Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#136

Post by David Thompson » 17 Jun 2017, 23:51

Two no-content repartee posts from Attrition were removed.

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#137

Post by PF » 17 Jan 2018, 04:00

sadly the majority of Jews were in Cental Europe, Germany Austria, Poland, Hungary, Romania European Russia...right under the grasp of Hitler and his allies...there was only one thing closest to an evcavation of European Jewry in 1938 By Jabotinsky but...
http://www.thetower.org/article/jabotin ... june-1940/


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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#138

Post by wm » 17 Jan 2018, 22:05

Unfortunately that article doesn't prove its premise that he was starting to get real traction in his plan to create a Jewish army in the heart of the Holocaust.
Especially that in 1940 there were no Holocaust, and nobody expected it.

His plan was to reconquer Palestine from within by a Jewish insurgent army led by cadres trained by the Italians (in Civitavecchia) and by the Poles. After expelling the British and the Palestinians, Palestine was to be repopulated with "evacuated" East European Jews.

A "minor" problem was that the East European Jews, being reasonable people didn't want to be evacuated into the wilderness of Palestine (even post-1945 majority of them emigrated to the US, Britain, Canada). They simply wouldn't do it.

His movement and its organizations were modeled on Italian Fascism and its various organizations (generally nothing wrong with it), and at that time they were routinely called by his opponents "Jewish fascists", and he himself "little Hitler".

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#139

Post by Frederickvon » 22 Jan 2018, 06:53

Gorque wrote:The Evian Conference highlighted the undesirability of accepting a nearly penniless minority into the participants nations knowing that these destitute refugees would not only be a drag upon the various nations' social service structures, but would also be competing for scarce jobs while these nations were still suffering from the effects of the Great Depression. And Germany wasn't about to let the Jews emigrate with all their wealth and Germany having a shortage of precious metals, foreign currency as well as the balance of payments problem.

Besides, who in their wildest dreams could foresee what the future held in store for them. In 1938-39, I'm quite certain no one thought it industrialized mass-murder possible.
Indeed, we take for granted with our hindsight of the horrific crimes of the "holocaust" that such a thing is possible, but before the end of the war and the unearthing of such crimes, the sheer extent of which was probably unbelievable to the average lay person. Indeed, such industrialized genocide was not possible before, without such a use of railroads and modern chemicals to perform the ghastly deed.

The "Holocaust" was infact a great achievement, if we look at it purely from the logistical perspective. The organization, during the largest war in human history, of such an organized genocide could only have been done by a very educated group of people. This was not organized by thugs and amateurs -- This horrific crime against humanity was committed by intelligent and calculating leaders. Probably intelligence far beyond average(such was in the case in E.G. Goering) I think that's what makes the "Holocaust" such a particularly scary thing, because it demonstrates what we human beings are capable of.

Now, as far as the Allies' responsibility towards the murdered Jews and other victims of Nazi inhumanity, the guilty parties were in Nazi Germany, it was their guilt. The Allies, whatever can be said about them, did not murder those folks. The Nazis did that. So i feel the blame is limited in any case.

But i do feel that the United States(i'm American) does bear some responsibility. We should have given refuge to those Jews that wished to escape the Third Reich's grasp, particularly the ship that docked upon our shores and was turned away. There was a facebook profile a while back that was posting, every day, the fate of someone aboard that ship. So and so died at such a time in Auschwitz concentration camp, etc. and it had a photograph of the victim. I think it's a legacy that we should keep in mind when we think about refugees from such regimes today.

As a practical matter, there's nothing the western allies could have done to save 4 million Jews... That's unrealistic. Most the Jews didn't come into Nazi grasp until after WW2 was well under way, and at such a point emigration was impossible for European Jews. Could we have diverted much needed resources to bombing the centers of Murder and infrastructure? sure, but it would have made little difference in my view. The Nazis were not above simply shooting them in the nape of the neck, as they had done to so many in the East if necessary. It might have shifted some numbers, but the end result would have been very similar in my view. The Nazis would have simply adapted their methods.

