Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#16

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 06 Dec 2017, 14:16

ColinWright wrote: Second, you ignore the detail that 120 billion is more than the entire wealth of Germany, Jewish and gentile. One can certainly doubt the figure. It's probably hyperbole.
ColinWright wrote: The points are that even the figure of 119 billion for all expropriations leaves unanswered who got all that wealth, and it is kind of suspect number in the first place.
Please read the previous post : https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 1#p2111891
Thank you.

If 119 billion is the total of the amount of money "stolen" by Hitler in his occupied Europe, what is the part of the wealth stolen from the german jews ?

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#17

Post by wm » 06 Dec 2017, 18:21

This:
The plundering of the property of German Jews was accompanied by looting in the conquered territories, which reached at least 119 billion Marks through "war contributions" from the occupied and allied countries by May 1945 - about 30% of the Wehrmacht's needs.
is directly contradicted by The Wages of Destruction:
In 1943, the last full year of occupation, the combined deliveries to Germany of military equipment from France, Belgium, the Netherlands, the General Government, Denmark, Norway and Serbia amounted to only 9.3 per cent of total armaments production.
Only in ship-building, communications equipment and motor vehicles did the occupied territories make a notable contribution to the combat equipment of the Wehrmacht. In absolute terms, in 1943 all deliveries to the Wehrmacht from occupied Europe came to 4.6 billion Reichsmarks.
I'm rather sure that a large part of that 120 billion was food diverted to Germany from the occupied territories, not some mysterious Jewish gold or diamonds.

The Nazis, and in this case the Germans too, mostly benefited from all the Jewish furniture and clothes, with was usually given to bombed out Germans.
Because really how do you steal a tenement building, factory buildings, or a land property - those and gold were the most popular investment strategies, and where most of the Jewish money probably were. They couldn't move them to Germany after all.
Those properties changed owners for a few years but the Wehrmacht really didn't benefit from that.

And to be quite correct it wasn't the Nazis, but the communists who stole all the Jewish wealth. Post-war all the properties still legally belonged to their rightful owners, and then were quickly nationalized by the communists.

And not only post-war, for example the largest Polish radio manufacturing company Elektrit (and Jewish owned) was stolen by the Soviets in 1939 and became "Vyacheslav Molotov" Radio Factory (later Minsk Radio and Television Association "Horizont").
Lots of Jewish wealth actually was stolen by the Soviets as early as 1939, before the Nazis had the chance to lay their hands on it.


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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#18

Post by Gorque » 06 Dec 2017, 19:15

I'd opine that there is a comparison of apples and oranges taking place wherein "war contributions", i.e. legalized looting, and armaments production are being used as comparable units. The German occupation "war contributions" imposed upon the occupied nations of western Europe far exceeded the actual costs to the Wehrmacht, especially in regards to France. For the full years of '41 and '42, these costs, as a percentage of French GDP, were in the mid 30's and in '43, the mid 50's. Couple the occupation costs imposed upon the occupied western nations with the artificial enhancement of the Reichsmark vis-a-vis the local currency, and one can imagine the magnitude of wealth transferred from the aforementioned regions to the Reich.

https://eml.berkeley.edu/~webfac/eichen ... /white.pdf

See chart, page 3.

I cannot imagine that what was purloined from the Jews of Europe was was anywhere near to what was transferred through these "war contributions."

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#19

Post by Hoot » 19 Dec 2017, 01:01

In my opinion, one of the most important books on this subject is written by German historian Götz Aly; "Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State".
It explains a lot about the mindset of the current time and why the ordinary Germans conformed and supported the Nazi regime.
Not be mistaken here, which is often the case, this is not the only reason why things happened, but one of many. It should be seen, in my opinion, in that way.

Another interesting read is a story about so called Hitler's gifts or rather bribes to his top generals, from the Konto 5 account.
Good read on this subject is an article written by Norman Goda in The Journal of Modern History, pages 413–452, titled "Black Marks: Hitler's Bribery of his Senior Officers During World War II".
This part offers a pretty good insight why the top brass in the armed forces never protested pretty much anything and went along with the war of annihilation.

