Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

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Yuli
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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#106

Post by Yuli » 17 Jan 2018, 22:17

David Green:
Please note that as far as the Germans were aware only five Jews arrived at Auschwitz on KHM's RSHA transport. 1x male (No. 112272) and 4x females (Nos. 39837-39839 and 39852).
I suggest KHM like Zywulska kept her Jewish identity secret and was held in Auschwitz as an ordinary Polish political prisoner.
It seems very likely this is the case. In her book "Return to Auschwitz", KHM tells that when arriving in Germany after escaping the Ghetto she assumed a false Polish identity - Leokadia Dobrzynska (page 57) - but when captured by the Gestapo her Jewish identity and her real name - Kitty Felix - were revealed (page 69). However, later in the story it becomes unclear whether she was deported (reportedly from a prison in Dresden), as a Jew or as a political prisoner. According to KHM, her transport included Russian women and German gypsies among others. So it was definitely not a pure Jewish transport. I looked up some names of prisoners in her presumed transport (arriving April 2, 1943) in the list provided by AB Museum Archive - e.g., Maria Mlodzik (39845), Maria Matlak (39847), Maria Orlicka (38949), Franciszka Remosz (39853), Stanislawa Krolikowska (39855) - definitely not Jewish names.

It is indeed strange that her book does not address clearly her Jewish or false Polish identity in Auschwitz. Yet, in one place in her book she portrays herself as a political prisoner. This is when she tells about being spotted by the SS man Bedarf writing a letter - a forbidden act. Her Kapo gets her off the hook by telling the SS man that she is a political prisoner writing to her mother, who is also a political prisoner (p. 159).

I once read a testimony by a women imprisoned in Pawiak as a Jew and then deported to Majdanek with a group of Polish political prisoners. She was lucky to be admitted there as Pole. So KHM and her mother may be similar cases.

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wm
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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#107

Post by wm » 17 Jan 2018, 23:02

Yuli wrote: Maria Mlodzik (39845), Maria Matlak (39847), Maria Orlicka (38949), Franciszka Remosz (39853), Stanislawa Krolikowska (39855) - definitely not Jewish names.
Many Polish Jews didn't have Jewish names.
Yuli wrote: This is when she tells about being spotted by the SS man Bedarf writing a letter - a forbidden act.
But letters weren't forbidden, at times it was mandatory to write letters home at regular intervals.


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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#108

Post by Sergey Romanov » 18 Jan 2018, 09:12

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Sergey Romanov,

You do know "euthanasia" means "good death"?

It doesn't strike me that "good death" applies to anyone in Nazi custody, including the disabled, who was done to death without consulting them or their families.

Cheers,

Sid.
And?

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#109

Post by Sergey Romanov » 18 Jan 2018, 09:22

A word of caution: Czech saying that so and so many on the transport were registered as Jewish prisoners does *not* automatically mean the rest were not. Only that those she mentions were, nothing else.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#110

Post by Sergey Romanov » 18 Jan 2018, 09:38

Prisoners in the Bergen-Belsen Concentration Camp

FELIX, Kitty 01.12.1926
Bielsko 14.04.1945
Salzwedel


FELIX, Rosa 18.02.1890
14.04.1945
Salzwedel


Pinkas HaNitzolim I - Register of Jewish Survivors

FELIX, Kitty Year Born: 26 Bielitz
Jewish Survivors Liberated from the Salzwedel Camp - 33 283

FELIX, Roza Year Born: 18 Bielitz
Jewish Survivors Liberated from the Salzwedel Camp - 33 283

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wm
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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#111

Post by wm » 18 Jan 2018, 12:09

wm wrote:
Yuli wrote: This is when she tells about being spotted by the SS man Bedarf writing a letter - a forbidden act.
But letters weren't forbidden, at times it was mandatory to write letters home at regular intervals.
Well, to be correct - the Jews were never allowed to write letters, so maybe it's a clue.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#112

Post by history1 » 18 Jan 2018, 12:14

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Michael,
Thanks. I have already checked out the so-called "Porajmos". I already knew that the Gypsies were part of the Nazi extermination campaign,[...]

Cheers,
Sid
I wonder about your continuose use of this offending swearword insteadt "Roma" or "Sinti".

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#113

Post by Yuli » 18 Jan 2018, 12:19

wm:
Yuli wrote:
Maria Mlodzik (39845), Maria Matlak (39847), Maria Orlicka (38949), Franciszka Remosz (39853), Stanislawa Krolikowska (39855) - definitely not Jewish names.

Many Polish Jews didn't have Jewish names.
Yes, of course, some Polish Jews did have definitly not Jewish names. But if you check the available names in this transport, almost all of the names are such. So together with KHM's testimony of having Russion and German gypsies women on board, it is very likely the transport comprised different sorts of prisoners.

wm:
Yuli wrote:
This is when she tells about being spotted by the SS man Bedarf writing a letter - a forbidden act.

But letters weren't forbidden, at times it was mandatory to write letters home at regular intervals.
In this case it was a letter to be distributed within different sectors of Birkenau, which I believe was forbidden and punishable by death.

