Indian Legion/Waffen SS Units and rapes

[antwony]

[Split from "Indian Legion/Waffen SS Units embedding with other Waffen SS Units in France 1944-1945"]

Would be greatful if anyone could confirm that the indian foreign legion units in France and Holland in 1944 were embeded with existing German SS units before/after the D-Day invasion and if they fought actively in anti-tank combat actions and infantry missions please.

Where on earth did you hear that? As far as I'm aware they were used as construction workers on the southern part of France's Atlantic coast and in the Netherlands. The only combat they saw was against belligerent French woman who didn't appreciated getting gang raped and French civilians trying to defend their property as they raped and pillaged their way back to Germany after the Allies had landed in other sectors.

They were proper SS. Approximately 100, of the the several thousand volunteers, were used on combat operations against partisans in Italy. Aren't sure what the ones in Italy got up to. But the main force's war crimes in France and the Netherlands have been researched.

How they weren't all executed after the war is one of the most shameful black marks on Britain's colonial history.

[George Lepre]

Hi Antwony -

Do you know of source materials for the rape cases?

George

[antwony]

Hi Antwony -

Do you know of source materials for the rape cases?

George

My source was the BBC... which isn't the best. Wiki, another solid source, refers to Lormier "La poche du Médoc" (pp. 35-36) and "Le passage des Hindous dans le département de l'Indre (fin août 1944)"https://web.archive.org/web/20120403001 ... indou.html


Page 245 in the book "India shall be free" has some statements from the Resistance, presumably translations, concerning the Indian's sex crimes.

https://books.google.fi/books?id=_ACwkS ... ce&f=false

[hoot72]

[Split from "Indian Legion/Waffen SS Units embedding with other Waffen SS Units in France 1944-1945"]

Would be greatful if anyone could confirm that the indian foreign legion units in France and Holland in 1944 were embeded with existing German SS units before/after the D-Day invasion and if they fought actively in anti-tank combat actions and infantry missions please.

Where on earth did you hear that? As far as I'm aware they were used as construction workers on the southern part of France's Atlantic coast and in the Netherlands. The only combat they saw was against belligerent French woman who didn't appreciated getting gang raped and French civilians trying to defend their property as they raped and pillaged their way back to Germany after the Allies had landed in other sectors.

They were proper SS. Approximately 100, of the the several thousand volunteers, were used on combat operations against partisans in Italy. Aren't sure what the ones in Italy got up to. But the main force's war crimes in France and the Netherlands have been researched.

How they weren't all executed after the war is one of the most shameful black marks on Britain's colonial history.

The references you quote are biased accounts by french who had absolute hatred not only for the Germans but also all their associates. But to clarify some of the points made:

1) A large number of indian legion soldiers were killed in direct action combat with american units and french resistence before the order was given to begin a retreat back across the Rhine in stages.

2) There were 6 known rapes on record (unofficial) in which all 6 accused with killed by the local populace WITHOUT retribution.

3) A number of legion soldiers worked with the french resistence and others surrendered to the french resistence waiting for the americans to catch up and to surrender to as POW's.

Others continued combat operations with german units on the retreat.

4) You refer to an article that cannot even understand that Sikhs and Muslims are NOT Hindu and Hindu's are not Sikhs nor Muslims. How can anyone even touch an article that cannot even separate one from the other to begin with?

5) The indians were moved in large part from Holland to France due to illness and their problems with the cold and winter conditions in Holland to slightly warmer conditions on the South of France. This is historically documented and there is even a documentary that talks specifically about this.

6) The indian legions had a stellar reputation in Holland with the local dutch community. Many actually barter traded with the local community for fresh eggs and other foods/vegetables/fruits and in some cases, frequently ate with local families in their homes.

7) It was obvious in interviews with the dutch community that mixed with them the indian legions were "not german" in their brutality and attitude and were more like "refugees who wanted to go home." Most were home sick and were perfectly willing to exchange information on the war situation with the community as well as to turn a blind eye to illegal radio's being kept by local families.