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#20

Post by michael mills » 28 Dec 2017, 01:28

As Goetz Aly has shown, most Jewish-owned small businesses in Germany, Austria and Czechia were simply closed down by the German National Socialist Government, rather than being transferred as going concerns to non-Jewish owners by the process of "aryanisation". In those cases, the wealth represented by those businesses, consisting of the market value derived from the capitalisation of their operating profits, simply vanished; it was not transferred to the German Government.

Since a large part of the Jewish "wealth" in Germany and Eastern Europe consisted of the value of such small businesses, the liquidation of those businesses did not result in any tangible assets that could be used to fund the German war effort. Thus, the aggregate amount of Jewish financial losses caused by German Government actions was by no means equivalent to an increase in the economic resources available for the German war effort.

The idea that Jewish economic losses represented a major contribution to the German war economy is therefore quite unsustainable.

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#21

Post by NickA » 03 Feb 2022, 23:31

wm wrote:
04 Dec 2017, 23:45
In 1937 the entire Germany's GDP was 74 billion Reichsmarks, so 120 billion is nonsense.
I worry about some of the "information" that's passed around. Some of it looks quite ridiculous. Surely, nobody would be taken in?
wm wrote:
04 Dec 2017, 23:45
Another nonsense is that the confiscated Jewish wealth helped fund the German war effort.
As best I can see, the "Transfer Agreement", as first agreed by the Zionist Conference of August 1933, sent *all* of the wealth of Jewish Germans to Tel-Aviv. None of it was to go to Hitler or his regime.

This was a bit farcical, one could transfer one's wealth in gold - but only if your wealth was based on gold and you physically possessed it.

But if your wealth was denominated in Reichsmark (even if the Nazi regime lifted the kind of currency controls common at the time) you could only really make it appear in Palestine with a deal something like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement#Hanotea_company wrote:Hanotea (הַנּוֹטֵעַ‎, "the Planter") was a citrus planting company based in Netanya and established in 1929 ... In a deal worked out with the Reich Economics Ministry, the blocked German bank accounts of prospective immigrants would be unblocked and funds from them used by Hanotea to buy agricultural German goods; these goods, along with the immigrants, would then be shipped to Palestine, and the immigrants would be granted a house or citrus plantation by the company to the same value.[14] Hanotea's director, Sam Cohen, represented the company in direct negotiation with the Reich Economics Ministry beginning in March 1933.[15] In May 1933 Hanotea applied for permission to transfer capital from Germany to Palestine.[15] This pilot arrangement appeared to be operating successfully,[citation needed] and so paved the way for the later Haavara Agreement.
Notice something? The German government got nothing atall from this arrangement (as I posted above). However, Jewish money was clearly paying for the materials in all those Mercedes and Leika cameras. German manufacturers were turning some small profit (though at this stage, not very much).
wm wrote:
04 Dec 2017, 23:45
The Jewish wealth didn't improve the state of the German economy for the reason it had been a part of the economy already. From the economic point of view the confiscation was like rearranging the deck chairs on the Nazi Titanic.
I agree. HItler and the German government made nothing atall in 1933 - however, once the biggest fortunes had gone they started taking a share and this slowly became the Holocaust in Eastern Europe. Maybe in Poland, maybe in Slovakia and elsewhere and most definitely in Hungary, where the deportations only started in April 1944 and were stopped in July 1944 (interesting story there). By that time, 437,000 Hungarian Jews had been tricked onto the Auschwitz gas-chamber trains (interesting story there).

The wealth of the Hungarian Jews was so enormous but the chaos of the Reich collapse was so evident that the "Gold Train" intended to enrich Berlin presumably never got there. Kurt Becher (top Nazi enforcer and thief, mysteriously free to become very wealthy in Germany in the 1950s) was captured as reported here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kHpGSYf27HgC wrote:"Nazi Millionaires: The Allied Search for Hidden SS Gold" By Kenneth Alford, Theodore P. Savas, 2007, p.188

The Allies were mopping up the last remaining pockets of organized German resistance when Kurt Becher drove up to the ominous gate of Mauthausen, a concentration camp in Austria ... sought out Dr. Nicholaus Mosche Schweiger, an inmate who had lived within the barbed wire enclosure for a long while. Dr. Schweiger had been a member of the Relief and Rescue Committee, an organization founded by Dr. Israel Rezso (Rudolph) Kastner ostensibly to help European Jews escape the clutches of the Nazis.

