Which of German death camps was Polish ???

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Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#1

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 29 Jan 2018, 17:51

I'm so curious, apparently at least one of German death camps was in fact Polish:

https://twitter.com/yairlapid?ref_src=t ... srael.html

Image

I wonder which one.

I contacted Ewa Bazan from KL Auschwitz museum asking her about the fate of my relative who was killed there on Saint Stephen's Day in 1943. She found her death certificate, and it was written in German (why would a Polish camp issue documents in German language?):

http://www.auschwitz.org/kontakt/ewa-ba ... d_dzialu=3

Image

So maybe another death camp was Polish and its documents were written in Polish?

Please tell me which one was that? Name it. Or post geographical coordinates.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#2

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 29 Jan 2018, 18:22

This is how a KL Auschwitz Totenbuch looks like, as you can see it is written in German:

http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/about-th ... chwitz-iii

So I'm still waiting for that Israeli guy to show me documents from Polish death camps.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.


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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#3

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 29 Jan 2018, 18:57

Claims that Poles were supposedly more antisemitic than other Europeans or collaborated with German occupiers more often than others, are "anecdotal evidence" - and even if true, it has nothing to do with who was running those death camps - Germany or Poland. This new Polish law aims at penalizing claims that deaths camps were operated by the independent Polish state and/or by ethnic Poles. It does not penalize any other claim about Polish collaborators or Anti-Semites. Curiously Jewish historian David Solomon did not mention Poland as a particularly Anti-Semitic nation, he mentioned Germany. Fragment from 55:50 onwards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUlM2a2tsOM#t=3350

"(...) The Shoah is not an isolated event. The project to exterminate the Jews of Germany happens here [pointing at the timeline of history], and here, and here, and here, and here, and here. And so people say - so why did Jews keep going back to Germany? Why did Jews keep going back? And I say - look at your own generation. Only half a century after the Holocaust, and what is the largest growing Jewish community in the world outside of Israel? It's Germany. And yet surely the lesson of this entire wall [pointing at the timeline of history] is that Jews should not be living in Germany. We hope and we pray... in the end of the day, in hundreds of years from now, I'm hoping that... well, if I'm starting to explain that more I'm gonna get further and further into problem, so I'm gonna stop, let's go back to history (...)"

It is well known that many Ashkenazi Jews still secretely love Germans and feel close to them (at least closer than to Slavic nations), so they want to white-wash Germany. It's still hard for them to believe that those civilized and cultured Germans could be so barbaric, inhumane and cruel. It's better to blame poor illiterate Polish peasants instead of blaming "Ashkenaz" (Ashkenaz means Germany).

Jochen Böhler in his book "Auftakt zum Vernichtungskrieg: Die Wehrmacht in Polen 1939" even quoted testimonies of some German soldiers from September 1939, which say that Jewish population in many towns welcomed German invaders in a rather friendly way. They could not see what was coming, many of them were probably ignorant of what was happening with Jews in Germany. They expected German occupation to be like it was back in 1915-1918, after the Gorlice-Tarnów Offensive.

Guess what, in 1915-1918 Polish Jews were not exterminated in Polish death camps.

And in those years entire Poland was occupied by Germany and Austria-Hungary.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#4

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Jan 2018, 20:03

Lapid is an ignorant douche.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#5

Post by Waleed Y. Majeed » 29 Jan 2018, 20:35

Not quite sure how to understand parts of the law proposal. Found this mentioning "Article 55a, clause 1-3
http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/3465 ... -Holocaust
Does this mean the 2012 film "Aftermath" is exempt for artistic reasons (changing name of place too), but I would be procecuted if I say it's based on what really happened in 1941 in the village of Jedwabne?
Not arguing that Poland suffered terribly during WW2. I'm just questioning the law and why the need in a democratic country.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#6

Post by wm » 29 Jan 2018, 23:02

The law is stupid and unnecessary (although generally harmless), unfortunately today lots of people, especially liberals don't believe in freedom of speech.
Don't try to understand it, on this stage such laws never resemble their final versions.

