US PBS Special on Berga-US Jewish POWs

[Roberto]

I was not familiar with the term "sphincter" employed in yet another of Smith’s sermons, so I looked it up and found the following:

sphincter

Definition: (SFINK-tur) A muscle which surrounds, and by its contraction tends to close, a natural opening; such as the sphincter at the base of the bladder. Damage to it (e.g, a contracture) can cause incontinence or loss of bladder control. See pelvic floor muscles, artificial urinary sphincter.

http://www.phoenix5.org/glossary/sphincter.html

Such terminology makes Smith’s ramblings an even worthier addition to my list of the fellow’s picturesque utterances reflecting the obsessions that haunt his tormented mind.

[demonio]

It means the muscle that is the Anus that expels solid waste from the body. Where you go to the toilet from.

[David Thompson]

(1) Analogies (pun intended) of this sort are inappropriate here.

(2) Stay on topic.

[Tarpon27]

Scott wrote:

I don't think a soldier has to have his dogtags but he must have his uniform or he can be considered a spy under the Geneva Convention. An armed soldier with I.D. but no uniform could certainly be a "spy."

American soldiers were issued dog tags. On such dog tags, for Jewish American soldiers was the letter "H", for "Hebrew". An American POW to the Germans was obviously recognized per his uniform and identified by his carrying dog tags. Those American POWs captured at the time of the Battle of the Bulge in 1944, and on this PBS program came from the 28th, 70th, 105th and 106th US Infantry Divisions.

It was not common for soldiers to rid themselves of their dog tags; at least non-jews. OTOH, Jewish soldiers captured by German forces who had the distinguishing "H" mark on their tags, were advised, apparently, to rid themselves of their tags so that they could not be identified as Jews. Of course, their names may give them away, as certainly Jewish sounding names would indicate Jewish origins.

For example, William Shapiro, medic, from the 28th Infantry Division, on the PBS documentary, has also an account on the 'net which I will post below.

Scott Smith wrote:

The program never demonstrated beyond a mere claim (if that) that they were not bombshelters for civilian use--unless I missed something, as I fell asleep in the middle. Therefore we can only assume. Oh those wicked Nazis, building tunnels for nothing but just to punish those ugly Jews and non-Jews that "look" like Jews... (Cue tears.)

A program you never watched to the finish, but that would hardly matter anyhow.

First it was civilian bomb shelters, and now it is a means of punishment? C'mon Scott, try again. Sounds like an Auschwitz argument.

[...]

For Fellman and some other men the truth was the hell at a site inmates believe was a subcamp of the infamous Buchenwald concentration camp

Like other U.S. soldiers captured in the Battle of the Bulge in December 1944, Fellman was first sent to Stalag 9B, a prisoner-of-war camp, But then the Germans separated Fellman and the other Jewish soldiers- as well as other GIs - and shipped them in boxcars to a small town on the Elster River. They were housed in barracks, sleeping two or three to a lice infested bunk. They also worked under forced labor conditions - like Jews and other "undesirables" in Nazi Germany but unlike most American POWs.

At Berga, some were put to work as electricians, carpenters, locksmiths. The worst duty came in the mines, where the Germans were excavating tunnels for a munitions plant. The POWs dug through slate for hours on end, breathing fumes and mine dust. Their diet consisted of hardened bread heavy on sawdust, an occasional slice of meat and a nearly inedible soup.

[...]

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/berga1.html

[...]

Shortly thereafter, we had orders to stand outside of our barracks. About Three hundred-fifty of us were assigned to move out to God knows where. The Krauts spat, kicked and swung rifle butts at us because we wouldn’t move fast enough. We were ordered to get into boxcars and traveled several days and nights. On February 8, 1945, we arrived at the new camp. It was called Berga an der Elster.

Berga was considered a mining center with caves and excavated tunnels for what appeared to be gun inplacements. We soon realized that it was nothing but a SLAVE labor camp. The worst was yet to come. Prisoners were being murdered and tortured by the Nazis. Many of our men died and I tried keeping track of who they were and how they died in my diary. During this time of confinement, we only ate 100 grams of bread per week made of saw dust with redwood bark. Just enough to barely stay alive. At 3:00 AM they had me and another buddy go for the "tea run". The tea was nothing more but dry weeds and shrubs boiled in water. I was told that the soup we ate was made from cats and rats.

[...]

A Former POW at Berga
By Anthony C. Acevedo

Grade Rate or Rank: Corporal
MOS: Surgical Technician
Decorations, medals, badges, commendations and campaign ribbons awarded: Bronze Star with 3 service stars and German clasp, Purple Heart, Victory Ribbon, Combat Medical Badge, Good Conduct Medal, American Theater, European, African, Middle Eastern Theater of Operations Ribbon with 3 bronze stars, Prisoner of War Ribbon, Begium Merit of Honor Award
Campaigns: Ardennes Campaign, Rhineland Campaign, Central Europe Campaign


The following narrative is based on a diary I wrote while being held captive by German forces during the Battle of the Bulge.