... To Schweiger's surprise, this meeting proved the exception. The Mauthausen mission was to free Schweiger. Becher's benefaction was delivered with one eye on his ambiguous past, the other on an uncertain future. The doctor accompanied Beckr to his car where, to his surprise, several boxes of gold and jewels were presented to him. Freedom, even in May 1945, came with a price: the safe transport of the fortune to Dr. Kastner in Switzerland. Becher also asked Schweiger to write out and sign a letter attesting to the fact that his wartime activities had permitted large numbers of Jews to escape from Hungary and thus certain death.

... The agents fanned out and searched the premises. One entered a bedroom. When he knelt down and looked under a bed his jaw probably dropped open in disbelief. Like fiery dragons of myth and lore, Becher had been sleeping atop a king's ransom. The agent pulled out solid gold in the form of four plates and eight bars weighing more than twenty pounds. Platinum plates, platinum wrist watches, two hundred and six diamond rings, diamond earrings and bracelets and much more. The whole cache required four pages just to inventory. Dr. Schweiger, who had remained behind when Becher was sent away, told the agents "he was liberated from a concentration camp by Becher." He, too, was in possession of a large amount of English pound notes. All of the seized valuables were turned over to Lieutenant Colonel Homer Keller, Property Control Officer of Salzburg. The loot was assigned the property number S3.3002 SA. In his report, which was filed in Bad lschl, the arresting CIC agent noted that "Becher was in charge of transferring Jewish goods from Hungary ... [he] is a very dangerous subject in this respect."2
Meanwhile, the real power behind the deportation of the Hungarian Jews was Rudolf Kastner - what was in it for him? Did a big portion of the wealth on board the "Gold Train" go to Tel-Aviv too?

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#22

Post by wm » 04 Feb 2022, 19:37

NickA wrote:
03 Feb 2022, 23:31
As best I can see, the "Transfer Agreement", as first agreed by the Zionist Conference of August 1933, sent *all* of the wealth of Jewish Germans to Tel-Aviv. None of it was to go to Hitler or his regime.
The Transfer Agreement was (enormously) beneficial to Germany.
The most significant benefit was that the planned Jewish boycott (official, the unofficial continued) of Nazi Germany wasn't declared.
The slogan of the boycott was "Germany will crack in the winter" - the "cracking" was a real possibility and sent German leadership into panic.
But Jewish leaders realized that Jewish Palestine, or rather its vulnerable, depended on trade with Germany, economy would crack too.

Additionally, the Jewish wealth was transferred as goods. Jewish goods were sold in Germany; German goods were sold in Palestine (but not only).
The export of German goods (impossible otherwise) helped stabilize the German economy and provided work.
The import of Jewish goods (especially fruits) helped improve German morale at a rather crucial point in history.

The confiscated Jewish wealth didn't help, but the Transfer Agreement actually enabled the future German rearmament.

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#23

Post by NickA » 06 Feb 2022, 12:34

NickA wrote:
03 Feb 2022, 23:31
As best I can see, the "Transfer Agreement", as first agreed by the Zionist Conference of August 1933, sent *all* of the wealth of Jewish Germans to Tel-Aviv. None of it was to go to Hitler or his regime.
wm wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 19:37
The Transfer Agreement was (enormously) beneficial to Germany. The most significant benefit was that the planned Jewish boycott (official, the unofficial continued) of Nazi Germany wasn't declared. The slogan of the boycott was "Germany will crack in the winter" - the "cracking" was a real possibility and sent German leadership into panic. The export of German goods (impossible otherwise) helped stabilize the German economy and provided work.
You make it sound as if the Nazis were blackmailed into forcing all Jewish wealth from Germany in order to benefit the Zionists and their colony in Palestine. I'd not dispute what you say.
wm wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 19:37
But Jewish leaders realized that Jewish Palestine, or rather its vulnerable, depended on trade with Germany, economy would crack too.
I think you've missed something - what you call "Jewish Palestine" (but I think should be properly called something like "Zionist colonial Palestine" or the Yishuv) was failing after Herbert Samuel left there in 1925.

