Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

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The Black Rabbit of Inlé
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 30 May 2017 04:24

Michael Kenny wrote:I got a better copy the original photo.
Your unaccredited C&P is already well known; FYI, it's the version used by the Buchenwald memorial museum.

Care to offer an explanation for Simon Toncman's apparent vitiligo is this version?

Image

Michael Kenny wrote:The one with the standing man removed is the fake. No doubt.
No proof either.

Michael Kenny wrote:The hole just to right of mans shoulder (the lower of 2 holes in the original) has nearly disappeared in the middle image and the wooden post left edge is much softer than in the other pic.
You're another one who doesn't understand that you're not going to find precise details in a palm-sized 1940s wartime-newspaper-quality printing of a photograph!

Michael Kenny wrote:Note his 'flash shadow' on the wall and ceiling behind him.
The shadow on the ceiling could have been created the same way as Toncman's apparent shadow on the floor and bunks: by cutting pieces of partially shaded film into shapes, laying them into position, and then photographing the composite image.

Michael Kenny wrote:See that the version I used has the number in a different position to the photo that appears on Stormfront. This shows that there is more than one (duplicate) negative and that I am not so trusting as to accept at face value any pic from a Revisionist Hate Site!
FYI, several different prints of the Toncman-present version are viewable on Wikipedia:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ration.jpg

The one you've C&P without accreditation was probably taken from:
http://cdn.history.com/sites/2/2014/01/ ... vivors.jpg

A uniquely cropped version appears in the IWM collection [I've been there to see the original]. It has proved that there is no known uncropped print:
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205194348

Michael Kenny
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 May 2017 05:18

I have no hope of, nor intention to, convince the apologists. They will only see what they want to see. The evidence clearly shows that the man has been removed from the photo rather than being added later. Reader can form their own opinion on the matter.

Note that the fake photo with the man removed appears to make the bunks continue for 2 sections when in fact there is only one there.
See also that though both are low quality the second hole in the upright beam is very noticeable in the real photo but not in the fake. The grain and texture in the low quality real pic also stands out. The fake is vastly inferior and you can see where the previously hard edge is now slightly wobbly where the mans body has been removed
otu0270-horzddds.jpg
otu0291_stitchsdgh-hoghrz.jpg

See above that there is just one row of bunks behind the man then a wall and the roof is sloped up to the right. Green line is where wall meets roof. I would like to meet the man who in 1945 could insert a shadow across that many contrasting surfaces.


A straight comparison of the beams below. Note how you can match points up (green)except on the area where the mans shoulder was removed(blue square). There is more detail in that area on the original than anywhere else yet the doctored photo has none at all. The flash even reflects off it.
Remember that for the apologist to be right all the detail and grain on the post beside the man will have to have been added later by whoever retouched the photo
otu029oooooooooooooo.jpg
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The Black Rabbit of Inlé
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 30 May 2017 06:16

Michael Kenny wrote:Note that the fake photo with the man removed appears to make the bunks continue for 2 sections when in fact there is only one there.
Kenny's completely wrong, again; there were actually seven further bunks [nos. 29 - 35].

The photo was taken in Barrack 56, in the Littler Camp. The barrack was a pre-fabricated horse-stable, the type of barrack commonly associated with Birkenau.

Visible in the Toncman-present version[s] are bunks nos. 25 - 29

Image
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205194348


Bunks nos. 32 - 35 are visible in the photo below.
Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _74976.jpg

[edited for typo]
Last edited by The Black Rabbit of Inlé on 30 May 2017 09:49, edited 1 time in total.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 May 2017 06:20

Having spent years chasing down archive photos I am amazed that people think cropping a negative for printing is 'altering' it. I also know that you can ask for a 'full' print of any negative in any archive if you want one. Tank modellers have been doing this for years. You can also get full-frame prints of cine film. The wartime clips you see are cropped through the framing of the projector, You can get individual frames printed to the actual size which is noticeably bigger than anything you get with a screen grab.

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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 May 2017 06:33

There is quite clearly a wooden wall/partition behind the standing man.

ghiykkkkkk.jpg
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The Black Rabbit of Inlé
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 30 May 2017 07:15

Michael Kenny wrote:There is quite clearly a wooden wall/partition behind the standing man.
Image
How do you explain the photo of bunks 32 - 35, considering bunk 35 is indisputably the final bunk? What were the bunks to the left of bunk 32 do you suppose?