The freedoms of speech must be accorded to the ideas we hate or sooner or later they will be denied to the ideas we cherish.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#7

Post by wm » 29 Jan 2018, 23:42

Peter K wrote:Claims that Poles were supposedly more antisemitic than other Europeans or collaborated with German occupiers more often than others, are "anecdotal evidence"
Poland wasn't especially antisemitic, it could be even argued on average was quite philosemitic (it seems documents from the Ringelblum's Archive support this point quite nicely) - considering that about 70 percent of her citizens (i.e. the peasants) didn't give a damn about the Jews and the Jewish question, and considered them a genuine part of the scenery (with minor exceptions), and their own enemies mainly sought among Polish elites (during the bloody and extreme brutal peasants strikes of 1937 no Jew was harmed).

But the impoverish pre-war Poland was a sh.tty place where it was easy to be robbed and killed (thanks to the destructive culture of the poor) - especially if you were defenseless. The mass murders that happened there almost every month are quite unbelievable today.
Pre-war mostly the Polish poor were "enjoying" that their own destructive culture, after 1941 when the Holocaust started, the Jews (generally a part of the Polish middle class, or Polish elites and unaware of the "real life") were given a taste of it too.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#8

Post by Sheldrake » 30 Jan 2018, 03:00

There is evidence that some of the population of Eastern Europe took part in the holocaust, for example, in Lithuania and the Ukraine. When the Germans invaded in 1941 they found at least part of the population saw the Germans as liberators.

Poland was different. Poland was occupied from 1939. The Polish population were ethnically cleansed from parts of Poland that the Germans wanted to settle. The Germans did not recruit Polish para military units, as they did in the Ukraine and the Baltic states. By 1941 there were no Polish institutions to organise or support genocide. (Though citizens of pre war Poland who passed as German were readily recruited into the Wehrmacht and could indulge in any of the anti-semitic behaviour normal to the Nazi state.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#9

Post by henryk » 31 Jan 2018, 00:37

http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/3466 ... ote]Poland not responsible for Holocaust: Jerusalem Post

Polish Radio 30.01.2018 11:45

Poland is not responsible for the Holocaust and "was one of the countries that sent large numbers of men and women to resist the Nazis,” the Jerusalem Post has said in an article amid a spat between Israel and Poland over a new law on Holocaust responsibility.

The article, penned by Seth J. Frantzman and entitled “Setting History Straight – Poland Resisted Nazis,” notes that the Polish people “stood against the Nazi menace in Europe’s darkest hour” and “resisted Nazism valiantly,” unlike some other nations.

The proposed Polish law, approved by MPs in Warsaw last week in a bid to penalise those who claim Poland was responsible for Nazi crimes, “may be misguided and a bad way to go about dealing with history,” Frantzman writes in his article, “but Poland is right: It is not responsible for the Holocaust and the Polish people resisted Nazism valiantly, more so than many other countries that ran to collaborate.”

Poland and Israel are “involved in an angry controversy” over the contested new Polish regulations, Frantzman notes in the article posted on the jpost.com website.

He quotes Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as opposing the new Polish law and stating that “one cannot change history and the Holocaust cannot be denied.”

Israel's President Reuven Rivlin, former Finance Minister Yair Lapid and others have harshly condemned the law, Frantzman notes.

He also quotes Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki, who has said that “Auschwitz-Birkenau is not a Polish name” and that Arbeit Macht Frei (Work sets you free), the infamous German slogan above the entrance to the death camp, “is not a Polish phrase.”

Polish law 'not denying Holocaust'

According to Frantzman, Israeli and Polish politicians "seem to be talking past each other,” while “Poland is not denying the Holocaust through a law designed to punish those who describe the death camps as Polish.”

The author notes that Nazi Germany invaded Poland at the start of World War II and that the Polish resistance movement was “active from the early days of the Nazi occupation.”

Frantzman points out that the Polish resistance movement “opposed the German crimes against Jews in Poland” and declared that “any participation by Poles in anti-Jewish actions” was “traitorous” and “punishable by death.”

Poland was “subjected to the most vicious policies of the Nazi German regime,” Frantzman says in his article. He quotes data by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, according to which he says at least 1.9 million non-Jewish Poles were murdered between 1939 and 1945. In addition, up to 1.5 million Polish citizens were sent to Germany for slave labour.

