Jewish "race"

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wbell
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Re: Jewish "race"

#16

Post by wbell » 30 Oct 2017, 20:06

DavidFrankenberg wrote: On "Herrero genocide", you can have a look there viewtopic.php?f=6&t=121698
Will do thanks.
DavidFrankenberg wrote:...You talk about natives killed in the US, but what about the natives dead in latin America ? Like 90% of them died. But this is quite different from the fate of both armenians and jews ; it was not about colonization in Turkey or Germany, but about real genocide.
If Hitler was set on genocide, why was there ever a plan for relocation of the Jews? It seems that Lebensraum was the driving force. Anyone that did not fit Hitler's racial imprint of purity was to be removed by any means. With the number of Jews to relocate and the resources available to do so, it was decided that liquidation was to become the final solution. Remember they weren't the only group to be targeted for extermination.

Assuming victory, Germany would desire trade at some point after the war. Mass homicide wasn't something that he would want to have dealt with if another solution presented itself as a viable one (at least that's my theory)...

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Re: Jewish "race"

#17

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 30 Oct 2017, 22:11

wbell wrote:
DavidFrankenberg wrote: On "Herrero genocide", you can have a look there viewtopic.php?f=6&t=121698
Will do thanks.
DavidFrankenberg wrote:...You talk about natives killed in the US, but what about the natives dead in latin America ? Like 90% of them died. But this is quite different from the fate of both armenians and jews ; it was not about colonization in Turkey or Germany, but about real genocide.
If Hitler was set on genocide, why was there ever a plan for relocation of the Jews?
All depends where you gonna relocate them. Looks like Hitler decided to relocate them in hell.
In nazi administration they would always talk about "relocation" instead of "elimination". The genocide had to stay secret.
It seems that Lebensraum was the driving force.Anyone that did not fit Hitler's racial imprint of purity was to be removed by any means. With the number of Jews to relocate and the resources available to do so, it was decided that liquidation was to become the final solution. Remember they weren't the only group to be targeted for extermination.Assuming victory, Germany would desire trade at some point after the war. Mass homicide wasn't something that he would want to have dealt with if another solution presented itself as a viable one (at least that's my theory)...

This has nothing to do with "lebensraum". He just wanted to kill all jews, because of november 1918. Other groups (communists, opponents etc) were to be eliminated because they were seen as threats too.


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wbell
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Re: Jewish "race"

#18

Post by wbell » 31 Oct 2017, 00:02

It seems that the Jews havw been persecuted for many years, They have been thrown out of several countries and persecuted. What do you think is the is the route of Anti-Semitism? Is there any historic validity to these feelings?

What did the Jews do (or what did people believe they did) to deserve such treatment? Personally, I've had some Jewish friends, who I've respected. As a Christian, we've not completely agreed, but we've found common ground.

What are your thoughts on this? Have Jews just been a scapegoat with misunderstood intentions; or are any of these negative feelings justified to any degree?

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Re: Jewish "race"

#19

Post by David Thompson » 31 Oct 2017, 00:40

wbell -- You wrote:
What are your thoughts on this? Have Jews just been a scapegoat with misunderstood intentions; or are any of these negative feelings justified to any degree?
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Re: Jewish "race"

#20

Post by wbell » 31 Oct 2017, 10:54

David, I didn't think that asking a question would contravene anything. I would have imagined that any answer would have been substantiated with reference.

It was not my intention to disobey any rules. If I did, I apologize.

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Re: Jewish "race"

#21

Post by michael mills » 02 Nov 2017, 00:08

If Hitler was set on genocide, why was there ever a plan for relocation of the Jews?
That was an entirely reasonable question by wbell, and David Frankenberger was mistaken in dismissing it out of hand. In discussing the question of Hitler's long-term intentions, there is no substitute for solid evidence, that perhaps David Frankenberger was unaware of.