The only way to stop Nazi murder and genocide was to crush the National Socialist regime, and putting blame on anyone but the national socialist regime in Germany and their collaborators/satellites/allies i think diminishes their responsibility and is an insult to the sacrifices many allied nations made in ending Nazi terror. And what of all the non-jews murdered, persecuted or bombed by the Nazis? Don't they deserve saving, too? The Gypsies, Homosexuals and other victims of Nazi Terror?

a very divisive and wrong-headed remark with no basis in historical fact.

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#140

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Jan 2018, 14:08

Hi Fredrickvon,

Leaders are generally from the more intelligent part of the population, so it would not be surprising if the organizers of the so-called "Holocaust" were a bit brighter than normal.

However, the Wannsee Conference indicates that their motivations were ambiguous - some wanted rid of the Jews because they regarded them as inferior, whereas others seem to have regarded them as threat. Given that there were 80 million Germans in the Reich and only 12 million Jews on the whole planet (comparitively few in Germany proper) this latter attitude speaks of a massive inferiority complex amongst some of the perpertators of the genocide.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#141

Post by Attrition » 22 Jan 2018, 14:34

~~~~~Leaders are generally from the more intelligent part of the population~~~~~ (!)

As for the motives, read Tooze.

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#142

Post by wm » 22 Jan 2018, 15:06

Frederickvon wrote:The "Holocaust" was infact a great achievement, if we look at it purely from the logistical perspective.

It really wasn't such an achievement.
Logistically it was very simple:
- round up a group of people, if possible using local or even their own manpower,
- as long as possible deceive everybody that it's a relocation for security reasons (as it was routinely done during the Great War),
- transport them to the nearest death camp,
- kill them as cheaply as possible using the cheapest and primitive method available,
- repeat day after day.

Frederickvon wrote:But i do feel that the United States(i'm American) does bear some responsibility. We should have given refuge to those Jews that wished to escape the Third Reich's grasp, particularly the ship that docked upon our shores and was turned away.

Immigration to the US was always possible, although obviously it was impossible to give refuge to millions of Jews, especially that they weren't at that time threatened physically.
That ship was destined for Cuba not the US, and was full of people without visas, despite that all of them eventually found shelter in Belgium.

Frederickvon wrote:As a practical matter, there's nothing the western allies could have done to save 4 million Jews...

The gassed Jews were of different opinion.
Nr 333
Transcription
3251/5000
LEON FAJNER FOR THE MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL SZMUL ZYGIELBOJMA: CONCLUSION ON JUSTIFICATION
Warsaw, 31 August 1942
TO P. ZYGIELBOJMA
MEMBER OF THE COUNCIL OF NARODOWEJ R.P.
in London

Conclusions:
1. The need for immediate retaliation against German nationals living in the territories of all allied states threatened with immediate further retaliation in the event of the continued slaughter of the Jewish population; To consider this retaliatory act as an act of non-political but strategic action, because what the German authorities do with the Jewish population is war, sui generis war in which one side - the Nazi band - is armed from head to toe and the other - the Jewish population, was perfidiously and finally disarmed, completely disarmed and helpless, and became the object of unprecedented, cruel and insidious warfare under the banner of Hitler. Jewish society as one of the minor members of the great allied family has the right to demand from the rest of the allies immediate and effective assistance in this uneven war.
[...]
[and] the Soviet Union, which has a large number of German military and civilian prisoners of war. Tell the German society exactly and the facts of the slaughter.

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#143

Post by Sheldrake » 22 Jan 2018, 16:22

Frederickvon wrote: The "Holocaust" was infact a great achievement, if we look at it purely from the logistical perspective. The organization, during the largest war in human history, of such an organized genocide could only have been done by a very educated group of people. This was not organized by thugs and amateurs -- This horrific crime against humanity was committed by intelligent and calculating leaders. Probably intelligence far beyond average(such was in the case in E.G. Goering) I think that's what makes the "Holocaust" such a particularly scary thing, because it demonstrates what we human beings are capable of.