"This is in addition to the three million Jewish Polish citizens murdered in the Holocaust,” Frantzman writes. “The destruction wrought on Poland was also extreme, with Warsaw razed to the ground in 1944 during the Polish Home Army uprising. The Warsaw Ghetto had already been destroyed during the 1943 uprising.”

Poland 'right to be angry'

Poland “is right to be angry when it is made to appear that Poles were somehow responsible” for the Holocaust, Frantzman says.

He adds: “Unlike most other countries occupied by Germany during the war, Poland did not provide a ready recruitment base for Nazi collaboration. For instance, the Waffen-SS recruited local units in Albania, Belgium, Estonia, Finland, France, Hungary, Latvia, Norway, Romania, Sweden and other countries. It didn’t find recruits among Poles.”

History “has an odd way of giving us the sense that Poles collaborated with Nazism, while whitewashing the real collaboration in Western Europe,” Frantzman says. He argues that “it is often forgotten that an estimated 6,000 Danes volunteered for Nazi collaborationist units, including SS units like the SS Division Wiking and SS Division Nordland” and that “there were 40,000 Nazi volunteers in Belgium … and the Germans found willing collaborators in many other countries as well, where they had no problem staffing local units. In France, they had an entire regime under the Vichy government willing to help expel Jews and do their bidding. Almost everywhere in Europe, except for among some groups such as Serbs and Poles, there was distinct collaboration.”

By contrast, “in most Western countries there was almost no resistance to Nazism,” according to Frantzman. “Compared to the Polish Home Army, which had hundreds of thousands of recruits to resist the Nazis, other resistance movements had trouble finding a handful of volunteers.”

While “individual Poles may have collaborated and after the Holocaust in 1946 there was the infamous and despicable Kielce pogrom … the record in Poland is one of resistance to Nazism,” Frantzman writes.

He reflects that the Holocaust “is too often used today as a political tool and rhetorical device.

“Not only is it invoked almost every day in Israeli political discussions, but its memory is abused throughout Europe and elsewhere.”

Poland’s “decision to want to legislate how the Holocaust can be discussed is misguided,” but “equally misguided is the anger directed at Poland and the distortion of history regarding Polish resistance.” Frantzman writes.

“If this whole controversy” over the proposed Polish law on Holocaust responsibility “should have one effect, it should not be for chest-beating Israeli politicians to attack Poland but rather to look into this history and perhaps learn from it,” the author concludes.
(gs)[/quote]

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#10

Post by henryk » 31 Jan 2018, 00:39

http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/34673 ... Historical truth', Israeli dialogue group to be set up this week: official

Polish Radio 30.01.2018 13:39

A working group for “historical truth” and dialogue with Israel is to be set up by the end of the week, Polish government spokeswoman Joanna Kopcińska has said amid tensions over plans in Poland to penalise the use of the phrase “Polish death camps”.

The entrance to the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp. Photo: Wikimedia Commons/C.Puisney/CC BY-SA 3.0

Deputies in the lower house of the Polish parliament recently green-lighted a new bill to combat the use of the phrase “Polish death camps” and other suggestions that Poland was complicit in Nazi German war crimes during World War II.

The bill was staunchly opposed by Israel.

Israeli Ambassador to Poland Anna Azari has said that Israel is aware that death camps were built on Polish territory by Nazi Germans, but that “the bill … does not mention a single word about who built the death camps”.

“It says there will be punishment for accusing Poles, the Polish state and nation. The way it is phrased makes it unclear for Israelis,” Azari said.

She said that the new law could mean that people could be punished for accusing a Pole of doing “something bad” during World War II might and that “Holocaust survivors would not be allowed to tell their stories”.

But Polish presidential aide Krzysztof Szczerski said a Polish group of experts needed to talk to Israeli representatives to clear up “certain misunderstandings” and explain the intention behind the law.

Szczerski said that Israel had interpreted the law to mean that individual Poles who were complicit in Nazi German war crimes would be considered representatives of the Polish nation, but in fact, the bill used legal language which stipulated that penalties would apply for “public lies against the Polish state and nation” as a whole.

Poland has long fought the use of the phrase “Polish death camps” in foreign media.

Polish Prosecutor Andrzej Pozorski said the expression “Polish death camps” suggests “that Poles share in the blame for crimes committed by Nazi Germany during World War II”.