I was a Medic for the 275th Infantry Regiment of the 70th Infantry Division and assigned to Company B. My story begins with the events leading to interment in a Nazi German prison camp, January 6 1945.

[My note: Acevedo was another in the PBS film]

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/berga2.html

[...]

We were divided into two work shifts, one for 6 a.m. to 2 p.m. and one from 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. I was in the 6 a.m. shift. We were marched down the hill to the tunnel site and were assigned to the various tunnels to work with German civilians.

The first group to work was from the barracks nearest to the gate. This barracks included all of those of Jewish faith. They worked the 2:00 p.m. shift. When they came in at 10:30 p.m. they said it was terrible and that we should refuse to go out for our 6:00 a.m. shift. We felt that we were not is a position that we could refuse and did go our for our first shift. I must admit that my first march to the tunnel site was with a great deal of concern. We had heard that the civilians had been bobmed out of Aachen and had lost homes and families. My buddy Charles Carter and I together with several others were assigned to tunnel number 12. At first we had to fallout at 5:30 for our shift. As it became harder to get men out for work as the days went by, we had to fall out earlier and earlier.

At the end of our first shift we had to wait until almost 2:45 for the guards who would take us back up the hill after bringing down the 2:00 p.m. shift. We learned that this group had gone on strike. Some refused to leave the barracks and some hid under the barracks. Guards with fixed bayonets and police dogs got everyone out to come down to work although late.

I guess that those of us in tunnel 12 were more fortunate than those in other tunnels. Perhaps because I had grown up in Cripple Creek,(7) Colorado which was in a hard rock gold mining area, I knew what the work was like although I had never worked underground. I believe that the civilians with whom we worked were more humane that those in some of the tunnels. Until they had a cut in their rations some would give us a part of their sandwich. We had no food or water during our eight hour shift.

The tunnels were being driven into a bluff along the Elster River. As I remember it there were 17 tunnels numbered 1 to 18 with no number 13. They were 8 to 10 feet wide and about the same height. When we started working they were in about 150 feet. The rock was very hard and had to be drilled and blasted. Ties and rails were laid for the tram cars to run on to carry the broken rock out and dump it. The track ran out of the tunnel about one hundred feet toward the river to a turn table. We had to push the cars to the turn table and then turn them 900 to the left to match up with track that ran parallel to the river and on to where they were dumped.

We were fortunate in our tunnel that there was a compressed air operated loader (mucking machine) and we had to load the rock that the machine couldn't reach. There was an air duct that brought outside air into the tunnel. When our tunnel was in about 200 feet it began to turn to the left. They began to make the ceiling higher. Shortly after this we were pulled out of the tunnels to work outside. With half of the tunnels turning to the left and half to the right they would meet and make one large room.

The working conditions were bad for everyone in the tunnels. The drills were not the modern ones with a stream of water going down the center of the drill steel. The drills used made dust so thick that you could not see more that three feet when they were operated. Over time under these conditions lung could accumulate rock dust that could not be coughed up and could cause death.

[...]

An American Slave in Nazi Germany
by John W. Reifenrath
B Company 423 Infantry 106th Infantry Division


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John was captured during the Battle of the Bulge and was imprisoned in the Stalag 9B POW camp. He was later sent to Berga am Elster. John wrote his story March 26, 1997. Footnotes were added to further explain or clarify his story. The editing was done by Pete House, the historian of the Stalag 9A, 9B, 13B and Berga ex-POW association.

[...]

This was an SS/Military work complex called Schwalbe V, under the immediate direction of an SS Lt. Hacke, which utilized slave labor political prisoners controlled by Himmler’s SS troopers to build underground armament factories. There were many similar complexes throughout Germany for the same purposes. It was in keeping with Himmler’s plan to utilize political prisoners from all of conquered Europe as slaves in building a greater Germany. The work site was a very long and tall hillside adjacent to the Elster river. The site ran along the river bed for a considerable distance and was sufficiently large to accommodate the construction of 17 different tunnels which lead into a planned large armament factory area. The factory area had not been excavated as yet, but by the size and number of tunnels the over all planning must have been for a complex of significant size.