......The only way to stop Nazi murder and genocide was to crush the National Socialist regime, and putting blame on anyone but the national socialist regime in Germany and their collaborators/satellites/allies i think diminishes their responsibility and is an insult to the sacrifices many allied nations made in ending Nazi terror. And what of all the non-jews murdered, persecuted or bombed by the Nazis? Don't they deserve saving, too? The Gypsies, Homosexuals and other victims of Nazi Terror?

a very divisive and wrong-headed remark with no basis in historical fact.
Although I broadly agree with the thrust of your argument I feel uncomfortable with any use of the term "great achievement" to describe the holocaust. Even accepting that we can use the words "great" to mean something bad as in Insert name {Alexander, Napoleon, Hitler.... Stalin} large scale mass killing wasn't a uniquely Nazi achievement, even in the Second World War. The Japanese perpetrated mass executions of ethic Chinese, often by bayonet and often preceded by rape. In North china alone some 2.7 million civilians died from the Three Alls policy: "kill all, loot all, burn all." Around 20 million Chinese civilians died give or take a million or two. We had a Malay-Chinese family friend who survived the Japanese occupation in Dec 1941. She hid in the fields. Her classmates took shelter in a convent school flying a Red cross and were all killed. The logistic achievement is over rated. Post WW2 the Rwandan Hutu managed to kill some 500,000 -1,000,000, out of a population of C 10 million in one hundred days mostly with kitchenware or garden tools.

Admittedly, it was more common for populations to suffer from neglect than to waste bullets. ins of omission rather than commission eople to die The civilian population of Eastern Europe suffered from starvation as well as repeated ethic cleansing in the wake of German and Soviet occupations. A high proportion of soviet, and German PW did not survive capture. The upper estimates of the PW who died are around 4.5 millions - a similar order of magnitude. The Bengal famine falls into this category. The allies found themselves unable to prevent millions under their own rule from dying. At what point would it have been likely that they would have dropped everything to help to prevent the holocaust.

There is nothing unfamiliar about the justification for turning refugees away in the 1930. Unless you had a crystal ball, who would not understand the motives for turning back refugees. It was fear, xenophobia and religious discrimination that the refugees were economic migrants over here taking jobs or living on welfare, diluting culture with their alien ways and religion. These were people from sh1thole countries.

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#144

Post by Frederickvon » 22 Jan 2018, 21:57

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Fredrickvon,

Leaders are generally from the more intelligent part of the population, so it would not be surprising if the organizers of the so-called "Holocaust" were a bit brighter than normal.

However, the Wannsee Conference indicates that their motivations were ambiguous - some wanted rid of the Jews because they regarded them as inferior, whereas others seem to have regarded them as threat. Given that there were 80 million Germans in the Reich and only 12 million Jews on the whole planet (comparitively few in Germany proper) this latter attitude speaks of a massive inferiority complex amongst some of the perpertators of the genocide.

Cheers,

Sid.
I appreciate your response, i don't know about the whole 'inferiority complex' thing, i think that is a dangerous underestimation of the power of Nazi propaganda. Some of these men were psychologically normative, infact Himmler himself threw up when attending an execution -- a normal human reaction. These were not psychopaths, many of the perpetrators were normal individuals. That's a particularly disturbing thought, isn't it?

As far as the motives, i don't think the Wannsee conference is a good indicator of why the Holocaust was perpetrated. the decision had already been made by that point, and the Wannsee conference was merely a bringing together and organizing of the decision.
wm wrote:
Frederickvon wrote:The "Holocaust" was infact a great achievement, if we look at it purely from the logistical perspective.

It really wasn't such an achievement.
Logistically it was very simple:
- round up a group of people, if possible using local or even their own manpower,
- as long as possible deceive everybody that it's a relocation for security reasons (as it was routinely done during the Great War),
- transport them to the nearest death camp,
- kill them as cheaply as possible using the cheapest and primitive method available,
- repeat day after day.

Frederickvon wrote:But i do feel that the United States(i'm American) does bear some responsibility. We should have given refuge to those Jews that wished to escape the Third Reich's grasp, particularly the ship that docked upon our shores and was turned away.

