Which of German death camps was Polish ???

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#46

Post by David Thompson » 08 Feb 2018, 06:45

The claim of Polish anti-semitism, without distinct disclaimers, is an overgeneralization. Poland, like every nation, has mentally ill people, opportunists, turncoats, criminal hirelings and thieves, but a claim that these asocial elements characterize the entire society is an insult. Posters should be very careful of what they post. Our forum rules provide:
National and religious insults are forbidden by this first rule of the forum, and the third rule of the forum prohibits racist remarks and slang expressions for ethnic, national, religious or racial groups. Posts containing insulting generalizations about nationalities, ethnic groups, societies or religious groups and practices are not permitted here. This includes remarks about collective responsibility.

Nonconforming posts are subject to deletion without warning. Serious breaches of these rules are punishable by banning the poster.
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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#47

Post by _Metrick » 08 Feb 2018, 11:43

history1 wrote:
_Metrick wrote:Thanks guys for explanation [...] although I'm pretty skeptical about figures like Jan Tomasz Gross [...]
Skeptical? You doubt that he´s telling the truth? Then check out this Polish source:
http://www.holocaustresearch.pl/index.php?show=5
But note that their work is neither appreciated within the Polish folk.
BTW, where are you from?
Hi History1,
my whole point regarding Polish-Israeli relations was when you compare behavior of different nations in Europe during WWII there were far worse examples than Poland. I frankly don't understand what is so uniquely evil on Polish side. Polish government in London never initiated or approved any anti Jewish behavior in contrast to what did Vichy France, Italy or Slovakia. If I'm not mistaken only admiral Horty in Hungary didn't collaborate with Germans on Holocaust. Slovakia for example paid Germany 500RM per deported person. Even neutral Switzerland allowed Jewish transports to get through from Italy to Third Reich not to mention problems which survivors had in Swiss banks after war. Of course there were collaborators in every nation under Nazi Germany. But when you compare what did Ukrainians, Latvians or Lithuanians and Poles there is not much comparison. Balts and Ukrainians worked directly with Einsatzgruppen. My point is if you take collaborators as a norm you don't get correct picture of that time and of course every single killed person is tragedy. Unfortunately during war and time shortly after war some people did horrible things as acts of revenge, greed or fear and every one should be condemned and punished.

Regarding Mr. Gross I admit as non Pole I'm not super educated about him but few years ago I watched lecture of Prof. Chodakiewicz about Jedwabne and he made some good points and pointed out some problems with explanation given by T. Gross.
Maybe Mr. Gross is right and Mr. Chodakiewicz is wrong but to me it seems there is some agenda.

And last one, I'm not Polish, I'm Czech.

BTW: as a Austrian, do you know if there is any database of fallen A-H soldiers from WW 1? I mean something like Volksbund in Germany.

Regards
Metrick


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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#48

Post by wm » 08 Feb 2018, 11:53

It should be mentioned, although I may be mistaken here, Slovakia paid Germany for deported persons not gassed.
As France and the Western countries they were unaware of the Holocaust.
For them it was war time security operations, not that different from those conducted during the Great War by the Russians, and during the WW2 by the Soviets.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#49

Post by wm » 08 Feb 2018, 12:13

I think people don't realize the extent of the collapse of morality and social norms during the occupation, how quickly pure evil: murders, robbery, extortions, bribery, preying on the defenseless became the new normal.
It was the key difference between Poland and other countries, because the occupation of Poland was like no other. At that point political convictions, philo-semitism or anti-semitism made little difference.

