flood[...]
It maybe not the matter here but about which catastrophic Muslim flood you´re talking about? Sounds like the hate speech of Poles on Facebook and then the " Dziennik Bałtycki (= Baltic Newspaper) shares a link to the wanted persons list by the Polish police. And which wonder, 80% Poles, 15 Ukrainians and other ex-soviet countries and 5 % from former yugoslavia and the rest of Europe, but no Syrians, Iraqies, or from other countries fof Arabic speaking countries.

In my eyes the acting of Poland resp. of Polish citizens is a shame. Tens of thousands ran away during the 80s from Poland as economic migrants living now all over the world (Australia, Canada, Austria, Germany, USA, UK) and even nowadays the are going into other countries (eg. Norway, UK) for work. But helping others? No way.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by wm » 12 Mar 2016 18:00

Peter K wrote:That website is simply "creative maths". They assume that 6400 Poles saved 6400 Jews (or 0,21% of Polish Jews).

However, this is simply total nonsense. For example Henryk Sławik alone (= one Polish person) saved 5000 Jews.

And what about the remaining 6399 Poles? Even if each of them saved 1 Jew, the total is over 11,399 - not 6400.
It was estimated by members of Żegota that saving a single Jew required efforts of a few dozens of people and a considerable sum of money.
And really comparing Poland with Belgium or France is offensive by the sheer ignorance demonstrated - the circumstances were so different on so many levels.

No to mention it can be argued that the French collaborationist government helped in Holocaust, and actual Belgian organizations like Volksverwering, VNV and Algemeene-SS Vlaanderen helped too.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by David Thompson » 12 Mar 2016 18:11

history1 --Since this is an apolitical forum, comments about current politics, such as Muslim immigration to Europe, are unwelcome.

Everyone -- AHF is aggressively disinterested in anti-national bigotry. Avoid it.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by wm » 12 Mar 2016 18:48

history1 wrote:In my eyes the acting of Poland resp. of Polish citizens is a shame. Tens of thousands ran away during the 80s from Poland as economic migrants living now all over the world (Australia, Canada, Austria, Germany, USA, UK) and even nowadays the are going into other countries (eg. Norway, UK) for work. But helping others? No way.
Actually in the eighties a million of people were forced to leave the socialist paradise called PRL.
The Poles feel emotions deeply and intensely as any other people, simply they prefer forms of help dictated by reason, not by feelings. It's better this way - for both sides.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by history1 » 12 Mar 2016 19:08

Peter K wrote:
history1 wrote:Poland was the biggest country then with the most inhabitants (~ 35 millions) in Europe
According to Polish "Little Statistical Yearbook" ("LSY") 1938 edition, Poland had ~34,5 million people. However - assuming that percentages of ethnic and religious groups did not change since the census of 1931 - only ~22,0 million of them were Roman Catholic ethnic Poles and another ~1,4 million were Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Protestant and other Non-Jewish Poles, according to census data.
If someone did live in Poland then, hold Polish citizenship, might he/she belong to whichever minority, is a Pole. It´s not of interest either if he was of roman catholic, protestant or orthodox faith. Laws of the occupying German forces were for all valid, not only for catholics or protestans.
Peter K wrote: Note, that "Righteous Gentiles" who were citizens of Poland but ethnically - for example - Ukrainian, are counted among 2544 Ukrainian "Righteous Gentiles", not among 6620 Polish ones. Ukraine did not exist as a nation-state back then, but was divided between the USSR and Poland:
Your source please? BTW, what`s with the Righteous from German parts of the nowadays Poland, if there are any? I doubt that Righteous from Silesia, Eastern Prussia, Reichsgau Danzig-West Prussia are counted to the ones from Germany.
The Auschwitz Memorial also explains on their FB-page that the city Auschwitz and it´s surroundings was located in Germany during the existence of the concentration camp. But curiosly the people helping in any way mentioned in their publication "People of good will" are considered Poles, though they did live in Germany.
Peter K wrote: Poland was also not "the biggest country with the most inhabitants". Here is the data from "LSY" of 1938:

USSR ----------------------- 173,0 million
Germany ------------------- 67,2 million
Austria ---------------------- 6,8 million
Free City Danzig ---------- 0,4 million
United Kingdom ---------- 47,1 million
Italy ------------------------- 42,3 million
France --------------------- 41,9 million
Poland --------------------- 34,5 million, of whom 22 million Roman Catholic Poles + up to 1,4 million other Gentile Poles
Spain ----------------------- 24,8 million
Romania ------------------- 19,2 million
Czechoslovakia ---------- 15,2 million
Yugoslavia ---------------- 15,0 million
Hungary -------------------- 8,9 million
Netherlands --------------- 8,5 million
Belgium -------------------- 8,3 million
Portugal ------------------- 7,2 million
Greece --------------------- 6,8 million
Sweden -------------------- 6,3 million
Bulgaria -------------------- 6,2 million
Switzerland --------------- 4,2 million
Denmark ------------------ 3,7 million
Norway -------------------- 2,9 million
Lithuania ------------------ 2,5 million
Latvia ---------------------- 2,0 million
Albania -------------------- 1,1 million
I asked you not to compare apple with peaches.
The half countries from your list belonged to the Axis or were in other way collaborateurs of Nazi Germany (Hungary, France, Italy, Czechoslovakia [more correctly: Sudeten, Portektorat Bohemia and Morawa and Slovakia vs the little rest of Czechoslovakia]) or were not infected by the persecution of Jews (eg. Spain, Portugal). One must also question how people living in the eastern parts of the USSR could have helped Jews? Or in the UK were there was no threat for Jews during WWII? Guess it´s hard to be honored there, almost only possible while serving on the continent.

BTW, Yad Vashem even honored not long time ago an US Army NCO ( Master Sgt. Roddie Edmonds) Quote: " his act of heroism saved the lives of some 200 Jewish American soldiers " End of quote
Source: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/maste ... ws-n504441
My research brought up the result that there were no plans to kill the Jewish US-soldiers or even a hint which can let us assume this. And even the claimed camp commander didn´t exist, even not a man with similar name or another officer from the camp staff or from the higher commands there! Did the responsible highest NCO in the camp not know to whom he talked? I can only wonder about such circumstances or about the justification for the awarding as Righteous, for me rather a "hero" based on current politics as the US is supporting Israel than an award for the saving of Jews.
And the claimed immediate threat of death is also incorrect as western Allies were far better threated like anyone from the USS;by fay better food, enough food, sanitary and medical aids, etc..

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by henryk » 12 Mar 2016 20:12

4thskorpion wrote:
henryk wrote:
4thskorpion wrote:The violence and killings were anti-Jewish. The anti-Jewish disturbances or riots were the result of the spreading of false blood libel accusations against Jews in a dozen Polish towns – Kraków, Kielce, Bytom, Białystok, Bielawa, Częstochowa, Legnica, Otwock, Rzeszów, Sosnowiec, Szczecin, Tarnów as well as many other smaller towns in central Poland.
Per my message Yad Vashem states anti-Jewishishness was not predominant. Why disregard the analysis of this Jewish organization?
Because the target of this Polish violence in the towns listed were Jewish (survivors of the Holocaust) and the reasons for the violence was the ingrained Polish stereotype of "blood libel" against Polish Jews. Rumours of Jewish "blood libel" was all it took for anti-Jewish violence and murder to erupt against Holocaust survivors in post-war Poland.

Recalling Rzeszów June 1945, Militiamen said the murder was definitely doing the Jews who needed the blood of the Catholic child.
Blood libel (also blood accusation) is an accusation that Jews kidnapped and murdered the children of Christians in order to use their blood as part of their religious rituals during Jewish holidays.
USHMM - THE KIELCE POGROM: A BLOOD LIBEL MASSACRE OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS
Yes many Jews, too many, were killed for being Jews. But also many Jews were killed for supporting the Communist Government. Just as there were many ethnic Poles killed for the same reason. The quantitative analysis concludes killing for being Jews was not the predominant reason.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by David Thompson » 12 Mar 2016 20:24

An off-topic post from history1 was removed pursuant to forum rules.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by wm » 12 Mar 2016 20:55

It wasn't really that many. The murder rate of Jews weren't much different from the average murder rate.
There were about 300,000 Jews in Poland at that time, maybe 600 of them were killed. In the same time over (actually much more, but nobody knows how much for sure) 16,000 murders happened.

history1 wrote: I can only wonder about such circumstances or about the justification for the awarding as Righteous,
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Peter K wrote:BTW - like most things, people's attitudes towards the Holocaust during WW2 probably formed a bell curve:
This is actually confirmed by research/estimations done at that time (in 1942) by the AK. In parenthesis the results of the second, independent estimation.