Immigration to the US was always possible, although obviously it was impossible to give refuge to millions of Jews, especially that they weren't at that time threatened physically.
That ship was destined for Cuba not the US, and was full of people without visas, despite that all of them eventually found shelter in Belgium.

Frederickvon wrote:As a practical matter, there's nothing the western allies could have done to save 4 million Jews...

The gassed Jews were of different opinion.
Nr 333
Transcription
3251/5000
LEON FAJNER FOR THE MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL SZMUL ZYGIELBOJMA: CONCLUSION ON JUSTIFICATION
Warsaw, 31 August 1942
TO P. ZYGIELBOJMA
MEMBER OF THE COUNCIL OF NARODOWEJ R.P.
in London

Conclusions:
1. The need for immediate retaliation against German nationals living in the territories of all allied states threatened with immediate further retaliation in the event of the continued slaughter of the Jewish population; To consider this retaliatory act as an act of non-political but strategic action, because what the German authorities do with the Jewish population is war, sui generis war in which one side - the Nazi band - is armed from head to toe and the other - the Jewish population, was perfidiously and finally disarmed, completely disarmed and helpless, and became the object of unprecedented, cruel and insidious warfare under the banner of Hitler. Jewish society as one of the minor members of the great allied family has the right to demand from the rest of the allies immediate and effective assistance in this uneven war.
[...]
[and] the Soviet Union, which has a large number of German military and civilian prisoners of war. Tell the German society exactly and the facts of the slaughter.
1. As far as it being simple, i disagree. In theory, simple. In reality, it took a lot of organizing between every level of German society. from the banks to the reichsbahn, it had to be organized companies such as IG farben to produce odorless poisons, the crematoria had to be constructed -- i think Auschwitz was actually the collimation of the Final Solution. The number of people actually running the camp was only a few thousand, and they were able to exterminate millions in a methodical manner. moving millions of people against their will, across thousands of miles of territory and confiscating their valuables and goods...a very methodical problem. It certainly was a logistical achievment that millions were exterminated in a few years.

2. Of course the gassed Jews have a different opinion, they were quite biased(understandably.)

I don't think genocide or racial attacks on german nationals would have changed Nazi opinion at all. It would have only provoked Hitler to a more extreme response against the Jews, and made nice Propaganda for the regime. So we replace the Jewish Holocaust with a German one, and that's going to solve the whole problem?

In any case, very few German military prisoners escaped Soviet captivity anyway. Millions died in Soviet captivity, and german nationals were rounded up and expulsed, raped, murdered and pillaged in the wake of the Soviet advance. What else could the soviets do? Any organized program against the German nationals would only serve to stiffen resistance.

Is there a suggestion that such behaviour should be extended to the Western Allies against people on the mere basis of their race and nationality? that's just as wrong as what the Nazis were doing, and would only exacerbate the tragedy at the expense of allied morality. It would be sheer cowardice.

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#145

Post by Frederickvon » 22 Jan 2018, 22:01

Sheldrake wrote:
Frederickvon wrote: The "Holocaust" was infact a great achievement, if we look at it purely from the logistical perspective. The organization, during the largest war in human history, of such an organized genocide could only have been done by a very educated group of people. This was not organized by thugs and amateurs -- This horrific crime against humanity was committed by intelligent and calculating leaders. Probably intelligence far beyond average(such was in the case in E.G. Goering) I think that's what makes the "Holocaust" such a particularly scary thing, because it demonstrates what we human beings are capable of.

......The only way to stop Nazi murder and genocide was to crush the National Socialist regime, and putting blame on anyone but the national socialist regime in Germany and their collaborators/satellites/allies i think diminishes their responsibility and is an insult to the sacrifices many allied nations made in ending Nazi terror. And what of all the non-jews murdered, persecuted or bombed by the Nazis? Don't they deserve saving, too? The Gypsies, Homosexuals and other victims of Nazi Terror?

a very divisive and wrong-headed remark with no basis in historical fact.