Thank you.

[antwony]

The references you quote are biased accounts by french who had absolute hatred not only for the Germans but also all their associates. But to clarify some of the points made:

Seems a bit extreme to claim you were raped by Indians due to your hatred of Germans, not to mention burning down your own house or killing yourself and blaming it on Indians. But, if that's what you want to believe good luck with that

1) A large number of indian legion soldiers were killed in direct action combat with american units and french resistence before the order was given to begin a retreat back across the Rhine in stages.

BS. You got any evidence that they didn't pull out of Bordeaux, for Germany, as soon as the landings in the Riviera happened?

That some of them were killed as they travelled across France, sure. That some of them, presumably the particularly slow ones, got engaged by regular soldiers also seems to have historical evidence.

But before the order was given...

2) There were 6 known rapes on record (unofficial) in which all 6 accused with killed by the local populace WITHOUT retribution.

Ahh... an "unofficial" record. So, I suppose there's no evidence for that either, nor for your claim that the rapists were killed by locals.

Have pasted a entry from the document I linked to, that you didn't like, that is recorded in the official archive. Was only one of the many warcrimes mentioned in that document

Presque toutes les femmes de ce tout petit bourg (une dizaine au moins) ont été violentées dans des conditions

particulièrement odieuses et quel que soit leur âge.

(trans.) Almost all the women in this tiny town (at least ten) have been abused in particularly heinous conditions and irrespective of their age.

3) A number of legion soldiers worked with the french resistence and others surrendered to the french resistence waiting for the americans to catch up and to surrender to as POW's.

Sure, why not. They'd already changed sides once before.

Others continued combat operations with german units on the retreat.

By "combat" operations you mean raping and looting, right? Are you trying to besmirch the otherwise spotless reputation of France's Nazi Germany occupiers by associating them with Indian sex criminals?

4) You refer to an article that cannot even understand that Sikhs and Muslims are NOT Hindu and Hindu's are not Sikhs nor Muslims. How can anyone even touch an article that cannot even separate one from the other to begin with?

Parlez-vous français? Hindou can mean Indian in French. Anyway, it was explained right there in the third paragraph of the introduction

Certains légionnaires étaient hindous, d'autres sikhs ou musulmans

[hoot72]

The references you quote are biased accounts by french who had absolute hatred not only for the Germans but also all their associates. But to clarify some of the points made:

Seems a bit extreme to claim you were raped by Indians due to your hatred of Germans, not to mention burning down your own house or killing yourself and blaming it on Indians. But, if that's what you want to believe good luck with that

1) A large number of indian legion soldiers were killed in direct action combat with american units and french resistence before the order was given to begin a retreat back across the Rhine in stages.

BS. You got any evidence that they didn't pull out of Bordeaux, for Germany, as soon as the landings in the Riviera happened?

That some of them were killed as they travelled across France, sure. That some of them, presumably the particularly slow ones, got engaged by regular soldiers also seems to have historical evidence.

But before the order was given...

2) There were 6 known rapes on record (unofficial) in which all 6 accused with killed by the local populace WITHOUT retribution.

Ahh... an "unofficial" record. So, I suppose there's no evidence for that either, nor for your claim that the rapists were killed by locals.

Have pasted a entry from the document I linked to, that you didn't like, that is recorded in the official archive. Was only one of the many warcrimes mentioned in that document

Presque toutes les femmes de ce tout petit bourg (une dizaine au moins) ont été violentées dans des conditions

particulièrement odieuses et quel que soit leur âge.

(trans.) Almost all the women in this tiny town (at least ten) have been abused in particularly heinous conditions and irrespective of their age.

3) A number of legion soldiers worked with the french resistence and others surrendered to the french resistence waiting for the americans to catch up and to surrender to as POW's.

Sure, why not. They'd already changed sides once before.

Others continued combat operations with german units on the retreat.