Two examples from the Ghetto:
Notes from the Warsaw Ghetto by Emanuel Ringelblum
the lice are omnipresent. They literally fly through the air, and it is almost impossible to avoid them. The so-called "disinfection columns sent out by the Jewish Council health office actually spread lice. The same is true of the health-department doctors, who are fearfully corrupt. The "disinfection columns" extort money from the rich, whom they exempt from disinfection. The doctors cooperate. The disinfection steam bath organizations sell bath certificates, so that those who need to be disinfected buy the certificates and do not bathe. The sulphur used in the disinfection is so weak that the lice survive, so that the whole anti-epidemic operation is, in fact, a swindle, perpetrated chiefly by the doctors and the sanitation columns.
The Jewish Council's work department is not only corrupt, it is completely indolent as well. Every little thing (a special registration, for instance) seems to require superhuman effort on the part of everyone concerned. To get a medical examination you have to spend some two or three days waiting from five in the morning - of course, you can go into the examination room by a side entrance for 5-10 zlotys. Nothing was anticipated. Complete anarchy and dry rot.
Because of all this, the beads of the Council's work department lost their beads, and, unable to control the situation, took to kidnaping people. The first day - the 19th of April - was horrible.
It earned the Jewish police the honorary title of "gangsters," the name that was flung at them hundreds of times during meetings that the House Committees held to discuss the subject.
Instead of searching for those who were hiding out the nights of the 19th and 20th of April, the Jewish and Polish police took over complete houses and demanded to be paid off.
One policeman is said to have made 5,000 zlotys that first night. They forced their way into the apartments of people over forty, of people who were sick, and insisted on being paid off. Of course, the only people taken for work were those who couldn't buy their way out, or those who bad been exempted previously as being sick, or as the only breadwinner in the family.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#50

Post by _Metrick » 08 Feb 2018, 12:28

wm wrote:It should be mentioned, although I may be mistaken here, Slovakia paid Germany for deported persons not gassed.
As France and the Western countries they were unaware of the Holocaust.
For them it was war time security operations, not that different from those conducted during the Great War by the Russians, and during the WW2 by the Soviets.
I think you are right in case of Slovakia. It's hard to tell what people in government knew, public didn't know much for sure, killing innocent people like in Holocaust was unthinkable.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#51

Post by history1 » 08 Feb 2018, 13:14

wm wrote:
history1 wrote:You really call this a proof? You even didn´t mention a source for your "proof"!
It´s only Polish propaganda I saw the last week about 30 times in social networks to excuse/justify the Polish anti-semitism or those of the Polish Blue Police.
It's a well known excerpt, and I'm sure Yuli, as a knowledgeable person doesn't need explanations. It was sufficient to google the first line anyway, it's twenty first century you know.
[...]
You don´t need to tell me. Read #2 and #6,2 of the forum rules.
Seems that David was to busy when he posted his comment.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#52

Post by wm » 08 Feb 2018, 13:27

In Hungary, since 1942 Horthy and his government have been engaged in continuous secret negotiations with the British and the Americans, trying to disengage from the Axis. It's hardly believable in those circumstances Horthy could have attempted genocide.

This was happening on the "Aryan" side too:
Demoralization is spreading rapidly through the Ghetto. While the poor become ever poorer and dress in rags, the girls are dressing up as though the war were non-existent. There have been many cases of girls stealing from their parents, taking things from home to sell or barter for ornaments, or a hair wave - in a word, for luxury items.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#53

Post by history1 » 08 Feb 2018, 13:43

wm wrote:
history1 wrote:The world can only wonder about the fact that ethnic Germans from Poland serving in the rows of the SS were post WWII persecuted and convicted as POLES by POLISH courts :roll:
Please, less emotions more logic.
I don't know anything about them, but probably because they were Polish citizens, i.e. German Poles.
Poles from the Geman minority are POLES, not people from the moon.
wm wrote:
history1 wrote:When Poles claim that not a single Pole did serve as SS-man then why is the IPN considering ethic Germans from Poland as POLES on their website. And in the verdicts they got even convicted as traitors to the nation!
They didn't identify themselves as Poles, they were only Polish citizens.
Even when they didn´t consider themself as Poles they were Polish citizens and got convicted as Poles and so the claim "no Pole was involved into the Holocaust" is as wrong as it can be.
Example from nowadays: We have Austrians from the Croatian, Hungarian and Roma minorities in my state, though they are all Austrians with it´s rights and duties.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#54

Post by Yuli » 08 Feb 2018, 13:59

wm wrote:
It should be mentioned, although I may be mistaken here, Slovakia paid Germany for deported persons not gassed.
As France and the Western countries they were unaware of the Holocaust.
For them it was war time security operations, not that different from those conducted during the Great War by the Russians, and during the WW2 by the Soviets.
I fail to understand what you wrote regarding France's responsibility in the Holocaust; "they were unaware of the Holocaust" and "for them it was war time security operations". Please elaborate.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#55