Although I broadly agree with the thrust of your argument I feel uncomfortable with any use of the term "great achievement" to describe the holocaust. Even accepting that we can use the words "great" to mean something bad as in Insert name {Alexander, Napoleon, Hitler.... Stalin} large scale mass killing wasn't a uniquely Nazi achievement, even in the Second World War. The Japanese perpetrated mass executions of ethic Chinese, often by bayonet and often preceded by rape. In North china alone some 2.7 million civilians died from the Three Alls policy: "kill all, loot all, burn all." Around 20 million Chinese civilians died give or take a million or two. We had a Malay-Chinese family friend who survived the Japanese occupation in Dec 1941. She hid in the fields. Her classmates took shelter in a convent school flying a Red cross and were all killed. The logistic achievement is over rated. Post WW2 the Rwandan Hutu managed to kill some 500,000 -1,000,000, out of a population of C 10 million in one hundred days mostly with kitchenware or garden tools.

Admittedly, it was more common for populations to suffer from neglect than to waste bullets. ins of omission rather than commission eople to die The civilian population of Eastern Europe suffered from starvation as well as repeated ethic cleansing in the wake of German and Soviet occupations. A high proportion of soviet, and German PW did not survive capture. The upper estimates of the PW who died are around 4.5 millions - a similar order of magnitude. The Bengal famine falls into this category. The allies found themselves unable to prevent millions under their own rule from dying. At what point would it have been likely that they would have dropped everything to help to prevent the holocaust.

There is nothing unfamiliar about the justification for turning refugees away in the 1930. Unless you had a crystal ball, who would not understand the motives for turning back refugees. It was fear, xenophobia and religious discrimination that the refugees were economic migrants over here taking jobs or living on welfare, diluting culture with their alien ways and religion. These were people from sh1thole countries.
I appreciate your response.

I think it would be more similar to turning away Tutsis than central american migrants. The Tutsis were actually discriminated because of their race/origin, whereas most 'refugees' that reach American shores are not fleeing war or genocide, but are instead fleeing bleak economic conditions. Which, while i admit sucks, is not being a 'refugee'. It's being an economic migrant. completely different.

I think what makes the Holocaust unique was how it targeted a specific group of people with genocide on an industrial scale -- it's one thing to simply neglect people or haphazardly cause their deaths, it's another to organize and perpetrate it in such a manner as the Nazis.

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#146

Post by wm » 23 Jan 2018, 01:43

Frederickvon wrote:1. As far as it being simple, i disagree. In theory, simple. In reality, it took a lot of organizing between every level of German society. from the banks to the reichsbahn, it had to be organized companies such as IG farben to produce odorless poisons, the crematoria had to be constructed -- i think Auschwitz was actually the collimation of the Final Solution. The number of people actually running the camp was only a few thousand, and they were able to exterminate millions in a methodical manner.
The majority of the Eastern Jews never were in any bank, or maybe didn't even see one.
Anyway all of them voluntarily declared their wealth, property, banks accounts a few years before the Holocaust. So it wasn't a problem, the Nazis had everything on record.

It was basically a few dozen Germans on one end managing the round-ups, several guards on the train (and a few trains per day), and a dozen or so Germans on the other end overseeing the gasing. There were death camps where less than twenty Germans murdered almost a million Jews.
In the grand scheme of things, in comparison with the Western Front the Holocaust was simply invisible.

An odorless poison was the usual poison minus the warning agent. The poison was odorless naturally.

Frederickvon wrote:I don't think genocide or racial attacks on german nationals would have changed Nazi opinion at all.
It's not genocide it's called reprisals, an old and honored military custom, morally nothing wrong with it.
And yes, the threat of reprisals stopped Nazis mass executions once, in Warsaw during the 1944 Warsaw Uprising.

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#147

Post by michael mills » 23 Jan 2018, 03:19

But i do feel that the United States(i'm American) does bear some responsibility. We should have given refuge to those Jews that wished to escape the Third Reich's grasp,
Hitler was of the same opinion. In his well-known speech of 30 January 1939, he chided the United States in sarcastic terms for complaining about the German treatment of its Jewish population while refusing to allow German Jews to immigrate.