The slave work consisted of excavating rocks and dirt by hand and shovel after it was loosened by explosives laid by the German engineers. The men hand loaded rocks onto or shoveled slate fragments and dirt onto flatbed cars similar to coal cars. They hand pushed the cars on its track to an area where the rocks could be dumped into the Elster river. They worked with primitive drills, old mining machines and often the men were utilized in place of machine power or horse power to move heavy objects. Accidents and beatings with rubber hoses were common. Slate dust was choking and ever present. Our Volksturm guards marched the shifts of POWs to their tunnels, where they remained until the shift ended. The return to the barracks was often marred by the indifference and uncaring long waiting periods until our guards arrived to march them back to the barracks and their bunks. Even after this torture there was a further delay of the much deserved rest because they had to stand in line for the evening count of the prisoners. These repetitive, disruptive, inane counts made the suffering more harsh. Finally, the meager rations of a bowl of rotted potato or turnip top green soup and a slice of hard, grainy black bread was distributed.

[...]

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/Shapiro.html

The intro to this document:

A Medic Recalls the Horrors of Berga
by William J. Shapiro



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the recollection of a former POW who was among the Jews segregated at Stalag 9B and sent to the Berga concentration camp. Dr. Shapiro wrote this memoir in 1998, more than 50 years after being liberated. Up until a few years before, he had not written or spoken about his experience. “After more than 50 years of silence and now more than two years since I have first began this exploration, I believe I have a better understanding and somewhat clearer picture of the where, what and when of that experience and, therefore, I feel comfortable in telling my story,” he wrote. Dr. Shapiro has graciously granted permission to excerpt his memoir here.


http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/Shapiro.html

Scott wrote:

Obviously the purpose of the program was to make our little noggins generalize. They found a few old farts (Jews and non-Jews) who see the universe and the entire history of the war through the Holocaust sphincter, and then we have a fluff piece produced for sweeps month for our education and delictation about the Nazis mistreating American Jews who served our country (not those greasy foreign types, you know). A great Memorial Day tribute! Raise high the Stars and Stripes and let's go git Saddam.

The Soldiers of Berga
By Mitchell G. Bard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1945, more than 4,000 American GIs were imprisoned at Stalag IX-B at Bad Orb, approximately 30 miles northwest of Frankfurt-on-Main. One day the commandant had prisoners assembled in a field. All Jews were ordered to take one step forward. Word ran through the ranks not to move. The non-Jews told their Jewish comrades they would stand with them. The commandant said the Jews would have until six the next morning to identify themselves. The prisoners were told, moreover, that any Jews in the barracks after 24 hours would be shot, as would anyone trying to hide or protect them.

American Jewish soldiers had to decide what to do. All had gone into battle with dog tags bearing an "H" for Hebrew. Some had disposed of their IDs when they were captured, others decided to do so after the commandant's threat.

Approximately 130 Jews ultimately came forward. They were segregated and placed in a special barracks. Some 50 noncommissioned officers from the group were taken out of the camp, along with the non-Jewish NCOs.

The Germans had a quota of 350 for a special detail. All the remaining Jews were taken, along with prisoners considered troublemakers, those they thought were Jewish and others chosen at random. This group left Bad Orb on February 8. They were placed in trains under conditions similar to those faced by European Jews deported to concentration camps. Five days later, the POWs arrived in Berga, a quaint German town of 7,000 people on the Elster River, whose concentration camps appear on few World War II maps.

Conditions in Stalag IX-B were the worst of any POW camp, but they were recalled fondly by the Americans transferred to Berga, who discovered the main purpose for their imprisonment was to serve as slave laborers. Each day, the men trudged approximately two miles through the snow to a mountainside in which 17 mine shafts were dug 100 feet apart. There, under the direction of brutal civilian overseers, the Americans were required to help the Nazis build an underground armament factory.

The men worked in shafts as deep as 150 feet that were so dusty it was impossible to see more than a few feet in front of you. The Germans would blast the slate loose with dynamite and then, before the dust settled, the prisoners would go down to break up the rock so that it could be shoveled into mining cars.

The men did what they could to sustain each other. "You kept each other warm at night by huddling together," said Daniel Steckler. "We maintained each other's welfare by sharing body heat, by sharing the paper-thin blankets that were given to us, by sharing the soup, by sharing the bread, by sharing everything."

"Surviving was all you thought about," Winfield Rosenberg agreed. "You were so worn down you didn't even think of all the death that was around you." He said his faith sustained him. "I knew I'd go to heaven if I died, because I was already in hell."

On April 4, 1945, the commandant received an order to evacuate Berga. This was but the end of a chapter of the Americans' ordeal. The human skeletons who had survived found no cause to rejoice in this flight from hell. They were leaving friends behind and returning to the unknown.

Fewer than 300 men survived the 50 days they had spent in Berga. Over the next two-and-a-half weeks, before the survivors were liberated, at least 36 more GIs died on a march to avoid the approaching Allied armies. The fatality rate in Berga, including the march, was the highest of any camp where American POWs were held—nearly 20 percent—and the 70-73 men who were killed represented approximately six percent of all Americans who perished as POWs during World War II.