What you claim is "a wooden wall/partition" was simply another post [right] and the foot of a chimney [left] like the one seen in this photo of another Buchenwald barrack:

Image

Michael Kenny wrote:Having spent years chasing down archive photos I am amazed that people think cropping a negative for printing is 'altering' it.

"Cropping a negative" !? You really don't know what you're talking about; prints are cropped, not negatives.

Michael Kenny wrote:I also know that you can ask for a 'full' print of any negative in any archive if you want one.
I'll be sure to quote you as an authority next time the NARA cites ruling 36 CFR 1254.20(b). :roll:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/1254.20

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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 May 2017 07:44

The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote: How do you explain the photo of bunks 32 - 35, considering bunk 35 is indisputably the final bunk? What were the bunks to the left of bunk 32 do you suppose?
You have not submitted any evidence that the photo of bunks 32-35 are in the same building as 26-27-28. Further the writing is English and so must be written by the liberators. Where is this information connecting the two photos?

The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote: What you claim is "a wooden wall/partition" was simply another post [right] and the foot of a chimney [left] like the one seen in this photo of another Buchenwald barrack:
Rubbish. It is clearly a wooden wall/partition. You can see the individual planks.

Oh and next time you post a photo try and print it the right way round. Basic error printing from the wrong side of a negative or not noticing the writing is back to front and the mens coats have the buttons on the wrong side. That is the sort of detail you notice after 30 years of studying photos.
This is how it should be viewed:
otu0537 ok.jpg
You are a complete novice in this area!
The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote:
"Cropping a negative" !? You really don't know what you're talking about; prints are cropped, not negatives.
Having spent the best part of 30 years chasing after photos in just about every archive in the UK I think I know a bit more than you about 'prints'. Further I used to do my own printing and know all about '' dodging and burning. I know what you could do before digital and I know how difficult it was and how long it could take. I have never had any trouble getting a full print (i.e the whole of the negative without any cropping done by the negative carrier) when I wanted one. I also have asked for and got full sized (again the complete frame including the parts obscured by the gate when playing) prints from cine film. Take your bluster elsewhere because it won't work on me.
It is clear that the photo without the standing man has been altered around the upright wooden beam. Detail has been lost in the exact areas where the man touched the beam. The photo without the standing figure is the 'fake'
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The Black Rabbit of Inlé
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 30 May 2017 09:26

Michael Kenny wrote:
The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote: How do you explain the photo of bunks 32 - 35, considering bunk 35 is indisputably the final bunk? What were the bunks to the left of bunk 32 do you suppose?
You have not submitted any evidence that the photo of bunks 32-35 are in the same building as 26-27-28. Further the writing is English and so must be written by the liberators. Where is this information connecting the two photos?
I don't know why you even mentioned it, but the text could have been written by a liberated inmate with a basic knowledge of English—although in that particular example it looks like it was written by two separate people. Text painted on other bunks suggests English wasn't the mother-tongue of the author.

Even if the photo was taken in a different Pferdestallbaracken, it shows that they contained 35 bunks, not 29.


Michael Kenny wrote:
The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote: What you claim is "a wooden wall/partition" was simply another post [right] and the foot of a chimney [left] like the one seen in this photo of another Buchenwald barrack:
Rubbish. It is clearly a wooden wall/partition. You can see the individual planks.
Nonsense, you can see a post and the foot of a chimney [consistent with the photo below]

Michael Kenny wrote:Oh and next time you post a photo try and print it the right way round. Basic error printing from the wrong side of a negative or not noticing the writing is back to front and the mens coats have the buttons on the wrong side. That is the sort of detail you notice after 30 years of studying photos.
This is how it should be viewed:

Image

You are a complete novice in this area!
I spotted straight away that it was reversed, but after going to make tea, I forgot to upload the flipped version I'd made with Google Paint on returning to my desk. How droll that you leap on someone else's uploading error to castigate me!

The flipped image from that barrack is completely consistent with the foot of the chimney seen in the Toncman-present version. I'm sure that didn't escape your notice!