By the way, the Soviet Union could be equally blamed. In early 1940 Eichmann's office on two occasions asked the Soviet immigration authorities to agree to the transfer into Soviet territory of all the Jews living in the German Zone of Occupation in Poland, under the population transfer agreement that formed part of the Borders and Friendship Treaty of 28 September 1939. However, the Soviet authorities refused on the basis that the transfer agreement applied only to ethnic Ukrainians and Belarusians, not to ethnic Jews.

Given that there were 80 million Germans in the Reich and only 12 million Jews on the whole planet (comparatively few in Germany proper) this latter attitude speaks of a massive inferiority complex amongst some of the perpetrators of the genocide.
Actually World Jewry had at least 14-15 million members in 1939. But that relatively small number is irrelevant, since Hitler believed that Jews controlled the actions of Britain, the United States and the Soviet Union, and thus had all the forces of those states at their disposal.

In Hitler's eyes, and those of many right-wing nationalists, World Jewry was a pygmy standing on the shoulder of a rather dim-witted Gentile giant, whispering into the latter's ear and telling him what to do.

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#148

Post by michael mills » 23 Jan 2018, 03:50

The Japanese perpetrated mass executions of ethic Chinese, often by bayonet and often preceded by rape. In North china alone some 2.7 million civilians died from the Three Alls policy: "kill all, loot all, burn all." Around 20 million Chinese civilians died give or take a million or two.
The Japanese never at any time pursued an aim of exterminating the Chinese population in whole or in part, or any other population group for that matter. Where the Japanese did kill civilians it was in the context of suppressing resistance, eg the Communist guerilla campaign in Shandong, in the course of which the Japanese army rounded up the civilian population and concentrated it in guarded townships, and then devastated the countryside in order to deny sustenance to the guerillas.

The Japanese aim in China was to install a pro-Japanese government that would protect Japanese investment and economic activities in that country. In Malaya, the Japanese aim was to use the Chinese population to run the economy under Japanese political control, ie the same rol that the Chinese had had under British rule.

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#149

Post by michael mills » 23 Jan 2018, 04:08

.....the Wannsee conference was merely a bringing together and organizing of the decision.
What organisation took place at the Wannsee Conference? None - the sole outcome was that the assembled state secretaries agreed that all Jewish policy should be under the sole control of Heydrich and that they should take orders from him on it.

At the beginning of the conference Heydrich outlined his plan for the "Final Solution", which consisted of deporting all Jews under German control into occupied Soviet territory, where strict segregation of the sexes would result over time in a marked reduction of the number of Jews through natural decrease, ie the death rate exceeding the birth rate, the latter being zero. He also threw in the suggestion that the remaining Jews would have to be "treated appropriately", so as to prevent any revival of a Jewish population if they were released.

This plan outlined by Heydrich was never implemented since the Germans never succeeded in conquering the Soviet Union, which was the necessary precondition for its implementation. Instead, a program of deportation to extermination camps in occupied Polish territory was substituted. However, before the Wannsee Conference initial steps toward the implementation of Heydrich's plan had begun, namely a questionnaire sent from Berlin to the local occupation authorities in occupied Soviet territory asking how many Jews deported from Germany could be accommodated in each locality.

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Re: Allies could have saved 4 million Jews, says Bibi

#150

Post by Attrition » 23 Jan 2018, 12:21

~~~~~There is nothing unfamiliar about the justification for turning refugees away in the 1930. Unless you had a crystal ball, who would not understand the motives for turning back refugees. It was fear, xenophobia and religious discrimination that the refugees were economic migrants over here taking jobs or living on welfare, diluting culture with their alien ways and religion. These were people from sh1thole countries.~~~~~

Considering the routine ultraviolence of the western slave empires (which began centuries earlier) and its demographic effects, allowing refugees in would have been the surprising thing. The nazi genocides against Jews had several motives, antisemite prejudice being one of them and utilitarianism another. Aktion Reinhard derived from the failure in the USSR and would have been inflicted even if Judaism had never existed. By emphasising the genocides against Jews modern propagandists like Netanyahu can obscure the others, which have uncomfortable analogies with contemporary practice in "respectable" states.

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