By "combat" operations you mean raping and looting, right? Are you trying to besmirch the otherwise spotless reputation of France's Nazi Germany occupiers by associating them with Indian sex criminals?

4) You refer to an article that cannot even understand that Sikhs and Muslims are NOT Hindu and Hindu's are not Sikhs nor Muslims. How can anyone even touch an article that cannot even separate one from the other to begin with?

Parlez-vous français? Hindou can mean Indian in French. Anyway, it was explained right there in the third paragraph of the introduction

Certains légionnaires étaient hindous, d'autres sikhs ou musulmans

Some very good historical books you might consider investing in to get a clearer picture and to improve your knowledge and understanding of
the indian legion and their operations in Germany,France and Holland which covers why they were formed, the politics of the formation of the legion, the aryan race and indians, uniforms and equipment of the indian legion over the 3 year period from their formation in Germany till their surrender in Italy, France and Germany as well as historical combat action reports and KIA/losses in France, Italy and Germany.

1. For Free India-Martin Bamber
2. Foreign Volunteers Of Hitler's Germany by Warren W. Odegard
3. Sign of the Tiger: Subhas Chandra Bose and his Indian Legion in Germany, 1941-45
by Rudolf Hartog
4. Subhas Chandra Bose ; His Dream of Free India
by R K Pruthi
5.His Majesty’s Opponent: Subhas Chandra Bose and India’s Struggle against Empire
by Sugata Bose*
*Also known as "His Majesty's Opponent: Subhas Chandra Bose and India's struggle against the bastards from England
6. India At War: The Subcontinent and the Second World War by Yasmin Khan
7. India's War: World War II and the Making of Modern South Asia 1st Edition
by Srinath Raghavan

Hope these books will help you in your quest for more historical and factual knowledge.

I would not put much hope in 1 french report that is clearly biased and does not tell a true account or give a true picture of what actually transpired.

Thank you and remember, put that German Panzer Uniform on tonight.

[antwony]

I see you've edited your post within the last couple of hours to take back the race card you played and you're no longer accusing me of being an ethnocentric racist.

You still haven't shown any evidence that the Indian Legion were embedded with any German infantry units, saw any combat, or specialised in panzerknackering as your initial post implied.

The Indian Legion's European activities could be described as;

A minority conducted anti- partisan operations.

During their retreat, there were some encounter engagements with the most advanced elements of the Allied armies when the Indians may have done some actual soldiering.

A swath of wanton destruction and war crimes across Central France.

Some very good historical books you might consider investing in to get a clearer picture and to improve your knowledge and understanding of the indian legion and their operations in Germany,France and Holland which covers why they were formed, the politics of the formation of the legion, the aryan race and indians, uniforms and equipment of the indian legion over the 3 year period from their formation in Germany till their surrender in Italy, France and Germany as well as historical combat action reports and KIA/losses in France, Italy and Germany.

I'm not reading any Indian book, particularly one written by an Indian nationalist, that mentions the word aryan. Those books and ideas are just too sad and tragic and there's only a certain level of Uncle Tom-ism that I can handle.

Thank you and remember, put that German Panzer Uniform on tonight.

What? Is that meant to be some kind of insult?

[hoot72]

I see you've edited your post within the last couple of hours to take back the race card you played and you're no longer accusing me of being an ethnocentric racist.

You still haven't shown any evidence that the Indian Legion were embedded with any German infantry units, saw any combat, or specialised in panzerknackering as your initial post implied.

The Indian Legion's European activities could be described as;

A minority conducted anti- partisan operations.

During their retreat, there were some encounter engagements with the most advanced elements of the Allied armies when the Indians may have done some actual soldiering.

A swath of wanton destruction and war crimes across Central France.

Some very good historical books you might consider investing in to get a clearer picture and to improve your knowledge and understanding of the indian legion and their operations in Germany,France and Holland which covers why they were formed, the politics of the formation of the legion, the aryan race and indians, uniforms and equipment of the indian legion over the 3 year period from their formation in Germany till their surrender in Italy, France and Germany as well as historical combat action reports and KIA/losses in France, Italy and Germany.