The new High Commissioners were Herbert Onslow Plumer and then John Herbert Chancellor from 1928–31. There would be no more British money for road-building between fortified settlements by newly immigrant labour, less money for immigrant schools and no more weapons with which to rob the natives.

By 1930, with the global turndown, the ghastly colonial experiment was failing - and the British were standing up to the Zionists, who renounced any claim to the Western Wall and the Haram al-Sharif. (Look it up - https://www.academia.edu/14523912/1930_ ... _Jerusalem - "The Commission has to pronounce a verdict on the Jewish claims, and the Jews do not claim any proprietorship to the Wall or to the Pavement in front of it (concluding speech of Jewish Counsel, Minutes, page 908).")

The looming bankruptcy of the Yishuv could explain the plan, already being plotted in 1932 by Stephen Wise (ie before Hitler was in power and, as it happens, before the most serious effects of the depression hit Germany) to rob the notoriously ungrateful and anti-Zionist Jews of Germany to fund the Yishuv.
wm wrote:
04 Feb 2022, 19:37
Additionally, the Jewish wealth was transferred as goods. Jewish goods were sold in Germany; German goods were sold in Palestine (but not only). The confiscated Jewish wealth didn't help, but the Transfer Agreement actually enabled the future German rearmament. ... The import of Jewish goods (especially fruits) helped improve German morale at a rather crucial point in history.
Essentially, the Yishuv became an agent for all of Germany's exports, using Jewish German wealth and pocketing most of the proceeds (the Germans who'd transferred their money were prevented from following it! If they did get to Palestine legally, they'd only get some stolen land and the tools to cultivate it.

The Germans got nothing back - fruit was bought and sold on the open market and at a market rate - and most of it wasn't immigrant, it was native.

Something else you'll not have known - the settlers had been well funded after 1920 to bring in and use new diesel powered water pumps for their citrus while the natives were blocked from accessing credit (see my posting here - viewtopic.php?p=2391221#p2391221 )

These new pumps ruined parts of the world-beating native cultivation of citrus around Tel-Aviv by lowering the water table, enabling the very violence-prone Polish and Russian settlers to "buy" lots more land. (Greatly helped by the 10 changes in land-law made by Herbert Samuel between 1920 and 1925). But the agricultural efforts of the immigrants was dire before the pumps and the tractors - and it was still very poor (soft hands and round tummy syndrome). That's why the Yishuv was failing in 1930 and the Zionists looked round for money they could steal. Israel was desperately short of food after 1948 and it enslaved very large numbers of the Palestinians, of the dark-skinned Jews (even the very middle-class Iraqi Jews!) and idealistic college kids from Europe. Convincing them that working for nothing was good in canteens plastered with posters of Stalin.

Worth noting - the great majority of the agricultural produce in the fertile region was still done by natives until 1948 and beyond - Germany surely bought fruit from Palestine (as it had been doing for some generations) but it was probably from the natives.

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#24

Post by wm » 06 Feb 2022, 14:44

I'm not sure the Nazis were blackmailed into the Agreement. After all, Hitler wanted Germany as free from the Jews as possible.
And the Agreement was the cheapest and surest way to achieve that.
The thing the Nazis were forced to - was to abandon their counter-boycott, basically at gunpoint.

I don't think all the wealth of Jewish Germans was transferred, I've read it was about 60 percent survived to the end - the rest was various transaction costs and the flight tax.
But the initial plans were even worse, the immigrants were going to be given plots of land - not their money, so they wouldn't be able to abandon Palestine - something reasonable people with money would gladly do.

