Nazi rape dogs

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#91

Post by Sergey Romanov » 04 Jun 2017, 23:02

history1 wrote:
Sergey Romanov wrote:Different witnesses, objection dismissed.
And whom to believe now?
If you have read enough witness accounts, you know they often mix up such details. Once a I read an account that got the breed of Bari of Treblinka (the St-Bernard+something else mix) completely wrong (sry, can't remember now which).

What happened was probably that several breeds of dogs were used for the torture; but the people who got tortured heard from others about the dog Volodya and assigned the name to the dog that was (ab)used to abuse them. This only means that we can't say with certainty which of the dogs actually involved was the infamous Volodya, not that we can dismiss the first-hand accounts of abuse. As always, when analyzing testimonies, we should try to differentiate between first-person info and hearsay. Whether it's the Auschwitz or the Chile dog rape claims...

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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#92

Post by michael mills » 05 Jun 2017, 03:26

So are we still to regard dog rape of women as improbable, as so much argued in above posts?
Yes, we are to regard it as improbable. Just because a person claims to have been raped by a dog does not mean that it really happened.

There are two elements that need to be applied in judging the likely truth of a claim, the credibility of the claim itself, and the reliability of the claimant.

A credible claim may be made by an unreliable witness, eg a person who has been proved to be a habitual liar. On the other hand, a very reliable person may make a claim lacking all credibility, eg a respected clergyman claiming to have received a visit from Jesus.

In the Middle Ages there were women who claimed to have had sexual intercourse with the Devil, and the interesting thing is that their descriptions of the experience corroborated each other, eg they all gave the same description of the satanic genitalia (scaly and very cold). The fact that those women all told the same story does not mean that the story was true.

Another factor that needs to be taken into account is the extreme conditions under which these women were living for extended periods, which may have affected their minds and distorted their perception of reality. Thus, a situation in which they were really tortured by humans accompanied by dogs could have become in their minds a situation in which the torture was performed by the dog itself, in a sexual form. Their description of that distorted scenario, told to another prisoner with a stronger grip on reality, could have then been interpreted by that other prisoner in terms of the dog having been specially trained to perform such acts.


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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#93

Post by michael mills » 05 Jun 2017, 04:04

The Chilean first-hand testimonies make the dog-rape plausible, significantly enhance the probability of the Nazi-era claims.
You are ignoring the possibility that the Chilean female prisoners who claimed to have been raped by a dog simply invented the story.

In order to make a reasoned and impartial assessment of the claim we would need to know more about the person or persons making it. Were those persons making it entirely innocent, non-political people who had simply got caught up in the repression imposed by the Pinochet regime?

Or were they committed political opponents of that regime? In the latter case, they cannot be regarded as entirely reliable witnesses since they would have had a strong incentive to exaggerate and even fictionalise the harsh treatment they received from their captors, in order to portray them as exceptionally inhuman and perverted.

Another suspicious element in the stories is the inclusion of the claim that rats were introduced into their vaginas and then induced to claw them by being given electric shocks. That is very obviously derived from the "Chinese rat torture" described in George Orwell's novel "1984". Orwell most probably derived that description from the book by Sergei Mel'gunov, "Red Terror in Russia", which was published in the West in the early 1920s, and included all sorts of lurid claims about atrocities committed by the Bolsheviks (including that they made gloves and other objects from the skin of their victims; the book even contains photos of those alleged objects).

According to Mel'gunov, the "rat torture" was introduced by Chinese mercenaries working for the Cheka. In his description, one end of metal pipe is securely fastened to the prisoners face; rats are introduced into the pipe from the opposite end, which is then heated so that the rats cannot escape through it. The rats then try to escape through the end attached to the prisoners face, and finding it blocked, they begin to bite and scratch at the prisoners face in their desperate attempt to escape from the pipe that is heating up and causing them pain.

It is noteworthy that many of the alleged Bolshevik atrocities described in Mel'gunov's book in the 1920s were later attributed by Communists who had been prisoners of the Germans to their anti-Communist captors, eg the allegation that those captors had made objects out of the skin of prisoners. The reason why the Communist ex-prisoners made those allegation is obvious; they were projecting a lurid allegation that had been made against them back against the people who had made it. It was a case of "it was you who did those horrible things, not us".

If the Chilean prisoners making the allegation of "rat torture" were in fact Communists, then they would have had a strong motive to manufacture that claim against their anti-Communist captors. In the first place, they would probably have been aware that "rat torture" was an allegation that had been made against their fellow Communists in the past, and they would have had the same motivation to turn that allegation against their captors as the Communist former inmates of the Bergan-Belsen concentration camp had had to turn the allegation of manufacturing articles from human skin against their former captors.

The "dog rape" element could well have arisen from the fact that the women's jailors did have dogs that may well have been used to intimidate prisoners, and perhaps even attack them physically by biting, something that is fairly normal canine behaviour. In that case, a normal biting attack by a dog would have been fictionalised into a sexual attack, in order to make the jailors appear even more inhuman and perverted than they actually were.

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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#94

Post by history1 » 05 Jun 2017, 06:43

Sergey Romanov wrote:[...]
What happened was probably that several breeds of dogs were used for the torture; but the people who got tortured heard from others about the dog Volodya and assigned the name to the dog that was (ab)used to abuse them. This only means that we can't say with certainty which of the dogs actually involved was the infamous Volodya, not that we can dismiss the first-hand accounts of abuse. [...]
True. It remembers me very much on the survivor claims about getting seleceted by the infamous Dr. Mengele. EVERYONE states that he/she was selected by Mengele. Even when being told by the court that Mengele wasn´t even in the camp at the time they are sure about their believe. When we read their testimonies we could think that he was the only man selecting Jews at their arrival. We know that this is not the case though.