5% (10%) - criminals, scum, dangerous low-life,
25% (25-30%) - potential heroes,
the rest - normal people.

This gives the low-life rate up to 1 per 10.
Last edited by wm on 12 Mar 2016 21:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by Peter K » 12 Mar 2016 21:00

history1 wrote:If someone did live in Poland then, hold Polish citizenship, might he/she belong to whichever minority, is a Pole. It´s not of interest either if he was of roman catholic, protestant or orthodox faith.
In such case you should add about 50% of Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Belarusian "Righteous Gentiles" to Polish ones.

Because probably around 50% of Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Belarusian "Righteous Gentiles" held Polish citizenship.

If we do this mathematical operation, the total number of Polish citizens "Righteous Gentiles" increases to 8646:

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/statistics.asp
history1 wrote:I doubt that Righteous from Silesia, Eastern Prussia, Reichsgau Danzig-West Prussia are counted to the ones from Germany.
Of course they are, provided that they were ethnically German (lands that you mentioned were ethnically mixed).
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by 4thskorpion » 13 Mar 2016 09:25

Peter K wrote:
4thskorpion wrote:
wm wrote:As to blood libel people in the most advanced countries believe in such things today, in this regard nothing has changed at all.

Of all the most preposterous things written in your last post this just about tops the lot and is really not worth commenting further.
What about Dr. David Duke PhD., though? :lol: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke

I think he probably believes in blood libel (at least for sure he does believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion).

And he lives in perhaps the most advanced country on Earth - the USA.

Peter you write: "I think he probably believes in blood libel (at least for sure he does believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion""

"I think he probably believes...." is pure speculation on your part. And as for "(at least for sure he does believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion" if we are mentioning reprehensible people with anti-Jewish views then so we must mention the current Minister of Defense in the PiS ruling party of the present Polish government who also believes the "Protocols" are real, so what does that say about Poland?
Last edited by 4thskorpion on 13 Mar 2016 09:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by 4thskorpion » 13 Mar 2016 09:31

henryk wrote:
4thskorpion wrote:
henryk wrote:
4thskorpion wrote:The violence and killings were anti-Jewish. The anti-Jewish disturbances or riots were the result of the spreading of false blood libel accusations against Jews in a dozen Polish towns – Kraków, Kielce, Bytom, Białystok, Bielawa, Częstochowa, Legnica, Otwock, Rzeszów, Sosnowiec, Szczecin, Tarnów as well as many other smaller towns in central Poland.
Per my message Yad Vashem states anti-Jewishishness was not predominant. Why disregard the analysis of this Jewish organization?
Because the target of this Polish violence in the towns listed were Jewish (survivors of the Holocaust) and the reasons for the violence was the ingrained Polish stereotype of "blood libel" against Polish Jews. Rumours of Jewish "blood libel" was all it took for anti-Jewish violence and murder to erupt against Holocaust survivors in post-war Poland.

Recalling Rzeszów June 1945, Militiamen said the murder was definitely doing the Jews who needed the blood of the Catholic child.
Blood libel (also blood accusation) is an accusation that Jews kidnapped and murdered the children of Christians in order to use their blood as part of their religious rituals during Jewish holidays.
USHMM - THE KIELCE POGROM: A BLOOD LIBEL MASSACRE OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS
Yes many Jews, too many, were killed for being Jews. But also many Jews were killed for supporting the Communist Government. Just as there were many ethnic Poles killed for the same reason. The quantitative analysis concludes killing for being Jews was not the predominant reason.
This is not true either. apart form the "blood libel" killings and riots, those many Jews you refer to were often simply murdered because of the Polish ethno-nationalist belief in the myth of "Żydokomuna" mirroring the Nazi propaganda of "Judeo-Bolshevism" in that all Jews were communist and all communists were Jews.
Last edited by 4thskorpion on 13 Mar 2016 09:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by 4thskorpion » 13 Mar 2016 09:49

Peter K wrote:That website is simply "creative maths". They assume that 6400 Poles saved 6400 Jews (or 0,21% of Polish Jews).