For example, on two occasions early in 1940, Eichmann's office at the RSHA in Berlin asked the Soviet immigration authorities to allow the Jewish population of the German-occupied General-Government of the Occupied Polish Territories to be transferred into Soviet territory, on the basis of the German-Soviet agreement on mutual population exchanges that had been reached at the end of September 1939. The Soviet authorities refused the request on the grounds that that agreement provided only for ethnic Belarusians and Ukrainians to be transferred to Soviet territory.

A German request for the Jews under their control in the G-G to be transferred to Soviet territory is self-evidently inconsistent with any ostensible intention by Hitler to subject them to genocide at some future time, since once they were under Soviet control they would be out his reach. The request by Eichmann's office was simply a continuation of earlier efforts by German authorities right from the beginning of the invasion of Poland to push the Jews of the German Zone of Occupation eastward into the Soviet Zone, eg Heydrich's order to concentrate the Jews in areas contiguous to the inter-zonal Line of Demarcation, first east of Krakow, then in the Lublin District after its transfer (at Stalin's request) from Soviet to German control.

All the actions of the German authorities from September 1939 to the middle of 1940 suggest that the plan endorsed by Hitler was to transfer the Jews of Poland to the Soviet Union, most probably followed by the Jews of Greater Germany itself (Germany, Austria, Czechia), in all some two million persons. After the fall of France, that plan was superseded by the well-known plan to transport those Jews, plus those of Western Europe and of Germany's East European allies, to Madagascar, a plan that was frustrated by the failure to force a British surrender. The final phase of these deportation plans was reached after Hitler's decision in December 1940 to go ahead with the invasion of the Soviet Union, when planning began on the mass deportation of all European Jews into conquered Soviet territory, which was scheduled to begin in the spring of 1942, after the expected final defeat of the Red Army and the overthrow of Soviet power west of the Urals.

It was only after the failure of all the relocation plans, as a result of the failure to achieve a decisive victory over the Soviet Union by the end of 1941, that those plans were replaced by mass killing. The evidence suggests that the replacement was initiated by local German authorities faced with the burden of having to house and feed large numbers of imprisoned Jews, and was subsequently endorsed by Hitler at some point in time that cannot be determined precisely (historians disagree as to the timing). The evidence also suggests that the mass killing began as a series of localised limited actions that eventually expanded into a comprehensive genocide by about May 1942, and took on a momentum of its own. Even so, there were variations in the pace of destruction, at times intensifying, at other times slackening, apparently in response to Germany's fortunes on the battlefield; once defeat became inevitable, the mechanism of destruction began to speed up, but paradoxically became increasingly impeded by the need for more and more Jewish slave labour.

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Re: Jewish "race"

#22

Post by wbell » 02 Nov 2017, 09:23

Thanks Michael. This was my understanding of the events as well.

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Re: Jewish "race"

#23

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 02 Nov 2017, 14:13

Please note that mass killings of jews happened as soon as 39/40 in Poland, and also in 41 Russia.
The plan to Madagascar, like the plan to conquer England, were fantasies never seriously worked by Hitler, shaped for propaganda only in order to abuse his ennmy's naivety. It is the same mechanism which led Germans to send Jews into SU... of course the agreeents didnt specify the exchange of jews... but once again the nazis just wanted to abuse a bit more the possible naivety of their ennmies.

The date of the Final Solution's decision (the "Final Decision") is commonly accepted to be at autumn 41. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=230405
Hitler was determined to kill all jews. As soon as 1925 in Mein Kampf he think about killling massively the jews 'in order to avoid another world war' (always the same trick of abusing naivety of everyone who is listening to him).
If you can find no trace of a written order signed by Hitler mentionning the killing of all jews, that's because he wanted it to keep it secret. He knew it was the worst crime ever. He knew the consequences would be terrible for the Germany, and he didnt need a scandal like for the "T4 aktion".
Nazis used many euphemism concerning the jewish genocide : "relocation" for 'elimination", "Final Solution" for "jewish genocide".
The Nazis frequently used euphemistic language to disguise the true nature of their crimes. They used the term “Final Solution” to refer to their plan to annihilate the Jewish people. It is not known when the leaders of Nazi Germany definitively decided to implement the "Final Solution." The genocide, or mass destruction, of the Jews was the culmination of a decade of increasingly severe discriminatory measures.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10005151