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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#95

Post by Yuli » 05 Jun 2017, 08:05

EVERYONE states that he/she was selected by Mengele
I don't think EVERYONE is correct here. Many testimonies mention other SS doctors and guards - Klein, Rohde, Kramer, Taube and more. It also depends on whether selections were made on the ramp upon arrival or later inside the camp during roll calls or in the infirmaries. But, of course, the name Mengele became much more known over the years as the architypical selector (angel of death) and some testimonies given many years after the events erroneously refer to him because the survivor could not remember or never knew by whom he was selected.

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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#96

Post by Yuli » 05 Jun 2017, 08:54

Michael Miles wrote about Jewish testimonies:
It is possible that a guard dog mounted a prisoner lying on the ground, and that occurrence was witnessed by Jewish prisoners who misinterpreted it as a sexual act, the average Jew being unacquainted with canine behaviour since in traditional Jewish culture dogs were regarded as unclean animals and traditionalist Jews avoided any contact with them.
About Chilean testimonies:
The "dog rape" element could well have arisen from the fact that the women's jailors did have dogs that may well have been used to intimidate prisoners, and perhaps even attack them physically by biting, something that is fairly normal canine behaviour. In that case, a normal biting attack by a dog would have been fictionalised into a sexual attack, in order to make the jailors appear even more inhuman and perverted than they actually were.
We can summarize from these learned analyses that dog rape testimonies are either misinterpretaions of normal canine mounting behavior due to ignorance of traditionalist Jews, or exaggerations of normal canine biting behavior fictionalized by Communist Chileans to shame their aggressors. Thus not one of the multiple testimonies, including first-hand accounts, is believable, and there is really no convincing evidence that sexual assaults of prisoners by dogs ever happened, or could happen.

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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#97

Post by michael mills » 05 Jun 2017, 09:46

Dogs can easily be trained to physically attack with their teeth specific human beings, eg a person carrying a weapon, or a prisoner in a striped uniform, since it is normal canine behaviour to attack animals that appear to pose a threat.

A dog might also be encouraged to mount a human, since mounting is normal dominance behaviour.

However, I very much doubt that a dog could be trained to sexually penetrate a human being, since a human does not exude the smell of a female dog in season, which is what stimulates a male dog to mate. In other words, a male dog simply would have no desire to have sexual intercourse with human females, who are not attractive for him.

That is why I find the claims of "rape dogs" dubious in the extreme. They sound like something out of pornographic literature, which as we all known is based on male sexual fantasy rather than objective reality.

For a bit of light relief, here is a lurid tale of humans raping dogs, from what appears to be a rabidly right-wing source:

http://ufpnews.com/dog-rape-sweeping-am ... c-content/

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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#98

Post by Sergey Romanov » 05 Jun 2017, 10:27

> I very much doubt that a dog could be trained to sexually penetrate a human being, since a human does not exude the smell of a female dog in season

Are you saying that human-dog bestiality is not a thing?

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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#99

Post by michael mills » 05 Jun 2017, 10:39

It seems that there are also allegations about "CIA rape dogs":

http://www.ehlinelaw.com/child-safety/cia-rape-dogs/

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#100

Post by Sergey Romanov » 05 Jun 2017, 11:00

Well, if you read the thread more carefully, you will see that this and other such claims have already been posted.

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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#101

Post by Yuli » 05 Jun 2017, 11:26

And If you surf the internet with woman, dog, bestiallity, you will find many published cases of this pervert, but very real, behavior, which does not require any special training. It is unlawful and the women are put on trial.

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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#102

Post by michael mills » 05 Jun 2017, 14:33

Well, if you read the thread more carefully, you will see that this and other such claims have already been posted.
Indeed they have, and they seem to be made in fringe publications of an extremist political or sensationalist nature. What do you think of claims about "CIA rape dogs" returning to the United States and raping children?

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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#103

Post by Sergey Romanov » 05 Jun 2017, 18:59

michael mills wrote:
Well, if you read the thread more carefully, you will see that this and other such claims have already been posted.
Indeed they have, and they seem to be made in fringe publications of an extremist political or sensationalist nature. What do you think of claims about "CIA rape dogs" returning to the United States and raping children?
I prefer you answering my question about whether or not you accept that human-dog bestiality is a real phenomenon.

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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#104

Post by michael mills » 06 Jun 2017, 05:24

It is theoretically possible, although I suspect it exists more in the pornographic imagination than in reality.

Sexual penetration of a non-human female animal by a male human is quite possible, and seems not uncommon with larger, more passive animals such as sheep and goats. I think trying it with a female dog would be a bit of a risk, since a dog is well equipped to defend itself with its sharp teeth.

Sexual penetration of a human female by a male non-human animal is far less likely, since it is physiologically impossible to compel a male animal, human or non-human, to perform an act of sexual penetration that its own body is not impelling it to perform.

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Re: Nazi rape dogs

#105

Post by David Thompson » 06 Jun 2017, 06:46

As for human-dog bestiality as a real occurrence, see, generally:

Zoophilia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestiality

For a specific, well-documented example of the occurrence in filmed pornographic performances, see:

Linda Lovelace
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Lovelace

and her account in:

Linda Lovelace, Ordeal (2000), pp. 105–113 and 194

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