When did the Holocaust begin?

[Avalancheon]

Is there any consensus on when the Holocaust began in earnest? Not just WRT the persecution of the Jews, but their actual genocide?

From what I've been able to tell, it really got going with the invasion of the USSR. Prior to mid 1941, I just haven't heard about many mass murders and whatnot.

[Sergey Romanov]

It would really depend on how one defines the Holocaust, some go so far as to put the beginning in 1933. If one goes with the "murder plan by a state", even if a partial one, it makes sense to count from the invasion of the USSR. Of course on 22.06.41 there hadn't yet been a plan to murder the Soviet Jews wholesale.

[DavidFrankenberg]

Usually, the decision of the Final Solution is attributed to Hitler in the autumn of 1941. Then in 1942 begins the Final Solution.
But prior to the Shoah are the mass executions in USSR, the persecutions etc.
As Sergey said, you can also get back to 1933 and count every Jew killed under Hitler régime till 1945. But, stricto sensu, it is usually assumed to have begun in 1942.

[Avalancheon]

It would really depend on how one defines the Holocaust, some go so far as to put the beginning in 1933. If one goes with the "murder plan by a state", even if a partial one, it makes sense to count from the invasion of the USSR. Of course on 22.06.41 there hadn't yet been a plan to murder the Soviet Jews wholesale.

So for Russia, it was going to be a mixture of mass murder and exile? Is it fair to say that the Holocaust grew out as an extension of generplan ost?

Usually, the decision of the Final Solution is attributed to Hitler in the autumn of 1941. Then in 1942 begins the Final Solution.
But prior to the Shoah are the mass executions in USSR, the persecutions etc.
As Sergey said, you can also get back to 1933 and count every Jew killed under Hitler régime till 1945. But, stricto sensu, it is usually assumed to have begun in 1942.

Are there any figures on how many Jews died prior to 1941? Would it be in the range of thousands, or tens of thousands?

[DavidFrankenberg]

It would really depend on how one defines the Holocaust, some go so far as to put the beginning in 1933. If one goes with the "murder plan by a state", even if a partial one, it makes sense to count from the invasion of the USSR. Of course on 22.06.41 there hadn't yet been a plan to murder the Soviet Jews wholesale.

So for Russia, it was going to be a mixture of mass murder and exile? Is it fair to say that the Holocaust grew out as an extension of generplan ost?

Nah. Usuallly, Ussr shootings are just seen as "preventive actions" against partisans : jews were seen as potential partisans by the Germans. But, you can notice that jews killings were not absolutely automatic. So you cant talk about "holocaust". It was just a mix of ultraviolence, antisemitism and fear of the partisan's actions.
It is not linked to the Final Solution. The Final Solution is decided in the autumn of 1941 as a retaliation to the entry of the US into the war. You wd say Hitler declared war the 12th december, but look at it frankly : Roosevelt did support massively Britain since 1940 and USSR since summer of 1941... so.
Hitler understood the increasing involvement of the US into the war (at the depend of Germany of course) as the action of the International Jewry.
He had warned in january 1939 in his famous discurse that if Jewry provoked a new WW as WWI, he would eradicate the Jewry in Europe.

Usually, the decision of the Final Solution is attributed to Hitler in the autumn of 1941. Then in 1942 begins the Final Solution.
But prior to the Shoah are the mass executions in USSR, the persecutions etc.
As Sergey said, you can also get back to 1933 and count every Jew killed under Hitler régime till 1945. But, stricto sensu, it is usually assumed to have begun in 1942.

Are there any figures on how many Jews died prior to 1941? Would it be in the range of thousands, or tens of thousands?

You mean before Barbarossa (22 june 1941) ?
Yeah, i wd say thousands, maybe tens of thousands maximum. Good question ! I dont have precise figures in head. I'll try to check that later.

[Sergey Romanov]

The Final Solution, as a systematic op against all European Jews, indeed began in 1942. The Holocaust began in 1941.

[DavidFrankenberg]

There is no Holocaust without the Final Solution.
Holocaust / Shoah / Final Solution, different words for a same thing : industrial genocide of the Jews.

[Sergey Romanov]

> There is no Holocaust without the Final Solution.

Then, according to your logic, the Final Solution began in 1941, yet you claimed something different above.

Babiy Yar and other Einsatzgruppen shootings are an acknowledged part of the Holocaust.

[DavidFrankenberg]

> There is no Holocaust without the Final Solution.

Then, according to your logic, the Final Solution began in 1941, yet you claimed something different above.

Babiy Yar and other Einsatzgruppen shootings are an acknowledged part of the Holocaust.

Nah. I said Hitler decided the Final Solution in late 1941 and it was fully applied since 1942.
In my opinion Babi Yar and other shootings that occurred in summer 1941 are not part of the Shoah/Holocaust/Final Solution. Babi Yar is an isolated retaliation act.
If some people assume it is part of the Final Solution, then they are wrong (imho).

[Sergey Romanov]

> In my opinion Babi Yar and other shootings that occurred in summer 1941 are not part of the Shoah/Holocaust

You are alone in this opinion. The question was about consensus.

[David Thompson]

An unsourced opinion post from DavidFrankenberg was removed pursuant to a prior warning at viewtopic.php?p=2091102#p2091102

[DavidFrankenberg]

The Final Solution, as a systematic op against all European Jews, indeed began in 1942. The Holocaust began in 1941.

Source ?

[Sergey Romanov]

The Final Solution, as a systematic op against all European Jews, indeed began in 1942. The Holocaust began in 1941.

Source ?

Source: Babiy Yar, part of the Holocaust, happened in 1941. Look it up.

[DavidFrankenberg]

So, it is your opinion indeed.

[Sergey Romanov]

It's not an opinion that that part of the Holocaust happened in 1941. To repeat, look it up.