However, this is simply total nonsense. For example Henryk Sławik alone (= one Polish person) saved 5000 Jews.

And what about the remaining 6399 Poles? Even if each of them saved 1 Jew, the total is over 11,399 - not 6400.
If that one person who saved 5,000 Jews was Irena Krzyżanowska then IMO she deserves sainthood for her shining individual example of "Righteousness" but that Polish governments have pursued a campaign of propagandising hers and the other circa 6500 "Righteous" as the "Righteousness" of all Poland is a flagrant distortion of the truth.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by wm » 13 Mar 2016 12:03

And what's wrong with righteousness of all Poland? Poland is represented by her institutions and her culture, not by her criminals. As Piłsudski was fond of saying: The Poles are shit, but Poland is great...

Peter K wrote:If we do this mathematical operation, the total number of Polish citizens "Righteous Gentiles" increases to 8646
They say between 50,000 and 100,000 Jews survived in hiding in Poland. Most of them, even the so called "pretty" Jews were helped by someone (or more likely by many people), someone who risked his life doing this - otherwise they simply wouldn't survive.

For example my family was supplying food for some Jew hiding at local cemetery. They certainly risk their lives in the process.
He later disappeared and it's not know if he survived. But the point is - he certainly wouldn't survive without that food.

Their neighbour was hiding "his" Jews in a pigpen, certainly he did more but actually he really risked very little, he was relatively safe because he spoke perfect German and was buddy-buddy with local gendarmes. They wouldn't kill one of their best friends.

There were lots of people who did something and risk their lives, in most cases without this something, however small the Jews wouldn't survive. Survival really depended on lots of small things.
Most of those people aren't recorded anywhere because they died long time ago, didn't care about it, and even weren't allowed to care by the communist regime which constantly was waging cold war on Israel as a stooge of American imperialists.

This can be contrasted for example with Ho Feng-Shan who undoubtedly save a lot of Jews, but risked nothing and even did almost nothing except signing documents, and it seems enjoyed the friendship of beautiful Jewish women in the process (although nothing wrong with that as he was a handsome, worth-the-sin man).

Or even Schindler himself who actually did a lot, but didn't risk anything too (except for his carelessness and excessive public fraternization with the Jews), took money for saving lives, and partially was motivated by his desire to avoid the eastern front.

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Re: Museum of Poland's 'Righteous Gentiles'