Polish President Andrzej Duda said that there were no Polish concentration camps in World War II and that “camps were built on the territory of the Polish state ... by Germans, by Nazis”.

Duda added that “there were dishonourable people who would sell out their [Jewish] neighbours” to Nazi Germany in World War II, but stressed that those were individual cases of “despicable behaviour” which had nothing to do with Poland as a country or nation.

He also highlighted that some Poles sacrificed their own lives saving Jews.

A top official from the Polish prime minister’s office said the working group could be established on Thursday. (vb)

Source: PAP/IAR[/quote]

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#11

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 01 Feb 2018, 19:41

There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#12

Post by wm » 02 Feb 2018, 13:26

That "hundreds of thousands" was manufactured out of thin air by Polish historian Szymon Datner in the 1960s. It was the number of Jews that fled the ghettos and death trains.
Actually he was a good guy but, as he didn't know he resorted to guessing. He used various numbers, it seems the highest was 100,000.
His successors improved it to 10% of all Jews. It was max communism at that time in Poland, and the communist needed it because it was in good agreement with their ideology. That the Poles and the Jews valiantly fought the Hilterites led by the Communist Party was the mandatory narration at that time.

Later some ignorants got triggered by the number, and because many of the ten percenters were nowhere to be found (supposedly, the are no demographic statistics for the first post war years), they declared it means that the Poles murdered them all.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#13

Post by _Metrick » 02 Feb 2018, 17:02

Just out of curiosity what is whole Israeli Polish problem? I frankly don't understand Israeli reaction, as far as I understand this law, nobody in Poland takes anything from Holocaust memory. If Israel have for example problem with placing controversial figures like Bandera or Shukhevych as a national heroes in Ukraine it's understandable based on behavior of upa members towards Jews during WWII in today Ukraine.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#14

Post by wm » 02 Feb 2018, 20:04

Their leader loves to play hardball - with everyone, and he is under investigation - Case1000 and Case2000 or something. He needs votes badly.
It could have been done behind-the-scenes, quietly and the Poles would back down. All the hoopla did it.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#15

Post by michael mills » 03 Feb 2018, 09:22

In my opinion, any law which criminalises the expression of specific opinions about historical facts is dangerous, mainly because there is a tendency for the scope of such laws to be expanded to cover other opinions.

I suspect that the intention of the Polish nationalist politicians who drafted this law is not just to make it illegal to use the phrase "Polish death camps", but to make any claim that during the Second World War Poles killed Jews on their own initiative, without being forced to do so by the German occupiers, in other words, to make it impossible for a book such as Jan Tomas Gross's "Neighbours" to be published in Poland.

Such an outcome would be a perversion of historical truth, since it is an undeniable historical fact that there were cases where Poles killed Jews on their own initiative, for various reasons. Jedwabne was not an isolated case; there were other towns in the part of Poland formerly under Soviet occupation where the inhabitants took advantage of the flight of the Soviet authorities to take revenge on the local Jews whom they blamed for collaboration with the Soviet occupiers. There were also cases where Polish peasants banded together to hunt down Jewish escapees hiding in the forests, because those Jews were raiding their villages to steal food.

In the small towns and villages the local administrations up to the level of town mayors was staffed by Poles working under German supervision, and many of those administrations did participate in the rounding up of the local Jews for the purpose of deporting them.

There were elements of the Polish Resistance that did kill Jewish escapees, in particular the right-wing groups affiliated with the NSZ. And there were also units of the AK in what is now western Belarus that accepted aid from the Wehrmacht in fighting against Soviet partisans.

Bear in mind that in his 1940 report on the situation of Jews in the German and Soviet zones of occupation in Poland, Kozielewski-Karski stated that there was a danger that the anti-Jewish policies of the German occupiers could form the basis on which a de facto collaboration of the Polish population with the occupiers might be formed. That part of his report was suppressed by the Polish Government-in-Exile in Angers.

Later, on 30 September 1941, the then commander of the AK, Grot-Rowecki, sent a message to London asking the Government-in-Exile not to make statements of support for Jews, since that was unpopular with the Polish population. He went so far as to say that "the whole country is anti-Semitic now".

On the other hand, the criticism by some Israeli politicians of the Polish law does represent an hysterical over-reaction in many ways.

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