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Re: Jewish "race"

#24

Post by Gorque » 02 Nov 2017, 14:53

DavidFrankenberg wrote:Please note that mass killings of jews happened as soon as 39/40 in Poland,....
Hi David:

That is not correct. The killings of Jews in the aforementioned time-frame were local actions that were limited in the number murdered and in scope. These killings were undertaken by random units of the S.S. or by the Selbschutz. By and large the group that suffered the worst of the excesses during this time-frame were Poles that the Germans deemed a threat to their rule i.e., the Polish Intelligentsia

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Re: Jewish "race"

#25

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 02 Nov 2017, 22:13

Was the food delivered in the ghettos by the Germans sufficient to maintain alive the Jews there between 1939 and june 1941 ?

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Re: Jewish "race"

#26

Post by Gorque » 03 Nov 2017, 02:33

DavidFrankenberg wrote:Was the food delivered in the ghettos by the Germans sufficient to maintain alive the Jews there between 1939 and june 1941 ?
Hi David:

First you used the time frame 39/40 and now you are using 1939 and June 1941. Why are you moving the goal posts? That's a very deceptive practice. Why did you do this?

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Re: Jewish "race"

#27

Post by michael mills » 03 Nov 2017, 07:02

The plan to Madagascar, like the plan to conquer England, were fantasies never seriously worked by Hitler, shaped for propaganda only in order to abuse his ennmy's naivety. It is the same mechanism which led Germans to send Jews into SU... of course the agreeents didnt specify the exchange of jews... but once again the nazis just wanted to abuse a bit more the possible naivety of their enemies.
That is historically incorrect. Conceptual plans for the transportation of 4 million Jews to Madagascar were developed by both the German Foreign office and by Eichmann's department in the RSHA. The full text of Eichmann's conceptual plan is extant, and I have previously posted translated excerpts from it on this forum. It is reasonable to assume that those plans had Hitler's support and were endorsed by him.

There is no reason to believe that the Madagascar Plan was not meant seriously, especially as the idea of transferring Jews to Madagascar was not originally conceived by the German National Socialists, but had been in existence for some time and had been considered by other governments, eg that of Poland. The reason it was not proceeded with is that Britain still controlled the ocean routes and could have prevented any movements from German-controlled Europe to Madagascar, or anywhere else for that matter.
The date of the Final Solution's decision (the "Final Decision") is commonly accepted to be at autumn 41
That is simply a theory by some historians. Other historians place it at the end of 1941, after the entry of the United States into the war against Germany. Some even place it as late as May 1942.
Hitler was determined to kill all Jews. As soon as 1925 in Mein Kampf he think about killing massively the Jews 'in order to avoid another world war' (always the same trick of abusing naivety of everyone who is listening to him).
That is historically incorrect. Hitler does not advocate the killing of all Jews in "Mein Kampf". Towards the end of the book, he does say that it would have been a good thing if several thousand Marxist leaders had been exposed to poison gas in the same as German soldiers had been at the front (and as he himself had been, having been temporarily blinded by gas). It is obvious from the context that Hitler means that those Marxist leaders should been sent to serve on the frontlines where they would have been exposed to all the dangers facers faced by common soldiers, instead of being allowed to remain at home where (allegedly) they were able to sabotage the German war effort from within.

Now Hitler does call the Marxist leaders "Hebrew corruptors of the people", consistent with his belief that Marxism was a Jewish invention and was propagated by Jews (a belief that was not wholly untrue, given that the Marxist parties in Germany were disproportionately led by persons of Jewish origin). However, his comment was directed against a specific small group, and not against the entire Jewish population.

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Re: Jewish "race"

#28

Post by wm » 03 Nov 2017, 08:56

DavidFrankenberg wrote:Was the food delivered in the ghettos by the Germans sufficient to maintain alive the Jews there between 1939 and june 1941 ?
Nobody in the occupied Eastern Europe was allocated sufficient food to survive more than several months, except people working directly for the German war industry.

