Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
James Paul
Member
Posts: 92
Joined: 09 Sep 2016 21:05
Location: Scotland

Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by James Paul » 05 May 2017 17:19

For example, on Stormfront there are dozens of different threads claiming that certain famous photos of the Holocaust are fakes/frauds.

Here are a couple:

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t940784/

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t899215/

Do any of these allegations have any credibility at all?

Are there any well known photos that have been proven to be faked?

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 6796
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Michael Kenny » 05 May 2017 17:37

There are fake photos of anything and everything. However I suspect we are entering territory where the real intention is to discredit the Holocaust rather than fake photos.

User avatar
Sergey Romanov
Member
Posts: 1984
Joined: 28 Dec 2003 01:52
Location: World

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Sergey Romanov » 05 May 2017 18:08

The first allegation is debunked at http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... amous.html

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 6219
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by wm » 05 May 2017 18:11

The second one is a shitty US tv programme about ghosts using stock photos. The crash happened at night, in 1912 such a photo of a quite large area at night wasn't technically possible (without using limelight which obviously wouldn't be readily available in a remote place near Dresden, Ohio).
Last edited by wm on 05 May 2017 18:12, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Sergey Romanov
Member
Posts: 1984
Joined: 28 Dec 2003 01:52
Location: World

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Sergey Romanov » 05 May 2017 18:12

The second allegation is refuted at http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ed-by.html

So as you can see both claims are laughable. That is generally representative of the denier claims about fake Holocaust photos.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8868
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by michael mills » 06 May 2017 04:04

There are examples of genuine photos being cropped in such a way as to remove an element of doubt about what they really show. The prime example is the famous "Judenaktion Iwangorod" one.

This is the full photo: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... (1942).jpg

This is the cropped version: http://www.strangehistory.net/2013/07/2 ... ivanhorod/

The second link also contains a speculative analysis of the full photograph made by me some years ago.

The cropped version of the photo was published in a Polish Communist propaganda book in 1959. It appears to be unequivocally an image showing a man in the uniform of the German Order Police in the act of shooting a fleeing woman carrying a child.

However, the full photo is much harder to interpret, and could be showing a number of different scenarios. There is in existence a number of photos of genuine mass executions, and this one does not resemble them in any way. It looks far more like a policeman guarding a group of forced agricultural labourers in the act of trying to stop an escape attempt by one of them.

The most plausible explanation for the cropping of the photo is that it was undertaken by the Polish Communist Government for propaganda purposes, to make it look more like a planned execution. The cropped version gives the impression that the shooting of the woman was the subject of the photo, and that the person taking the photo was aiming specifically at that action; however, the composition of the full photo is quite different, since the camera is aimed neither at the man aiming his rifle at the fleeing woman, nor at the group of crouching civilians standing next to an area of ploughed soil, but rather at a point midway between them, which suggests that the camera has been suddenly moved sideways from the point at which it was originally aiming.

So what the photo actually shows remains a matter for conjecture.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8868
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by michael mills » 06 May 2017 04:46

An earlier discussion of the Ivangorod photo here (including my speculative interpretation)"

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=184028&start=15

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8868
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by michael mills » 06 May 2017 05:13

Here is a photo of Wehrmacht officers observing a group of peasant women working in a field in the occupied Soviet Union in 1942.

https://au.pinterest.com/pin/549228117027831613/

The white head-scarves worn by the peasant women seem to be the same as those worn by the crouching women on the right of the Ivangorod photo, which suggests to me that the latter are also more likely to be peasant women than Jewesses.

The landscape in this photo is also of the same nature as that shown in the Ivangorod photo, suggesting that both photos were taken in the same general geographical area, namely the steppe region of central or southern Ukraine.

It seems that there was an interest among German personnel in taking photos of themselves or other German personnel in proximity to local people working in the fields.

I have a feeling that the Ivangorod photo may well fall into the same category, at least as far as the original intention of the photographer is concerned. A number of elements in the Ivangorod photo suggest that the civilians shown in it were a party of peasants working in a field, ie the ploughed or dug-over soil at the right edge of the photo, the shovels lying on the ground, the upright stake at the edge of the patch of soil, the peasant clothes of the civilians. The policeman shown in the photo and the at least three others outside it, including the photographer, may have been a group guarding or overseeing the workers.

In this scenario, the most likely intention of the photographer would have been to take a photo of the civilians digging in the field, and perhaps also of the guards watching them. However, that scene has been suddenly disturbed by the injection of overwhelming violence; how exactly that came about we do not know, but the photographer, having positioned himself and prepared his camera to take a photo of the peasants working in the field, was able to take an unposed shot of the violent action, resulting in the chaotic but dramatic scene that we see today.

User avatar
Sergey Romanov
Member
Posts: 1984
Joined: 28 Dec 2003 01:52
Location: World

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Sergey Romanov » 06 May 2017 06:04

Mills is correct that the Ivangorod photo does not lend itself to an easy interpretation. It's certainly not a fake photo, as for example the deniers at CODOH and elsewhere claim, albeit it was a subject to manipulation, as Mills points out.