This was not the only case where American Jewish soldiers were segregated or otherwise mistreated, but it was the most dramatic. The U.S. Government never publicly acknowledged they were mistreated. In fact, one survivor was told he should go to a psychiatrist. Officials at the VA told him he had made up the whole story.

Two of the Nazis responsible for the murder and mistreatment of American soldiers were tried. They were found guilty and sentenced to hang, despite the fact that none of the survivors testified at the trial . Later, the case was reviewed and the verdicts upheld. Nevertheless, five years after being tried, the Chief of the War Crimes Branch unilaterally decided the evidence was insufficient to sustain the charges and commuted the sentences to time served — about six years.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: © Mitchell G. Bard. Forgotten Victims: The Abandonment of Americans in Hitler's Camps.. CO: Westview Press, 1994.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/berga.html

Scott wrote:

Oh, wait, that was the last Intervention...

Who does Bush bomb now?

You know, Scott, someday you will have to come to grips with the fact that The Third Reich Forum is not your private sounding board to dispense with your economic or political ideological whinings. No one really cares, just as they do not care about my political beliefs. It is immaterial, just as every other diversion you post.

Scott wrote:

Anyway, "Triple Chai," make out your check to Edgar Bronfman for $54 and he will match it (up to $25,000) to ensure that we Never, Never Forget™ and that Israel is kept safe from those nasty Gentiles.

Isn't that about the size of it?

Not conspiracy, just confluence-of-interest in a modern spoils-system Democracy.

ROFL! And the answer is, a Scott Smith commentary, a sort of weird Pax-Scott endless lecture on the Smith view of the World.

I don't care about your views on Bush, or Jews, or "old farts". What I would prefer is to you address your own points that I have questioned.

1) What were the Elster excavations made for? In a town of 7,000, why carve 17 tunnels out of rock as the program stated?

2) Why are both Jews and non-Jews who were among the 350 sent there lying, according to you? If this is gross historical inaccuracy, fine...but so far, outside of your typical diversionary tactics, you have little to show for your argument.

3) In looking through bombing missions, I have yet to find a single mission where Allied bombers were selected to bomb the Elster area...so why bomb shelters instead of what the program says...an underground armaments facility. But I have not yet reviewed all the source material (see below).

SEE:

http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/wwii/usaf/html/

4) If it was being built as an armaments facility, than the use of American POWs was clearly against the Geneva Convention according to what YOU have posted.

Save your off-topic political commentary for your own threads. I don't care about your political beliefs nor your commentary.

Mark

--Pict of US POWs from Berga:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holoca ... iated.html

--Pict of Berga tunnels:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/Tunnels.html

--Pict of exhuming dead US POWs for war crimes trials of Ludwig Merz and Erwin Metz:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/exhume.html

[Tarpon27]

Scott Smith wrote:

They found a few old farts (Jews and non-Jews) who see the universe and the entire history of the war through the Holocaust sphincter, and then we have a fluff piece produced for sweeps month for our education and delictation about the Nazis mistreating American Jews who served our country (not those greasy foreign types, you know).

For those who wish to read further from a "few old farts (Jews and non-Jews) who see the universe and the entire history of the war through the Holocaust sphincter" from 38 of 'em, you can find them here:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/berga/sitemap.html

It has transcripts of the actual interviews with those on the film.

"It is Jews conflabulating, it is old farts being senile, it is sweeps..."

Whatever...

Mark

[Benoit Douville]

Scott Smith,

This program was very well researched and I don't think you can call it nonsense the U.S. soldiers who look like Jews who were deported to the concentration camp. I think it is true.

Regards

[Penn44]

Scott Smith,

This program was very well researched and I don't think you can call it nonsense the U.S. soldiers who look like Jews who were deported to the concentration camp. I think it is true.
Regards

The American POWs of Arbeitskommando 625 fell within three categories:
- the 80 Jewish-Americans
- about 130 or so "undesirables" also known as "trouble-makers"
-and the remainder were "fillers," chosen at random among the POW population.

There is NO evidence that any of the POWs were chosen because he looked Jewish. The producer of the film was told this information, yet, he evidently disregarded it. Selections based on physical appearance were made at other Stalags, but again, there is no evidence that it was done so at Stalag 9-B.

When the POW arrived at Stalag 9-B, the were asked such questions as name, rank, serial number, place of birth, religion, and father's name and mother's maiden name. This was for the German POW registration form. Many of the Jewish POWs simply told the Germans their real religion. Of course, some concealed their religion.

The Germans asked the Jewish POWs to report to the Sonderbarracke. Some POWs report that this German demand was accompanied by a physical threat. Some of the Jewish POWs who initally tried to conceal their religion stepped forward because they either feared being turned in by other American POWs. The Germans NEVER checkeddogtags at Stalag 9B.