BTW, Jewish prisoneres in Auscwitz-Birkenau were not allowed to write letters home or receive parcels.
Zofia Kossak, Z otchłani: Wspomnienia z Lagru, Czestochowa/Poznan, 1946, p. 112

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#114

Post by history1 » 18 Jan 2018, 12:23

seaburn wrote:It's disheartening to see how this interesting thread has been hi-jacked despite the faux declaration to desist from veering it off topic.[...]
True. That´s why I reported it and asked to delete the OT posts or to make an additional thread from them, days ago. But the responsible mod of this subforum, David Thompson, did nothing except that he closed my report.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#115

Post by history1 » 18 Jan 2018, 12:27

Sergey Romanov wrote:A word of caution: Czech saying that so and so many on the transport were registered as Jewish prisoners does *not* automatically mean the rest were not. Only that those she mentions were, nothing else.
A word of caution: Czech doesn´t only state that x Jews from the transport were registered but also that the rest, y Jews, went to the crematoriums or was gassed.
At least in my volume.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#116

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Jan 2018, 19:38

Hi David Green,

In case you were inadvertently referring to me, I would offer you the following timeline:

My first post was directed exclusively at the subject of the thread. (See - Sid Guttridge 12 Jan 2018 17:02)

Another poster, Seaburn, chose to quibble about my turn of phrase and asked me a direct question in a post completely unrelated to Kitty Hart-Moxon. (See - seaburn 12 Jan 2018 18:50)

I replied. (See - Sid Guttridge 14 Jan 2018 14:35)

I was certainly a fellow traveller on the diversion, but I was not the initiator.

I have no objection to moderators culling any irrelevances that followed my on-thread post of 2 Jan 2018 17:02, be they my own or anyone else's.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#117

Post by Sergey Romanov » 18 Jan 2018, 21:37

history1 wrote:
Sergey Romanov wrote:A word of caution: Czech saying that so and so many on the transport were registered as Jewish prisoners does *not* automatically mean the rest were not. Only that those she mentions were, nothing else.
A word of caution: Czech doesn´t only state that x Jews from the transport were registered but also that the rest, y Jews, went to the crematoriums or was gassed.
At least in my volume.
Well, in mine she doesn't state this in this entry so I'm not sure what you mean.

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#118

Post by Sergey Romanov » 18 Jan 2018, 21:57

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Hart-Moxon

Allmählich dämmerte es Kitty und ihrer Mutter, dass sie eine Überlebenschance hätten, wenn sie ihren jüdischen Ursprung und die Herkunft der Dokumente weiterhin verschwiegen. Sie wurden als politische Häftlinge in das KZ Auschwitz-Birkenau deportiert und kamen am 12. April 1943 dort an. Auschwitz war kaum 50 Kilometer von ihrer Heimatstadt Bielsko entfernt.[4]

vgl. Hart-Moxon: Wo die Hoffnung erfriert. Überleben in Auschwitz, Leipzig 2001, S.80-86

Yuli
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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#119

Post by Yuli » 19 Jan 2018, 13:49

Google translation of Sergey's post from German Wikipedia:
Gradually, it dawned on Kitty and her mother that they would have a chance of survival if they continued to conceal their Jewish origins and the source of the documents. They were deported as political prisoners to Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp and arrived there on April 12, 1943. Auschwitz was hardly 50 kilometers away from their hometown Bielsko. [4]
see. Hart-Moxon: Where hope freezes. Survival in Auschwitz, Leipzig 2001, pp. 80-86

In the English version of "Return to Auschwitz" the Jewish identity of KHM and her mother and the possession of false documents was revealed at Gestapo headqurters in Bitterfeld (page 69), where they were interrogated but refused to disclose the source of the documents. Then they were transported to prisons in Halle (page 72), then Leipzig (page 73) and then Dresden (page 74). In all these prisons they were interrogated by the Gestapo without torture (one slap is mentioned) about the source of the forged documents but kept their secret. Then before being deported to Auschwitz they were told in Dresden prison: "we're handling you over to the camp Gestapo. They'll know how to sort you out" (page 75). The camp being Auschwitz-Birkenau.

The issue of the forged documents is no longer mentioned after arrival to Birkenau.

In the description of their stay at Halle prison KHM writes: "I think it was then that it dawned on me that Mother and I stood a chance of staying alive as long as we could keep our secret. The methodical Germans wanted a neat and satisfactory answer to their question. While we were still breathing and able to provide it, they would want the annoying gap in their records filled".

According to KHM description the Gestapo in Dresden knew about her Jewish identity and it is unlikely she still kept her forged Polish papers that they were keen about. So how did she and her mother arrive in Birkenau as political prisoners (presumabely because they entered the Reich unlawfully)? This is not explained, but there is a sentence later on that is very relevant: "...having a record as a political criminal, Jewish or not, we had somehow been 'processed' in a different way by the meticulous organizers" (page 90-91).

So was she registered as a Jewish political prisoner, a more priviliged prisoner than a "reguler" Jew? No such catagory to my knowledge. Another big question mark!

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Re: Is Kitty Hart-Moxon a plagiarist?

#120

Post by history1 » 19 Jan 2018, 18:24

There was no inmate group of "Jewish political prisoner". It happened that a Jew was part of the Polish resistance and imprisoned with them as eg. Polish political prisoner. But when the German knew about her ancestry it´s, IMHO, very unlikely being send into a concentration camp as political inmate. The less as a "privileged prisoner". Right contrary people who did try to hide that they were Jews and passed off as aryan got often beaten right on their arrival in the camp.

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