What purpose does Holocaust denial serve ?

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 27 May 2003 03:44

witness wrote:Sorry David . But I think we still need to define this term which Scott Smith periodically throws into discussions without caring to elaborate it's meaning.
Can you use a dictionary, witness?

Also, some background reading in interest-group politics might be helpful for you.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 27 May 2003 03:44, edited 1 time in total.

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witness
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Post by witness » 27 May 2003 03:44

Scott Smith wrote:
witness wrote:Throwing in an ambiguous term and then running away...being unable to explain it . :lol:
This term "Victimology" is absolutely empty and pretentious drivel having neither historical nor political or philosophical meaning whatsoever.. You are invited to prove the opposite Scott Smith.
I'm not responsible for your inability to understand the points I make.
:?
Your points are senseless simply because you are not able to defend what you say.
For example there is a definition for Scotology .
Why can not you give us a definition of the term you constantly use and which one could not find in a dictionary ? :)

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witness
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Post by witness » 27 May 2003 03:50

Actually I can help you with it .
VICTIMOLOGY the study of the victims of the crimes and the psycological effects on them .

Now can you tell us - what is so baaad in studying the crimes of Nazism and their psychological effects on the victims ?

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 27 May 2003 03:54

witness wrote:Why can not you give us a definition of the term you constantly use and which one could not find in a dictionary ?
I think you'd better use a bigger dictionary. Victimology is the study of crime victims, and I am using it particularly in the sense of group-psychology and interest-group politics. Scott did not coin the term or invent its usage. Furthermore, I believe that I did post a dictionary definition on the forum long ago and don't care to do it again. I'm not obligated to write to sixth-graders or people that won't do the homework they need to understand the points I make. One can lead a horse to water but one can't make him drink--and I don't really care if you drink or not. You have the right to disagree. Hence my ambivalence at your feigned perplexity.
:)

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 27 May 2003 04:04

witness wrote:Actually I can help you with it .
VICTIMOLOGY the study of the victims of the crimes and the psycological effects on them .

Now can you tell us - what is so baaad in studying the crimes of Nazism and their psychological effects on the victims ?
I never said it was bad unless it is wielded as a political tool in the context of interest-group politics. As I have explained before, to borrow from Orwell, all are Equal but some are "More-Equal" than others.

A simple paradigm is that the Zionists have the right to do what they want to the Palestinians because the world "owes" them Israel on account of the Holocaust.

However, my concern is more with American Interventionism and Christian apocalyptic messianism that distorts our foreign policy and engenders hatred of Americans. The Jews and Arabs can kill each other all they want as long as the USA is not stirring the pot as far as I'm concerned.

Other authors, including Holocaust promoters, have used the term as well--as witness would probably know if he was well-read in this area. Source? Well, I don't remember citations to everything that I read.
:)

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Andrew E. Mathis
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Post by Andrew E. Mathis » 27 May 2003 04:06

Scott Smith wrote:
David Thompson wrote:Scott -- I also believe that "what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander." If you have some evidence that Nizkor is a "Hate-Site," or that Nizkor links posted here contain "Hate-Site materials," let's see it.
Nizkor promotes the Holocaust™ which is Hate propaganda against Germans of the WWII era, if not of Gentiles in general.
Oh, Jeez Louise...

Only if one thinks that all Germans were Nazis -- which I categorically deny -- and that this is still the case -- which I also categorically deny -- then can the Holocaust be seen as hate propaganda against Germans. I don't even begin to see how it's hate propaganda against Gentiles, considering that half the victims were Gentiles.
Their mission statement is to promote the Gruelpropaganda of the war and to attack those who would seek to revise that orthodoxy.
Untrue. Yehuda Bauer has done major revisionism in the field of Holocaust studies and he is not attacked.
Historical inquiry and orthodoxy goes together like mischief and darness. Personally I don't care about Nizkor and what they believe, but if Hannover's forum or Revisionist sites are classed as Hate (except when Roberto links to them, it seems) then so is Nizkor.
False analogy. Sorry, pal.

a.m.