Several POWs and at least one book claims that the Germans selected the "undesirables" also referred by some as the "trouble-makers." There is evidence, however, that it was the American POWs themselves who selected the undesirables (the barracks thieves, the guys who started fights, etc.).

At least two of the POWs volunteered for the work detail because they mistakenly thought they would get more food on a workdetail.

Also, the American POWs of Arbeitskommando 625 (the Berga POWs) never went to a concentration camp. At Berga, they were under the administrative control of Stalag 9C at Bad Sulza. At Berga, they worked for the SS Bauleitung under SS-Obersturmfuehrer Willy Hack. Nebenslager Berga, that housed the Buchenwald and Dora concentration camp inmates working there, was under the control of SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Rohr, from the Totenskopf guard unit out of KZ Buchewald. Again, the producer of the film knew this, but chose to disregard it. The Berga POWs received Red Cross packages whereas the KZ inmates did not. When they were sick, the Berga POWs received German military medical care and hospitalization and not KZ medical care (the medical treatment they received was inadequate, but about 70 POWs were evacuated to German military hospitals). When they died, their remains, effects and circumstances of death were reported through channels in accordance with German military regulations that complied with the Geneva Convention. The Berga POWs were guarded by Landesschutzen guards, not Totenkopf guards, and there is not a single example of an SS guard striking an American POW at Berga. The Germans who did most of the physical abuse of the American POWs at Berga were German civilian laborers and foremen. There is no clear evidence that the any of the American POWs at Berga were summarily executed like the several KZ inmates who suffered that fate at Berga. There are some significant differences between the experiences of the American POWs and the KZ inmates at Berga, a fact that the producer did not want to highlite.

When the producer claims or insinuates the Berga POWs were part of the Holocaust process he is wrong. They were forced laborers who suffered enormously.

In the mid-1990s, about 75 of the 104 still living Berga POWs applied for compensation from the German government for compensation under the Holocaust . The US Justice Department official who prepared the case for the Americans knew their case was extremely flimsy. Had the German representatives asked the appropriate questions, they would have discovered that the Berga POWs did not qualify for compensation (despite their heavy death rate and physical/mental suffering). There were many people who worked in the labor camps who were not KZ inmates, example, the British Arbeitskommando at Auschwitz.

The Germans segregated Jewish-American POWs at other camps,and there were at least four other Jewish-American Arbeitskommandos in Germany at this time. Why only the Berga POWs were sent to an SS project? No one knows the answer.

Beware of so-called "documentaries." Guggenheim was more concern with "story telling" and "art" than he was in telling factual history.

The fact that so many of the Berga POWs died in such a short time frame and that they died in the manner they did does not require Hollywood showmanship or high art that neglects all the facts to tell their story. Guggenheim should have reported all the facts. But this film was his swan song, and I think he wanted to leave this world with his fifth Oscar.

[Scott Smith]

Thank you, Penn44 for a very informative and interesting post.

[Tarpon27]

For Penn...

Do you have any source material, or cites that I can also read for the information you have provided on Berga POWs?

Penn wrote:

The American POWs of Arbeitskommando 625 fell within three categories:
- the 80 Jewish-Americans
- about 130 or so "undesirables" also known as "trouble-makers"
-and the remainder were "fillers," chosen at random among the POW population.

There is NO evidence that any of the POWs were chosen because he looked Jewish. The producer of the film was told this information, yet, he evidently disregarded it. Selections based on physical appearance were made at other Stalags, but again, there is no evidence that it was done so at Stalag 9-B.

"- the 80 Jewish-Americans "

---identified by how?

"- about 130 or so "undesirables" also known as "trouble-makers"

---while there are reports of these "troublemakers", one has to wonder how they were categorized as such in a Stalag. Even though, from what I have read, there were "troublemakers", exactly what makes a "troublemaker" from the Stalag view as to what makes a "troublemaker" from the prisoner point of view?

"-and the remainder were "fillers," chosen at random among the POW population. "

---I guess, unlucky for them, huh? Luck of the draw, they were neither of the original 80 Jews, nor the 'troublemakers", but the "fillers".

Maybe we can call them the "unfortunates". Just picked to go to Berga.

There is NO evidence that any of the POWs were chosen because he looked Jewish. The producer of the film was told this information, yet, he evidently disregarded it. Selections based on physical appearance were made at other Stalags, but again, there is no evidence that it was done so at Stalag 9-B.

Then you can explain how the 80 were picked, and you may also tell us how the "producer" of this film was "told this information, yet he apparently disregarded it".

While I have no doubt about the veracity of your information, I would surely like to see your sourcing. If you wouldn't mind.