Michael Kenny wrote:Having spent the best part of 30 years chasing after photos in just about every archive in the UK I think I know a bit more than you about 'prints'. Further I used to do my own printing and know all about '' dodging and burning. I know what you could do before digital and I know how difficult it was and how long it could take. I have never had any trouble getting a full print (i.e the whole of the negative without any cropping done by the negative carrier) when I wanted one. I also have asked for and got full sized (again the complete frame including the parts obscured by the gate when playing) prints from cine film. Take your bluster elsewhere because it won't work on me.
It is clear that the photo without the standing man has been altered around the upright wooden beam. Detail has been lost in the exact areas where the man touched the beam. The photo without the standing figure is the 'fake'
*Yawn*. You've never ordered photos from the NARA , which is the only relevant archive here.

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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 May 2017 15:44

The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote:
Even if the photo was taken in a different Pferdestallbaracken, it shows that they contained 35 bunks, not 29.
You have no idea where the photo was taken and it does not 'show' they contained '35 bunks'. That is your assumption.

Michael Kenny wrote: I spotted straight away that it was reversed, but after going to make tea, I forgot to upload the flipped version I'd made with Google Paint on returning to my desk. How droll that you leap on someone else's uploading error to castigate me!
You post it you defend it. It shows you have no eye for detail. No matter who made the original error you should have spotted it.................oh wait, you say you did but forgot after you stopped for a cuppa......I believe you.


The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote: You've never ordered photos from the NARA , which is the only relevant archive here.


The Official photo with the standing man is an archive photo with known provenance. There is not the slightest evidence to cast doubt on its authenticity. It was printed in its official form within days of it being taken. The disputed photo is not from NARA. It is from a Newspaper. Further it is a very low res copy that it is impossible to enlarge and extract enough detail in order to reach a firm conclusion. I believe that is your intention. Not to decide this issue but to use it to sow confusion and doubt.
Didn't work son. Have another go.

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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 May 2017 16:32

The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote:
The flipped image from that barrack is completely consistent with the foot of the chimney seen in the Toncman-present version. I'm sure that didn't escape your notice!
What did not escape my notice is you have no eye for detail or indeed any ability to 'read' a photo.This can not be the same bank of bunks because of 2 very clear design differences. See if you can spot it.
otu0537 ok-vert.jpg
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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 May 2017 19:47

> If evidence ever surfaces which proves the NYT dun did it, I will be happy to concede I was wrong

It is an established fact but you deny it (and never address the arguments offered; like you did this time too, unsurprisingly), preferring to spout your crazy conspiracy theory while citing not a single piece of evidence for it. Intellectual dishonesty as it were.

But not to worry, everybody sees you've been utterly debunked.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 May 2017 19:48

Michael Kenny wrote:Having spent years chasing down archive photos I am amazed that people think cropping a negative for printing is 'altering' it.
And believe me, that's far from the most absurd thing you'll hear from the Rabbit.

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Gorque
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Gorque » 30 May 2017 20:52

IMHO, the picture with the man in it is the original. The details on the post, upon which he is leaning, clinches it for me.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Michael Kenny » 31 May 2017 01:09

Photo A
otu0280KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKb-horzb.jpg
In photo A you can see the ground support (yellow arrow) for the bunks above has gone. Without this support the bunks would collapse. It is a mistake made by the person who altered the original (photo b). You can see this ground support in photo B (yellow arrow again) and even if you think it is hidden in shadow in photo A the face would still reflect the flash and be as visible as the face of the uprights above it.
There is just one upright that has vertical upright lines on the side. This is red arrow in all photos. Note that this upright is the one masked by the standing man. When he was removed they had to paint in the missing bits and the small visible piece of upright marked with the red arrow was chosen as a pattern. As it was the only upright with upright lines on it is very distinctive. It appears in only one place on photo B but on photo A it is the pattern of all the last visible upright.
The blue arrow shows a shadow on the far end wall which must be very near the last bunk no 29.
Photo B
ggggggty-horz223.jpg
Photo C
otu0291_stitchhhhh.jpg
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Michael Kenny
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Post by Michael Kenny » 31 May 2017 01:31

The Black Rabbit of Inlé wrote:
Care to offer an explanation for Simon Toncman's apparent vitiligo is this version?

Image


Always willing to help a struggling amateur.
Here is your mark and some others you missed.

Try and work out what they are.
otu0561_stitch jjjkkkqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq.jpg
otu0561_stitch jjjkkkqqqq2222.jpg
otu0447_stitchqqqqq3333.jpg
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