Post by henryk » 13 Mar 2016 19:09

4thskorpion wrote:This is not true either. apart form the "blood libel" killings and riots, those many Jews you refer to were often simply murdered because of the Polish ethno-nationalist belief in the myth of "Żydokomuna" mirroring the Nazi propaganda of "Judeo-Bolshevism" in that all Jews were communist and all communists were Jews.
It is clear Jews were over-represented in the Communist Government, particularly at the upper levels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBydokomuna
The Soviet-backed communist government was as harsh towards non-communist Jewish cultural, political and social institutions as they were towards Polish, banning all alternative parties.[58][59] Thousands of Jews returned from exile in the Soviet Union, but as their number decreased with legalized aliyah to Israel, the PZPR members formed a much larger percentage of the remaining Jewish population. Among them were a number of Jewish communists who played a highly visible role in the unpopular communist government and its security apparatus.[60]
Hilary Minc, the third in command in Bolesław Bierut's political triumvirate of Stalinist leaders,[61] became the Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Industry, Industry and Commerce, and the Economic Affairs. He was personally assigned by Stalin first to Industry and than to Transportation ministries of Poland.[62] His wife, Julia, became the Editor-in-Chief of the monopolized Polish Press Agency. Minister Jakub Berman – Stalin's right hand in Poland until 1953 – held the Political propaganda and Ideology portfolios. He was responsible for the largest and most notorious secret police in the history of the People's Republic of Poland, the Ministry of Public Security (UB), employing 33,200 permanent security officers, one for every 800 Polish citizens.[61]
The new government's hostility to the wartime Polish Government in Exile and its World War II underground resistance – accused by the media of being nationalist, reactionary and antisemitic, and persecuted by Berman – further strengthened Żydokomuna sentiment to the point where in the popular consciousness Jewish Bolshevism was seen as having conquered Poland.[60] It was in this context, reinforced by the immediate post-war lawlessness, that Poland experienced an unprecedented wave of anti-Jewish violence (of which most notable was the Kielce pogrom).[63]
The Polish-American historian Marek Jan Chodakiewicz stressed that after the Soviet takeover of Poland in 1945 violence had developed amid postwar retribution and counter-retribution, exacerbated by the breakdown of law and order and a Polish anti-Communist insurgency.[64] According to Chodakiewicz, some Jewish "avengers" endeavored to extract justice from the Poles who harmed Jews during the War and in some cases Jews attempted to reclaim property confiscated by the Nazis. These phenomena further reinforced Żydokomuna sentiment. Chodakiewicz noted that after World War II, the Jews were not only victims, but also aggressors. He describes cases in which Jews cooperated with the Polish secret police, denouncing Poles and members of the Home Army. Chodakiewicz noted that some 3,500 to 6,500 Poles died in late 1940s because of Jewish denunciations or were killed by Jews themselves.[65] Encouraged by their Soviet advisors, many Jewish functionaries and government officials adopted new Polish-sounding names hoping to find less acrimony among their adversaries. "This practice often backfired and led to widespread speculation about 'hidden Jews' for decades to come."[66]
The combination of the effects of the Holocaust and postwar antisemitism led to a dramatic mass emigration of Polish Jewry in the immediate postwar years. Of the estimated 240,000 Jews in Poland in 1946 (of whom 136,000 were refugees from the Soviet Union, most on their way to the West), only 90,000 remained a year later.[67][68] The surviving Jews of Poland found themselves victims of the explosive postwar political situation. The image of the Jew as a threatening outsider took on a new form as antisemitism was now linked to the imposition of communist rule in Poland, including rumors of massive collaboration of Jews with the unpopular new regime and the Soviet Union. Of the fewer than 80,000 Jews who remained in Poland, many had political reasons for doing so. Consequently – as noted by historian Michael C. Steinlauf – "their group profile ever more closely resembled the Żydokomuna."[69][70] Regarding this period, Andre Gerrits wrote in his study of Żydokomuna, that even though for the first time in history they had entered the top echelons of power in considerable numbers, "The first post-war decade was a mixed experience for the Jews of East Central Europe. The new communist order offered unprecedented opportunities as well as unforeseen dangers."[71]
Stalinist abuses[edit]
During Stalinism, the preferred Soviet policy was to keep sensitive posts in the hands of non-Poles. As a result "all or nearly all of the directors (of the widely despised Ministry of Public Security of Poland) were Jewish" as noted by Polish journalist Teresa Torańska among others.[72][73] A recent study by the Polish Institute of National Remembrance showed that out of 450 people in director positions in the Ministry between 1944 and 1954, 167 (37.1%) were of Jewish ethnicity, while Jews made up only 1% of the post-war Polish population.[31] While Jews were overrepresented in various Polish communist organizations, including the security apparatus, relative to their percentage of the general population, the vast majority of Jews did not participate in the Stalinist apparatus, and indeed most were not supportive of communism.[47] Krzysztof Szwagrzyk has quoted Jan T. Gross, who argued that many Jews who worked for the communist party cut their ties with their culture – Jewish, Polish or Russian – and tried to represent the interests of international communism only, or at least that of the local communist government.[31] [color]
It is difficult to assess when the Polish Jews who had volunteered to serve or remain in the postwar communist security forces began to realize, however, what Soviet Jews had realized earlier, that under Stalin, as Arkady Vaksberg put it: "if someone named Rabinovich was in charge of a mass execution, he was perceived not simply as a Cheka boss but as a Jew..." [74]
Among the notable Jewish officials of the Polish secret police and security services were Minister Jakub Berman, Joseph Stalin's right hand in the PRL; Vice-minister Roman Romkowski (head of MBP), Dir. Julia Brystiger (5th Dept.), Dir. Anatol Fejgin (10th Dept. or the notorious Special Bureau), deputy Dir. Józef Światło (10th Dept.), Col. Józef Różański among others. Światło – "a torture master" – defected to the West in 1953,[74] while Romkowski and Różański would find themselves among the Jewish scapegoats for Polish Stalinism in the political upheavals following Stalin's death, both sentenced to 15 years in prison on 11 November 1957 for gross violations of human rights law and abuse of power.
[74][75][76]

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