Post by _Metrick » 08 Feb 2018, 14:21

history1 wrote:
wm wrote:
history1 wrote:The world can only wonder about the fact that ethnic Germans from Poland serving in the rows of the SS were post WWII persecuted and convicted as POLES by POLISH courts :roll:
Please, less emotions more logic.
I don't know anything about them, but probably because they were Polish citizens, i.e. German Poles.
Poles from the Geman minority are POLES, not people from the moon.
wm wrote:
history1 wrote:When Poles claim that not a single Pole did serve as SS-man then why is the IPN considering ethic Germans from Poland as POLES on their website. And in the verdicts they got even convicted as traitors to the nation!
They didn't identify themselves as Poles, they were only Polish citizens.
Even when they didn´t consider themself as Poles they were Polish citizens and got convicted as Poles and so the claim "no Pole was involved into the Holocaust" is as wrong as it can be.
Example from nowadays: We have Austrians from the Croatian, Hungarian and Roma minorities in my state, though they are all Austrians with it´s rights and duties.

In my opinion both points of view could be valid but it's pretty impossible use our point of view (I mean view of 21st century).
May I ask if Kurt Knispel was German, Czech, Czechoslovak or something else? Born in Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia in 1921.
I would guess he considered himself more likely as a German than Czechoslovak. I mean this kind of judgments are very complicated. And I write it as someone whose relatives died as German soldiers, in some regions it's far more complicated than people thinks today.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#56

Post by history1 » 08 Feb 2018, 14:40

Can some admin/moderator help, please? I wrote a rather long post to answer Metricks questions and since I clicked on "send" it´s gone and can´t be found again. Metrick did post his last comment at the same time, that´s likely the reason for my problem. Thanks in advance.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#57

Post by wm » 08 Feb 2018, 15:55

Don't bother them, it's gone. Write long posts in an external editor, save often, copy/paste at the end.
Nobody reads walls of text anyway.
history1 wrote:Even when they didn´t consider themself as Poles they were Polish citizens and got convicted as Poles and so the claim "no Pole was involved into the Holocaust" is as wrong as it can be.
It's a strawman, nobody says so.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#58

Post by wm » 08 Feb 2018, 15:57

Yuli wrote:I fail to understand what you wrote regarding France's responsibility in the Holocaust; "they were unaware of the Holocaust" and "for them it was war time security operations". Please elaborate.
It's not about their responsibility, but about their state of mind and what they knew and when.

The Nazis maintained the illusion of their good intentions to the end.
They always claimed it was for the good of everyone. That dangerous and unreliable people had to be removed from the front rear areas (Hungary, France), or industrial centers. Or for some other reason, like an infectious disease threat. Exactly as the Soviets were doing - a population transfer for the greater good.
Even the most bloodthirsty anti-semites probably though along the line: we would be free from the Jews, they would get a chance to start a new life somewhere else in Eastern Europe.

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#59

Post by henryk » 21 Feb 2018, 21:36

http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/3504 ... ote]Report on Anti-Semitism in the EU: How Poland fared
Polish Radio 21.02.2018 13:32

Reported cases of anti-Semitism in Poland fell by over 50 percent in 2016 compared to the previous year, Polish public broadcaster TVP Info has reported.

TVP Info cited statistics from the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights which the broadcaster said showed that 101 cases of anti-Semitism were noted in Poland in 2016, down from 167 such incidents in 2015.

The largest number of anti-Semitic incidents in the European Union in 2016 was registered in Germany (1468) and Britain (1308), followed by Austria (477), the Netherlands (428), France (355) and Sweden (277), TVP Info said on its website.

The European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights is a Vienna-based body. It aims to help ensure that the fundamental rights of people living in the EU are protected.(pk)
[/quote]

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Re: Which of German death camps was Polish ???

#60

Post by Skyderick » 21 Feb 2018, 23:22

Peter K wrote: Turns out that guy is a huge liar: https://i.imgur.com/dcYWTNW.jpg
Image
Not quite. He was referring to his great-grandmother Hermina who perished in Auschwitz.
His father's testimony at Yad Vashem from 1955:
Image

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