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#25

Post by NickA » 06 Feb 2022, 18:22

wm wrote:
06 Feb 2022, 14:44
I'm not sure the Nazis were blackmailed into the Agreement. After all, Hitler wanted Germany as free from the Jews as possible.
Its difficult to be sure what the 21 points (or his prison manifesto, chunks plagiarised from his great hero, Henry Ford). Neither were ever mentioned again. The American original was the "The International Jew" of 1920 and sold very well (though with considerable help) whereas Mein Kampf in 1924/1925 sold quite poorly until Hitler was in power 8 years later, when it was adopted as a "scripture" that nobody read but looked good on the bookshelf of each new German mother. Hitler needed Mein Kampf in order to claim to be a "successful writer" and explain where his otherwise totally mysterious wealth was coming from. (Interesting stories behind that - but astonishingly little hard research).

I'm not aware it was ever treated as a blueprint for expulsion and the timescale seems wrong. The last thing that Germany, desperately in trouble from the depression (30% unemployment), needed was another blow to its economy. As you said, the threat to the economy came from the Zionist boycott - and it was huge.

Hitlers first threats were not expulsion but extermination, they were uttered in January 1939. The web reminds me that a) that was new and b) it was also unexpected /unbelieved/ unbelievable. Nobody took any notice - there certainly would be no war on behalf of the Jews. Nor any protest.
https://forward.com/culture/418459/80-years-ago-today-hitler-threatened-genocide-of-european-jews-for-the/ wrote:January 30, 1939. Adolf Hitler had been chancellor of Germany for exactly six years. Thousands of Jews were already imprisoned in concentration camps. Legally defined as anyone possessing at least one Jewish grandparent, Jews were prohibited from marrying so-called Aryans, and had their businesses destroyed. But his annual speech to the Reichstag, Germany’s legislative body, delivered as usual on the anniversary of his election to the chancellorship, was the first time Hitler publicly called for the annihilation of the Jewish people in Europe.

... At the time, the remark was barely noted. The New York Times, publishing excerpts from the official English translation of the speech, did not include this first hint at the Final Solution in its summary of “Hitler’s Salient Points.” ... on February 4, The Times’s Otto D. Tolischus referred to the speech as “more moderate in tone than most of [Hitler’s] speeches,” ... did not mention the comments about Jews.
And the Agreement was the cheapest and surest way to achieve that.

I thought you told me, from a reading of Edwin Black's "Transfer Agreement", that Ha'avara was forced on Hitler by the Zionists.

The Nazis may have been forced to abandon their counter-boycott - but we've no evidence of that. April 1st 1933 was a Saturday, the Sabbath, practising Jews approved of shutting down Jewish shops on that day. (Look it up here - https://www.dayoftheweek.org/?m=April&d=1&y=1933&go=Go )
wm wrote:
06 Feb 2022, 14:44
I don't think all the wealth of Jewish Germans was transferred, I've read it was about 60 percent survived to the end - the rest was various transaction costs and the flight tax.
The original agreement gave absolutely nothing to the Nazi regime. (Please challenge me if I'm wrong about that). In practise, money had to go to Germany because the manufacturers of Mercedes and Leika cameras had to pay for materials - but even then, none of it was supposed to go to Hitler.
Francis R. J. Nicosia - "The Third Reich and the Palestine Question" - Development of the Haavara Transfer Agreement wrote:p.38 ... Sam Cohen of Hanotaiah Ltd. of Tel Aviv, a private citrus growing company, had negotiated an agreement with the Ministry of Economics in Berlin in March, 1933. It provided for the transfer to Palestine of RM 1 million belonging to German Jews in the form of equipment for citrus groves, to be purchased in Germany and sold on the Palestine market.57 For Zionists in Palestine, the Jews from Germany, along with their assets in the form of goods to be transferred from Germany to Palestine, represented a stimulus for the development of the country. This was recognized at the Eighteenth World Zionist Congress in Prague in August-September, 1933, where resolutions supporting the worldwide boycott of Germany were rejected in favor of the transfer approach.58
Nicosia doesn't actually say as much but my interpretation is that Sam Coheh had been negotiating to steal the assets of the German Jews before the Nazi revolution (9th/10th March 1933 takeover of town halls). The Nazi revolution came after after Roosevelt's revolution/takeover of the American banking system and all the money of all Americans (5th to 13th March 1933) but for the same desperate financial reasons. Both revolutions used slavery (US - Hoover Dam, Germany, autobahns) to rescue the economy.