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witness
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Post by witness » 27 May 2003 04:07

Scott Smith wrote:
witness wrote:Why can not you give us a definition of the term you constantly use and which one could not find in a dictionary ?
I think you'd better use a bigger dictionary. Victimology is the study of crime victims, and I am using it particularly in the sense of group-psychology and interest-group politics. Scott did not coin the term or invent its usage. :)
Now here we go again
VICTIMOLOGY the study of the victims of the crimes and the psychological effects on them .
What exactly do you mean by your "in the sense of group-psychology and interest-group politics".?
What group psychology you imply here ?
The one which is more sympathetic to victims then perpetrators ? If so what is so baaad in this . Why one has to prefer it the other way around like you "the Nazis were the ggod guys " etc..?
One can lead a horse to water but one can't make him drink--and I don't really care if you drink or not.
You are using the empty words and calling it ''water " ?"Water" of
what ? Of some supreme Revisionist knowledge then "the Nazis and SS were the good guys " ? Guite a dirty water I would say. :)
Hence my ambivalence at your feigned perplexity.
No I am genuinly interested what drives such as you to repeat the same old garbage over and over again.
Last edited by witness on 27 May 2003 04:18, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by witness » 27 May 2003 04:14

Scott Smith wrote:A simple paradigm is that the Zionists have the right to do what they want to the Palestinians because the world "owes" them Israel on account of the Holocaust.
Who owes them and how ..? :D
"The world owes them " . Again you are putting your words in the mouth of an imaginary Jew and then you are being carried away with building up a distorted logic of biased opinion based on nothing else but these imaginary words...
Can you prove this statement now ?

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 27 May 2003 04:35

Andrew E. Mathis wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
David Thompson wrote:Scott -- I also believe that "what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander." If you have some evidence that Nizkor is a "Hate-Site," or that Nizkor links posted here contain "Hate-Site materials," let's see it.
Nizkor promotes the Holocaust™ which is Hate propaganda against Germans of the WWII era, if not of Gentiles in general.
Oh, Jeez Louise...

Only if one thinks that all Germans were Nazis -- which I categorically deny -- and that this is still the case -- which I also categorically deny --
All Germans were Nazis unless they were traitors prior to May, 1945 when Unconditional Surrender was imposed. The P-51s strafing Germans pulling carts or the Soviets assaulting refugees did not discriminate by Party membership. Then denazification and reeducation was imposed by the Victors. The new-regime was carried far into the postwar order and even reunification issues; for example, the War-Guilt for one if not two world wars is crucial to the German problem and any Denial of it is seen as illegal, anti-Semitic, or worse in some circles. Nizkor claims that all Revisionists are neo-Nazis. They are hardly objective regarding Hitler as can be seen from their mission statement.
then can the Holocaust be seen as hate propaganda against Germans. I don't even begin to see how it's hate propaganda against Gentiles, considering that half the victims were Gentiles.
Half the victims of the war or half the victims of the Nazis? Only Nazi atrocities matter, which is a philo-Semitic view of the war, let alone European history since the Nazis did not invent the Communists. I have read a lot of Jewish periodicals, Andrew, and I know that the "ecumenical" view of the Holocaust is just a necessary evil to dodge the argument that I just made. All of Jewish history is a sacrament about trouble with Gentiles, who are the enemies of a Peculiar People in the sight of God. The first Genocide was the Assyrian in the eighth century BC, unless you can think of another. I don't care about any of that and find Christian Biblical Fundamentalism more offensive personally, but Jews just do not realize how grating "Waving the Bloody Shirt" is to Gentiles. Unbrainwashed Germans get positively livid about it. Mormons had the same Peculiar People mentality and that's why they were driven out of the Gentile lands to their own Zion. They reintegrated with a different attitude. I am not saying that any violence against minorities was justified. Ever. Not even before or during the war. But to understand you have to treat difficult problems dispationately and try to understand other viewpoints.
Their mission statement is to promote the Greuelpropaganda of the war and to attack those who would seek to revise that orthodoxy.
Untrue. Yehuda Bauer has done major revisionism in the field of Holocaust studies and he is not attacked.
Good for him. I doubt he will do any revisionism on the gaschambers, however. It took me over two years to drag Roberto to the logical position that the diesel gaschambers must have been diesel generators for camp power and that if engines were really used for execution they must have been gasoline motors instead. A simple point but one that was resisted with all fours. No orthodoxy? Sure. nizkor never gave him permission. Then Chuck started to obsess about Human Soap. Nizkor never said it was poppycock so it must be true.
Historical inquiry and orthodoxy goes together like mischief and darkness. Personally I don't care about Nizkor and what they believe, but if Hannover's forum or Revisionist sites are classed as Hate (except when Roberto links to them, it seems) then so is Nizkor.
False analogy. Sorry, pal.
I don't understand your point. Revisionist sites are suspect and are now banned for reference it seems unless Roberto links to them. Nizkor remains Kosher and has all the answers. I don't want either Hannover or Nizkor telling me what history is Kosher.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 27 May 2003 05:13, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Scott Smith » 27 May 2003 04:37

witness wrote:Again you are putting your words in the mouth of an imaginary Jew and then you are being carried away with building up a distorted logic of biased opinion based on nothing else but these imaginary words...
Can you prove this statement?
:)