The woman with the child might not have been the intended victim and might have been simply trying to get herself and the child out of the danger zone quickly.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 6219
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by wm » 06 May 2017 10:13

michael mills wrote:In this scenario, the most likely intention of the photographer would have been to take a photo of the civilians digging in the field, and perhaps also of the guards watching them.
It's not peasants digging in the field, the commonly used cereals didn't need any digging between planting and harvesting. And its obvious the picture shows grass or young green wheat.
People didn't work in such tight groups, as rule they used a loose line "formation". And didn't assume such awkward positions during work.
They didn't use shovels working in the fields.
Their clothes are too good to be used in the fields, they look more like their "Formal wear", if they even had one.
Working in the fields women didn't bring their children with them, their children worked watching the cows or other farm animals, or were doing light farm chores.
Peasants didn't sleep or die during their field works like here, in the left lower corner:
person.jpg
as to the scarfs, that was maybe true in Poland, in the USSR the Jews were thoroughly (and forcibly) integrated into the rest of population and didn't wear distinctly different clothes. In fact any woman staying/working outside would wear scarf, it wasn't a fashion statement, it was a climate dictated necessity.
And, in the end, on the back of the photo someone indeed wrote: Jewish action in Ivanhorod.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by wm on 06 May 2017 21:47, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
seaburn
Financial supporter
Posts: 967
Joined: 11 Apr 2013 11:03
Location: Europe

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by seaburn » 06 May 2017 10:22

To be honest ‘James Paul’ I wouldn’t believe anything I read concerning the Holocaust on those websites, their only aim is to debunk it ever happened. But unfortunately (IMO) the deniers are assisted by the shutting down of any reasonable discussion on separating fact from erroneous fiction by those who guard the flame. If would be statistically impossible if all the reporting and coverage back in 1945 was 100% accurate and no doubt estimates of numbers killed or photos that were misinterpreted have entered the public domain as fact. Not addressing these now only serves to give ammunition to those who want us to believe that everything we have been told about the Holocaust is a myth.

So IMO, everything should be up to scrutiny and anything found to be a dubious fact should be weeded out. I have no doubt that the end result will equate the incorrect facts to be the equivalent of removing 100 pails of water from a vast Ocean. Because the primary evidence of what happened to the Jews during the Third Reich is so overwhelming that no sane person can ever deny it happened and getting into semantics of whether ‘only’ 1 million died here or there instead of 2 million is sidestepping the very nub of the issue.

IMO, if only 10% of the numbers killed was true, it would still be the most shameful episode in our recent history. So I’m totally in favour of looking objectively at any disputed fact, because anything found that can be discredited can never undermine the overwhelming truth of that monstrous crime against humanity.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 6219
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by wm » 06 May 2017 10:46

That the Polish Communist Government falsified history should be proved not assumed.
Generally, they reinterpreted history and inflated some numbers here or there (mainly trying to prove their popularity among the population).

Anything published about the Communist Party and the USSR should be treated with suspicion, but the other books published during the communist era were and are valuable, many are the only source of information available.
In the Communist Poland books were the least censored medium, they actually presented history quite truthfully and realistically.
As a kid, I actually learned from old communist era books about brutality of the Soviet Army, Soviet/Polish soldiers raping civilians, and a few other things.
"Correcting" of history was done mainly by removing offending information by the censors, the Government generally didn't try to "inject" false information into books. Which were mainly written by writers/historians on their own initiative anyway. The Communist Poland was much more free than it is assumed today by many.

It should be noted that particular book was published in 1958, during the unique period of a temporary liberalization called Polish thaw - the Polish communists had much more pressing problems on their hands than falsifying history at that time.
And it wasn't published by the government but by a veterans association.
So the claim they photo was doctored by the Polish Government at best is unproven, and really should be regarded as false.

User avatar
James Paul
Member
Posts: 92
Joined: 09 Sep 2016 21:05
Location: Scotland

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by James Paul » 07 May 2017 01:46

I thought it was all too good to be true.

It's ridiculous that Holocaust deniers believe this nonsense because it fits in with their beliefs.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8868
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by michael mills » 07 May 2017 02:13

It should be noted that particular book was published in 1958, during the unique period of a temporary liberalization called Polish thaw - the Polish communists had much more pressing problems on their hands than falsifying history at that time.
And it wasn't published by the government but by a veterans association.
So the claim they photo was doctored by the Polish Government at best is unproven, and really should be regarded as false.
Obviously somebody cropped the photo.

Equally obviously, the veteran's association that published the 1958 book "We Have Not Forgotten" had access to the cropped version, since the cropped photo was the one they published in their book.

Equally obviously, the publishers of the book knew that the photo they published had been cropped and did not show the full scene, since at least one of them had seen the original photo and had been instrumental in its preservation.

Accordingly, the publication of the cropped photo was a knowing attempt to deceive the readers of the book, since the cropped version looks more like a killing of a woman and child than the whole photo does.

Maybe it was not the publishers of the book who cropped the photo, but whoever it was, the cropping was obviously done for propaganda purposes, to distort what the full photograph actually shows.

User avatar
Skyderick
Member
Posts: 165
Joined: 11 Apr 2014 12:59

Re: Do any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Skyderick » 07 May 2017 07:02

Is the Rabbit arguing that the standing inmate was pasted onto the photo because the New York Times Magazine's version predates others? I don't think he fully appreciates how much easier it is to remove a person from a photo than to add one - lighting, angle and texture considered. Nor do I see what one stands to gain from adding another emaciated inmate to the group pictured? But suppose someone decided to merge two photos together for whatever reason, would that make either of the originals fake?
Here's the photo on April 29, 1945 - a week prior to the New York Times Magazine's doctored version:

Image

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”