When the POW arrived at Stalag 9-B, the were asked such questions as name, rank, serial number, place of birth, religion, and father's name and mother's maiden name. This was for the German POW registration form. Many of the Jewish POWs simply told the Germans their real religion. Of course, some concealed their religion.

Well, were these the original 80?

The Germans asked the Jewish POWs to report to the Sonderbarracke. Some POWs report that this German demand was accompanied by a physical threat. Some of the Jewish POWs who initally tried to conceal their religion stepped forward because they either feared being turned in by other American POWs. The Germans NEVER checkeddogtags at Stalag 9B.

So the Germans never checked dog tags, and you know this by how?

While also...

Some of the Jewish POWs who initally tried to conceal their religion stepped forward because they either feared being turned in by other American POWs.

Okay, fine.

You have any source for ANY of this?

Several POWs and at least one book claims that the Germans selected the "undesirables" also referred by some as the "trouble-makers." There is evidence, however, that it was the American POWs themselves who selected the undesirables (the barracks thieves, the guys who started fights, etc.).

Then quote it and the book.

At least two of the POWs volunteered for the work detail because they mistakenly thought they would get more food on a workdetail.

Again, I read what you write while I see nothing to back your claims.

Also, the American POWs of Arbeitskommando 625 (the Berga POWs) never went to a concentration camp. At Berga, they were under the administrative control of Stalag 9C at Bad Sulza. At Berga, they worked for the SS Bauleitung under SS-Obersturmfuehrer Willy Hack. Nebenslager Berga, that housed the Buchenwald and Dora concentration camp inmates working there, was under the control of SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Rohr, from the Totenskopf guard unit out of KZ Buchewald. Again, the producer of the film knew this, but chose to disregard it. The Berga POWs received Red Cross packages whereas the KZ inmates did not. When they were sick, the Berga POWs received German military medical care and hospitalization and not KZ medical care (the medical treatment they received was inadequate, but about 70 POWs were evacuated to German military hospitals). When they died, their remains, effects and circumstances of death were reported through channels in accordance with German military regulations that complied with the Geneva Convention. The Berga POWs were guarded by Landesschutzen guards, not Totenkopf guards, and there is not a single example of an SS guard striking an American POW at Berga. The Germans who did most of the physical abuse of the American POWs at Berga were German civilian laborers and foremen. There is no clear evidence that the any of the American POWs at Berga were summarily executed like the several KZ inmates who suffered that fate at Berga. There are some significant differences between the experiences of the American POWs and the KZ inmates at Berga, a fact that the producer did not want to highlite.

While I check on some of your claims, I will ask you this: how do you know the producer did not want to "highlite" your claims in your post here?

In other words, how could I or anyone reading this thead possibly believe what you have to say?

When the producer claims or insinuates the Berga POWs were part of the Holocaust process he is wrong. They were forced laborers who suffered enormously.

But the producer does not claim or insinuate that Berga POWS were part of the Holocaust. He does claim that Allied POWs were transferred from a Stalag to Berga, some were Jews (of which you have no credible explanation as to how they were chosen), some were your "troublemakers" and some were just unfortunates.

In the mid-1990s, about 75 of the 104 still living Berga POWs applied for compensation from the German government for compensation under the Holocaust . The US Justice Department official who prepared the case for the Americans knew their case was extremely flimsy. Had the German representatives asked the appropriate questions, they would have discovered that the Berga POWs did not qualify for compensation (despite their heavy death rate and physical/mental suffering). There were many people who worked in the labor camps who were not KZ inmates, example, the British Arbeitskommando at Auschwitz.

LOL!

Source please, for ANY of this, starting with "The US Justice Department official who prepared the case for the Americans knew their case was extremely flimsy."

Why only the Berga POWs were sent to an SS project? No one knows the answer.

The question is, why were the Stalag's prisoners sent to Berga, and as you state, an SS project? Your wording is a bit suspect.

The fact that so many of the Berga POWs died in such a short time frame and that they died in the manner they did does not require Hollywood showmanship or high art that neglects all the facts to tell their story.

While I am quite interesested in their story, if you will forgive me, I would like to see your story on this post.

Not a single bit of your post is documented. Some of your assertions are what I would term as debatable, if you had a source...of which you have none.

Mark

[Tarpon27]

Scott wrote:

Thank you, Penn44 for a very informative and interesting post.

Yes, most interesting, considering there isn't a single reference to back his claims.

"The producer was told..."

Fine...how does Penn44 know that? Surely he can tell us how the producer was told, correct? Or how does he/she know?

Here's another great quote:

Penn wrote:

Some of the Jewish POWs who initally tried to conceal their religion stepped forward because they either feared being turned in by other American POWs.

Why don't you source that, okay, Scott, or Penn44?