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Re: Jewish "race"

#29

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 03 Nov 2017, 21:09

Gorque wrote:
DavidFrankenberg wrote:Was the food delivered in the ghettos by the Germans sufficient to maintain alive the Jews there between 1939 and june 1941 ?
Hi David:

First you used the time frame 39/40 and now you are using 1939 and June 1941. Why are you moving the goal posts? That's a very deceptive practice. Why did you do this?
Im sorry. I have memories of some massacre of jews before 41 in occupied Poland. I am unable to provide you some sources about it.
If i ask about the food delivered in the ghettos, it is simply to establish the deliberate intent of the Germans to starve this people to death as soon as 1940.
wm wrote:
DavidFrankenberg wrote:Was the food delivered in the ghettos by the Germans sufficient to maintain alive the Jews there between 1939 and june 1941 ?
Nobody in the occupied Eastern Europe was allocated sufficient food to survive more than several months, except people working directly for the German war industry.
Wassnt it a way to starve the people to death ? Isnt it relevant of the hitlerian conception of Europe : they all have to starve to death except Germans, only the Germans have to survive ?

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Re: Jewish "race"

#30

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 03 Nov 2017, 21:17

michael mills wrote:
The plan to Madagascar, like the plan to conquer England, were fantasies never seriously worked by Hitler, shaped for propaganda only in order to abuse his ennmy's naivety. It is the same mechanism which led Germans to send Jews into SU... of course the agreeents didnt specify the exchange of jews... but once again the nazis just wanted to abuse a bit more the possible naivety of their enemies.
That is historically incorrect. Conceptual plans for the transportation of 4 million Jews to Madagascar were developed by both the German Foreign office and by Eichmann's department in the RSHA. The full text of Eichmann's conceptual plan is extant, and I have previously posted translated excerpts from it on this forum. It is reasonable to assume that those plans had Hitler's support and were endorsed by him.

There is no reason to believe that the Madagascar Plan was not meant seriously, especially as the idea of transferring Jews to Madagascar was not originally conceived by the German National Socialists, but had been in existence for some time and had been considered by other governments, eg that of Poland. The reason it was not proceeded with is that Britain still controlled the ocean routes and could have prevented any movements from German-controlled Europe to Madagascar, or anywhere else for that matter.
That makes a big difference, isnt it ? Was Hitler not aware of it ? Of course he was. That's why this plan is just pure fantasy.
The date of the Final Solution's decision (the "Final Decision") is commonly accepted to be at autumn 41
That is simply a theory by some historians. Other historians place it at the end of 1941, after the entry of the United States into the war against Germany. Some even place it as late as May 1942.
Most of them place it at autumn/fall of 41.
Hitler was determined to kill all Jews. As soon as 1925 in Mein Kampf he think about killing massively the Jews 'in order to avoid another world war' (always the same trick of abusing naivety of everyone who is listening to him).
That is historically incorrect. Hitler does not advocate the killing of all Jews in "Mein Kampf". Towards the end of the book, he does say that it would have been a good thing if several thousand Marxist leaders had been exposed to poison gas in the same as German soldiers had been at the front (and as he himself had been, having been temporarily blinded by gas). It is obvious from the context that Hitler means that those Marxist leaders should been sent to serve on the frontlines where they would have been exposed to all the dangers facers faced by common soldiers, instead of being allowed to remain at home where (allegedly) they were able to sabotage the German war effort from within.
He doesnt talk about "marxist leaders" but about Jews.
Now Hitler does call the Marxist leaders "Hebrew corruptors of the people", consistent with his belief that Marxism was a Jewish invention and was propagated by Jews (a belief that was not wholly untrue, given that the Marxist parties in Germany were disproportionately led by persons of Jewish origin). However, his comment was directed against a specific small group, and not against the entire Jewish population.
"Hebrew corruptors of the people", absolutely : not marxist, but "hebrew" which is more close to Jews than anything else.

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