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Post by witness » 27 May 2003 04:52

Scott Smith wrote:
witness wrote:Again you are putting your words in the mouth of an imaginary Jew and then you are being carried away with building up a distorted logic of biased opinion based on nothing else but these imaginary words...
Can you prove this statement?
:)
Easy . Just reread your own posts full of baseless claims . :lol:

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 27 May 2003 05:05

witness wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
witness wrote:Again you are putting your words in the mouth of an imaginary Jew and then you are being carried away with building up a distorted logic of biased opinion based on nothing else but these imaginary words...
Can you prove this statement?
Easy . Just reread your own posts full of baseless claims . :lol:
That would be the logical fallacacy that Hannover is guilty of--that if some pundit cannot prove something then it must be false.

Now, you made a claim above. Can you prove it or not?
:D

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Post by witness » 27 May 2003 05:17

Scott Smith wrote:
witness wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
witness wrote:Again you are putting your words in the mouth of an imaginary Jew and then you are being carried away with building up a distorted logic of biased opinion based on nothing else but these imaginary words...
Can you prove this statement?
Easy . Just reread your own posts full of baseless claims . :lol:
That would be the logical fallacacy that Hannover is guilty of--that if some pundit cannot prove something then it must be false.

Now, you made a claim above. Can you prove it or not?
:D
Scott Smith wrote :
A simple paradigm is that the Zionists have the right to do what they want to the Palestinians because the world "owes" them Israel on account of the Holocaust.
Where did you get this '"simple paradigm "?
The answer is obvious -your own imagination .. unless you are able to prove that Jews (or whoever you deem to be the evil plotters such as the Christian fundamentalists from the Bible belt ) think that the whole world owes them because of the crimes of Nazism .
Now you made this claim. So it is your ball . Prove it .Can you ?

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Post by Scott Smith » 27 May 2003 05:27

witness wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
witness wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
witness wrote:Again you are putting your words in the mouth of an imaginary Jew and then you are being carried away with building up a distorted logic of biased opinion based on nothing else but these imaginary words...
Can you prove this statement?
Easy . Just reread your own posts full of baseless claims . :lol:
That would be the logical fallacacy that Hannover is guilty of--that if some pundit cannot prove something then it must be false.

Now, you made a claim above. Can you prove it or not?
:D
Scott Smith wrote :
A simple paradigm is that the Zionists have the right to do what they want to the Palestinians because the world "owes" them Israel on account of the Holocaust.
Where did you get this '"simple paradigm "?
From the first Zionist documentary that I ever watched in school and over 25 years of reading about Israel, the Holocaust and the Mid-East. I remember the terrorism at the Munich Olympics in 1972 and the 1973 Arab-Oil embargo and the question has interested me ever since.
The answer is obvious -your own imagination .. unless you are able to prove that Jews (or whoever you deem to be the evil plotters such as the Christian fundamentalists from the Bible belt ) think that the whole world owes them because of the crimes of Nazism .
I'm not going to go to the library to get you smoking-guns from what the Jews themselves have said about the issue. All you would have to do is say that this is some Jew's opinion. But as long as the Likkud Party rules Israel my point is valid and everybody with a modicum of understanding with this issue knows it.
Now you made this claim. So it is your ball . Prove it .Can you ?
You still can't prove that I made it up. Basically, whether my view is right or wrong (and I usually admit that I could be wrong) you don't know what you are talking about.
:)

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Post by David Thompson » 27 May 2003 05:31

Scott -- I wrote: "I also believe that "what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander." If you have some evidence that Nizkor is a "Hate-Site," or that Nizkor links posted here contain "Hate-Site materials," let's see it."

You responded: "Nizkor promotes the Holocaust™ which is Hate propaganda against Germans of the WWII era, if not of Gentiles in general. Their mission statement is to promote the Gruelpropaganda of the war and to attack those who would seek to revise that orthodoxy. Historical inquiry and orthodoxy goes together like mischief and darkness. Personally I don't care about Nizkor and what they believe, but if Hannover's forum or Revisionist sites are classed as Hate (except when Roberto links to them, it seems) then so is Nizkor."

I understand that's the argument, but I asked about evidence. Some links which illustrate the "Hate-Site" aspect of Nizkor would be welcome.

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