You got some quotes from either Berga surviving Jew American POWs, or Nazi guards at the Stalag who will go with this claim? And where can I read them? Or the basis for this claim, along with almost all of Penn44's post?

Regards,

Mark

[Tarpon27]

Penn44 wrote:

At Berga, they worked for the SS Bauleitung under SS-Obersturmfuehrer Willy Hack.

As I posted earlier:

Tarpon27 wrote:

[...]

This was an SS/Military work complex called Schwalbe V, under the immediate direction of an SS Lt. Hacke, which utilized slave labor political prisoners controlled by Himmler’s SS troopers to build underground armament factories. There were many similar complexes throughout Germany for the same purposes. It was in keeping with Himmler’s plan to utilize political prisoners from all of conquered Europe as slaves in building a greater Germany. The work site was a very long and tall hillside adjacent to the Elster river. The site ran along the river bed for a considerable distance and was sufficiently large to accommodate the construction of 17 different tunnels which lead into a planned large armament factory area. The factory area had not been excavated as yet, but by the size and number of tunnels the over all planning must have been for a complex of significant size.

The slave work consisted of excavating rocks and dirt by hand and shovel after it was loosened by explosives laid by the German engineers. The men hand loaded rocks onto or shoveled slate fragments and dirt onto flatbed cars similar to coal cars. They hand pushed the cars on its track to an area where the rocks could be dumped into the Elster river. They worked with primitive drills, old mining machines and often the men were utilized in place of machine power or horse power to move heavy objects. Accidents and beatings with rubber hoses were common. Slate dust was choking and ever present. Our Volksturm guards marched the shifts of POWs to their tunnels, where they remained until the shift ended. The return to the barracks was often marred by the indifference and uncaring long waiting periods until our guards arrived to march them back to the barracks and their bunks. Even after this torture there was a further delay of the much deserved rest because they had to stand in line for the evening count of the prisoners. These repetitive, disruptive, inane counts made the suffering more harsh. Finally, the meager rations of a bowl of rotted potato or turnip top green soup and a slice of hard, grainy black bread was distributed.

[...]

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/Shapiro.html

The intro to this document:

A Medic Recalls the Horrors of Berga
by William J. Shapiro



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the recollection of a former POW who was among the Jews segregated at Stalag 9B and sent to the Berga concentration camp. Dr. Shapiro wrote this memoir in 1998, more than 50 years after being liberated. Up until a few years before, he had not written or spoken about his experience. “After more than 50 years of silence and now more than two years since I have first began this exploration, I believe I have a better understanding and somewhat clearer picture of the where, what and when of that experience and, therefore, I feel comfortable in telling my story,” he wrote. Dr. Shapiro has graciously granted permission to excerpt his memoir here.


http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/Shapiro.html

Shapiro's recollections play a part in the film, and Shapiro's obviously confirms your claim of an SS Lieutenant Hack (or Hacke) in the Berga event for US POWs.

Penn 44 writes:

At Berga, they worked for the SS Bauleitung under SS-Obersturmfuehrer Willy Hack. Nebenslager Berga, that housed the Buchenwald and Dora concentration camp inmates working there, was under the control of SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Rohr, from the Totenskopf guard unit out of KZ Buchewald. Again, the producer of the film knew this, but chose to disregard it.

But what is your point?

That somehow, the US POWs at Berga had it "better" than concentration camp inmates?

How far does one have to go to classify ANY German camp to match the apologists for them?

IOW, from a Stalag to Berga, but the Berga US POWs had it better than concentration camp inmates who had it better than the death camps in the east? Is there a rating scale along here I need to learn?

Penn44 wrote:

The Berga POWs received Red Cross packages whereas the KZ inmates did not. When they were sick, the Berga POWs received German military medical care and hospitalization and not KZ medical care (the medical treatment they received was inadequate, but about 70 POWs were evacuated to German military hospitals). When they died, their remains, effects and circumstances of death were reported through channels in accordance with German military regulations that complied with the Geneva Convention. The Berga POWs were guarded by Landesschutzen guards, not Totenkopf guards, and there is not a single example of an SS guard striking an American POW at Berga. The Germans who did most of the physical abuse of the American POWs at Berga were German civilian laborers and foremen.