I'm not reading any Indian book, particularly one written by an Indian nationalist, that mentions the word aryan. Those books and ideas are just too sad and tragic and there's only a certain level of Uncle Tom-ism that I can handle.

Thank you and remember, put that German Panzer Uniform on tonight.

What? Is that meant to be some kind of insult?

I do think you have some personal issues against indians and their quest for freedom from colonial British rule that deprived them of freedom, the right to vote, the right to choose and the right to live their lives without paying taxes to a monarchy in England.

You will not, despite being given a host of references invest in the time or money to read information about the indian legion but you want me to put up links and share information with you? Yet you have made your mind up based on 1 BBc report and 1 french report. That's the basis of your "knowledge." Amazing!

Rudolf Hartog is the ONLY reliable author on the subject given he commanded and was with the Indian Legion from the very beginning when the unit was formed. But surely you would have known this if you had any knowledge about the indian legions.

I owe you no apologies except to say thank god the indians kicked you lot out of India when they did.

Thank you.

[antwony]

I do think you have some personal issues against indians and their quest for freedom from colonial British rule that deprived them of freedom, the right to vote, the right to choose and the right to live their lives without paying taxes to a monarchy in England.

I personally think, and we do see to be discussing personal feelings now, the deleted post where you called me a racist was a more effective ad hominem. If I was racist, which I'm not, me disparaging all things Indian would make a bit of sense. How you get the idea that I'm opposed to self- determination and democracy I don't know.

Although, equally, I don't know how you can equate raping French children and old ladies with Indian independence.

You will not, despite being given a host of references invest in the time or money to read information about the indian legion but you want me to put up links and share information with you? Yet you have made your mind up based on 1 BBc report and 1 french report. That's the basis of your "knowledge." Amazing!

Rudolf Hartog is the ONLY reliable author on the subject given he commanded and was with the Indian Legion from the very beginning when the unit was formed. But surely you would have known this if you had any knowledge about the indian legions.

Rape victims testimonies should be ignored because they were anti- German, but the German commander of the rapists is the "ONLY reliable author"... OK

Find it amazing you'd think I'd invest time or money in researching cowardly rapists. I thought I was meant to be some kind of Kipling apologist, shouldn't I be saving up my money to get Zweites Buch? Or is that why you listed the German guy, because us firangi stick together? You're getting mixed up, you didn't just call me a racist, I was meant to be anti- German too

I owe you no apologies except to say thank god the indians kicked you lot out of India when they did.

"My lot" have nothing to do with India. Well, unless you mean white people, in which yes I am white.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Have you ever wondered why those "Indian Generals" you claimed to be in communication with weren't fans of the Indian National Army? Suspect it wasn't just because of Auschwitz, they may have understood some things that clearly you haven't grasped yet.

[hoot72]

Very sorry but I have put you on my ignore list. Feel free to carry on your ranting to someone else. You are neither very mature for someone your age nor someone who is sensible in his discussions with other adults.

Thank you.

[David Thompson]

Gentlemen -- This forum functions as an information exchange, not a bulletin board for posting personal remarks about each other. Stay on topic and keep your posts civil.

[antwony]

Gentlemen -- This forum functions as an information exchange, not a bulletin board for posting personal remarks about each other. Stay on topic and keep your posts civil.

There only gentleman on this thread, and it's not him. I haven't said anything personal.

I've merely pointed his complete lack of evidence to support his assertions and implications. Maybe I've mocked him as, whether it's intentional or not, he's misrepresenting war criminals.

You're a mod, check out his deleted post.

[Ironmachine]

You will not, despite being given a host of references invest in the time or money to read information about the indian legion

As you later said that "Rudolf Hartog is the ONLY reliable author on the subject...", does that means that your "host of references" is really reduced to just one?

I would not put much hope in 1 french report that is clearly biased...