Strikingly, this was one of two agreements the Nazis were prepared to sign - because Chaim Arlosoroff had (or maybe planned?) to negotiate a different agreement that was, presumably, too good for the German Jews and deprived the Zionists of their massive share of the stolen money.

As we know, Arlosoroff was accidentally murdered on Tel Aviv beach in June 1933 and it was Sam Cohen's agreement that was finalised by the Zionist Congress on 25 August 1933. (Details hastily retracted from the official report of the Congress, says Nicosia).

The Zionists had rescued their failing colonial project with an audacious hijack of almost all the wealth of the German Jews - have I missed something?

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#26

Post by nota » 10 Feb 2022, 05:17

I would say VERY VERY LITTLE WENT TO FUND THE WAR

sure lots of stuff was stolen
the fat flyers stash is a good example DF office gave the power
so lots of art grabbed by him billions at current value eazy
not much sold
even less maybe none went to fund the war in any way
warehouse full found post war
so lots of art stolen little if any sold or funded the war
lots of minions to copy the leaderships actions
so lots of stolen stuff but very limited war production results
maybe net negative with other losses like gas used or truck warehouse or lots of other non war thief actions ?

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#27

Post by David Thompson » 10 Feb 2022, 22:51

nota -- If you have any sources or authority for your claims please provide them when you post here. From the H&WC section rules:
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viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#28

Post by nota » 11 Feb 2022, 05:49

you are asking for sites on things I consider very well documented
ie common knowledge

both in results [huge stash of art found post war] newspapers at the time
resent movies and story of art found in past to very resent by owners and court contests to recover the art

I can't prove negatives but the FACT so much art was found post war that little was sold if the art is still there

and if little was sold little went to pay for the war

I really post only about art not money gold jewels real estate or other things

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#29

Post by wm » 15 Feb 2022, 23:36

NickA wrote:
06 Feb 2022, 18:22
I'm not aware it was ever treated as a blueprint for expulsion and the timescale seems wrong. The last thing that Germany, desperately in trouble from the depression (30% unemployment), needed was another blow to its economy. As you said, the threat to the economy came from the Zionist boycott - and it was huge.
It was the Jews, organized labor, and more. At the same time, the Holodomor happened, but the Holodomor got a few small articles relegated to the back pages. The front pages were occupied by Jewish politics - they actually had lots of support and visibility.

NickA wrote:
06 Feb 2022, 18:22
Hitlers first threats were not expulsion but extermination, they were uttered in January 1939.
Although till 1941 Hitler and Himmler fully supported the emigration of all Jews from controlled by Germany territories.

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Re: Confiscated Jewish wealth 'helped fund the German war effort'

#30

Post by wm » 16 Feb 2022, 00:15

NickA wrote:
06 Feb 2022, 18:22
As we know, Arlosoroff was accidentally murdered on Tel Aviv beach in June 1933 and it was Sam Cohen's agreement that was finalised by the Zionist Congress on 25 August 1933. (Details hastily retracted from the official report of the Congress, says Nicosia).
Haim Arlosoroff was supposedly assassinated by Jewish fanatics for his cooperation with the British and the Arabs.
Arlosoroff and Cohen negotiated with the Nazis in parallel, but eventually, the limited (benefiting only a single Jewish company in Palestine) Cohen's deal was rejected.

NickA wrote:
06 Feb 2022, 18:22
The Zionists had rescued their failing colonial project with an audacious hijack of almost all the wealth of the German Jews - have I missed something?
As Palestine-based companies were involved they could have only offered benefits based on their own Palestinian assets. But in the end, non-Palestinian transfers were possible too.

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