Again, could you source me where the 350 American POWs received:

1. German military medical care as opposed to KZ medical care (of which the distinction is something to think about);

2. Red Cross packages...when and how often, as I am not sure Red Cross packages made it to any camp prior to being passed through captor's hands;

3. "70" of the 350 Berga American POWs went to German hospitals;

4. "When they died"...their remains, effects, etc. were reported in German military channels...which leads one startling conclusion...they were captured in the Battle of the Bulge, and within one year in German captivity in your rather benign description of their imprisonment, their better treatment over KZ prisoners, 70 managed to die, while under the transfer to German military hospitals;

5. While I am heartened that, according to you, "The Berga POWs were guarded by Landesschutzen guards, not Totenkopf guards, and there is not a single example of an SS guard striking an American POW at Berga. The Germans who did most of the physical abuse of the American POWs at Berga were German civilian laborers and foremen.", I am persdonally of the idea that those who beat me, it really doesn't matter...any way you look at it, these American POWs were probably beaten, and subjected to KZ conditions. It appears that if it is not the SS doing it, it it is okay by you, or some such rationalization.

Frankly, I find much of what you write appalling.

Forgive me, but how you can somehow twist the experience of 350 American POWs at Berga as being not quite so bad as KZ inmates, while 70 dying of them under German medical hospital care, coming from less than a year of imprisonment, and then pop up with it was German civilians that beat them, not the SS...

...as making it somehow perfectly acceptable/understandable, is amusing in a very sick and twisted way to me.

Who are you trying to save here? The reputation of SS Lt. Hack?

The SS? Nazis? Civilian Germans, who as you posted, beat American POWs?

Regards,

Mark

[Penn44]

Check my PM to you.

Sources:
The US Army's Sep-Oct 1946 trial, The US vs Merz and Metz on file at the National Archives, College Park, Maryland.

Mitchell Bard's, Forgotten Victims.

And private interviews and conversations with Stalag 9B POWs.

The information about the producer is from my private conversations with him.

The information about the US Justice Dept is based on my experience working with them on the reparations case involving the Berga POWs in the mid-1990s.

[Penn44]

Frankly, I find much of what you write appalling.

Forgive me, but how you can somehow twist the experience of 350 American POWs at Berga as being not quite so bad as KZ inmates, while 70 dying of them under German medical hospital care, coming from less than a year of imprisonment, and then pop up with it was German civilians that beat them, not the SS...

...as making it somehow perfectly acceptable/understandable, is amusing in a very sick and twisted way to me.

Who are you trying to save here? The reputation of SS Lt. Hack?

The SS? Nazis? Civilian Germans, who as you posted, beat American POWs?

Regards,

Mark

Mark, before you stick your foot any further up your mouth, you don't know me, and neither are you aware of all aspects of this case.

[Tarpon27]

Well, before I stick my foot further in my mouth, I will say this:

Penn44 wrote:

Check my PM to you.

Sources:
The US Army's Sep-Oct 1946 trial, The US vs Merz and Metz on file at the National Archives, College Park, Maryland.

Mitchell Bard's, Forgotten Victims.

And private interviews and conversations with Stalag 9B POWs.

The information about the producer is from my private conversations with him.

The information about the US Justice Dept is based on my experience working with them on the reparations case involving the Berga POWs in the mid-1990s.

--I do not have a copy of the Merz and Metz trial.

--I have read, and quoted on this thread, from Bard's book (I used a 'net source to save me from typing.)

--I do not have, as you claim private interviews and conversations with prisoners from Stalag 9B, while I made contact with one who now lives in this area where I live. We have spoken by telephone.

--I obviously did not share time with the producer of the film as you did.

--Per your final source on the Department of Justice, and reparations, I have read a newspaper account, as I recall on a former POW from Berga.

Sorry.

I don't believe anyone who comes on and posts without sourcing what they claim. If that offends you, what would you have me do?

You make some quite incredible, in my view, claims. Guggenheim is now dead and cannot defend himself or his film.

Without trying to insult you, either the film is basically inaccurate or your claims are...or somewhere in between. You are implying it was, if I may state it this way, and it is MY term, "hyperbole", from your research, and "Hollywood".

Regards,

Mark

[David Thompson]

Tarpon27 -- You said: "I don't believe anyone who comes on and posts without sourcing what they claim. If that offends you, what would you have me do?

You make some quite incredible, in my view, claims. Guggenheim is now dead and cannot defend himself or his film.

Without trying to insult you, either the film is basically inaccurate or your claims are...or somewhere in between. You are implying it was, if I may state it this way, and it is MY term, "hyperbole", from your research, and "Hollywood"."

Penn44 is new to our section of the forum. His posts have the appearance of being written by a well-informed and thoughtful person. When asked to source his story, he did so. The case or cases Penn44 is apparently referring to, Case Nr.12-1836; 12-523; 12-989; 12-2070; 120-2090 (US vs Erwin Metz et al.), tried 15 Oct 46, involving Ludwig Merz and Erwin Metz, is/are real enough and does/do exist on microfilm in the US National Archives.

If you have follow-up questions about his sources, by all means ask them. But let's get as many of the facts out on this matter as possible before raising questions about credibility. Until proven otherwise, I think Penn44 is entitled to the benefit of any doubts.