Yes, it is much better to put your hope in a book

*Also known as "His Majesty's Opponent: Subhas Chandra Bose and India's struggle against the bastards from England

that clearly looks like a reliable, unbiased source.

[hoot72]

You will not, despite being given a host of references invest in the time or money to read information about the indian legion

As you later said that "Rudolf Hartog is the ONLY reliable author on the subject...", does that means that your "host of references" is really reduced to just one?

I would not put much hope in 1 french report that is clearly biased...

Yes, it is much better to put your hope in a book

*Also known as "His Majesty's Opponent: Subhas Chandra Bose and India's struggle against the bastards from England

that clearly looks like a reliable, unbiased source.

Yes, Hartog is a most reliable source as he was the man who knew what transpired from start to finish with the Indian Legion as he was there. And his interviews are very very informative.

Yes,than a biased french man with an axe to grind against the occupiers as it was also a means to gain reparations and funding for the village.

Who knows. One book version has been titled for the indian audience with one name (against the bastards from england) vs the actual one that amazon sells with the title (India’s Struggle against Empire).

It's worth a read to understand why the call for independence of India from the British empire began and how it spread.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi hoot72..

You are a relative newcomer to AHF ..so from a veteran around these parts..

I am sure you can hold your own around here and take care of your own debates and fight your own fights

However since we are both co-posters on this thread and we are discussing a subject close to both our hearts...( I see that you are from Singapore..the birthplace of the INA !), I would like to point out a few things to you :

[*] You are entering in heated, personalised arguments against what? In which context? Perhaps you haven't realised that you are NOT facing factual, historical information based arguments. Such things..howsoever heated..can be handled on this forum. But you are up against vicious venom based on minuscule knowledge or concern for history ( I am intentionally not saying 0 knowledge..since that would be an untrue ..hyperbole).

[*] Any degree of knowledge about WWII history ( France, 1944, et al) would have brought here the awareness that ALL or most, Axis forces in the Atlantic Wall were part time "construction workers". Rommel, on his periodic visits to these units used to check the hands of the officers, for scars and calluses, to ascertain whether they were themselves participating hands-on in construction activities !

[*] Any degree of knowledge about the Normandy invasion and its aftermath would have formed the view that the Anglo - American deliverers of "freedom" were themselves accused of rape and sexual violence / crass exploitation post-trauma on numerous occasions. Just as allied (French colonial) troops in Italy terrorised local female folk. On the strength of these incidents no one calls the SHAEF, the Supreme Headquarters of Allied Expeditionary F*****s ..just as nobody calls the "Combined Chiefs of Staff" the Combined Chiefs of Shafters ! All armies in all campaigns in history, when operating overseas, have faced the rape related disciplinary issues. The otherwise decent German occupation of France (Please leave out the anti partisan bit here..not relevant) too had its blemishes in this department. But again that would require knowledge of history to know !

[*]Most military units,, particularly when having to work against time in constructing defences, have engaged in construction work. But the Indian Legion, based on stray incidents of rape in France, have been painted here as oafish coolies, endemic rapists ..without any military value. I don't want to bring up all the combat engagements of the Legion, while retreating, against enemy armour, partisans and regular troops (including, the famous and brutal combat action against US Japanese forces in the southern approaches to the Rhine (viewtopic.php?p=2028323#p2028323).
The proposition is moronic, loutish, ignorant and a sick joke ! Just as is the writing off of Professor (Dr) Sugata Bose of Harvard University as a valid reference source while defending parochial and fanciful internet speculations which feeds common folk prejudices like calling all Indians "Hindoos" ! You will find such brilliant pieces on the net..calling all straight white westerners "Christian crusaders"..or Muslims "terrorists" or Germans "Nazis" ...

My only submission is that please stay away from these provocations and let us have the benefit of your knowledge in these matters.

legion3.jpg (7.35 KiB) Viewed 2077 times

legion 2.jpg (12.72 KiB) Viewed 2077 times

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Some "Construction Coolies" ..in France..in between their sanctioned "Rape Leaves"...
Cheers
Sandeep