Did Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler (LSSAH) in Death Camps

[Timo]

As a footnote, Mr. Clarke, ‘personal opinions’ aren’t worth the bloody paper they are written on. Facts and argumentations with factual data is worth gold – if you hadn’t been born and raised in some American school or some such god awful place, you’d have known what studying real history means. It doesn’t mean enthusiastically shouting ‘I despise this, and that, and that too!’ on some bleeding internet website.

Credibility is gained by factual approach.

Hmmm. A remarkable opinion by a man who, under his previous nickname, condemned my research in the Parfondruy murder case as:

I never heared of that place but Its all lies and these "civilians" were helping the Amis and deserved their fate as they were partisans

It seems Facts and argumentations with factual data is worth gold as long as it fits your worship of the SS, dear Thomas.

if you hadn’t been born and raised in some American school or some such god awful place, you’d have known what studying real history means. It doesn’t mean enthusiastically shouting ‘I despise this, and that, and that too!’

I am sure that your childhood and education in Nazi Germany gave you perfect understanding of studying real history and that nobody in the Reichs educational system encouraged people to enthusiastically shout I despise this, and that, and that too!, right Standarten?

Karl Ullrich. Now there's credibility (...) gained by factual approach. What's next? Agte's objective opinion again?

[David C. Clarke]

I must confess to the slightest hint of amusement here. I just checked "Chief Whip's" profile. It seems that he/she has no interests, no occupation and no location. That, and the clear failure of Chief Lip to answer any of my questions about this topic, render his complaints as insubstantial as a puff of internet smoke in my eyes.
And, I'm one ahead of you Chief Lip--if you had read my posts in the "Reference Forum", you would know that I have already expresed an interest in Ullrich's book, which JJF Publishing intends to translate into English shortly. I doubt that the book will do much to clense 3rd SS's rightly tarnished image in the eyes of history (something tells me that the Nazi Camp system will not be mentioned), but the combat accounts should prove interesting.
So, out of sheer disinterest, I will sign off now. Cheers, D

[Michael Miller]

Do you really mean to suggest that the connection between the "Totenkopf" Division, formed directly from the SS-Totenkopfverbände in October 1939, is not well documented? It was formed and led by the first Inspector of Concentration Camps, the man who formulated the rules on punishment of inmates and conduct of guards in the camps, Theodor Eicke. Many of its senior officers, such as Max Simon and Hellmuth Becker, had originally served in responsible positions under Eicke at Oranienburg. Many, probably most, of its troops did not serve in concentration camps at any time but to suggest that there was no clear connection between 3.SS-Pz.Div. "Totenkopf" and the Konzentrationslager is ludicrous.

For the record, though, I do not despise "Totenkopf" or any other entire Waffen-SS division. Overall, I admire the average Waffen-SS soldier as honorable, courageous, and tragically mislabeled as "criminal".

Regards,
~ Mike Miller

[Andy H]

Hi David

Hope your keeping well

Mr Whippy, since you are so forthright with your posts, in which if my memory serves me right you called me a tad rascist, can you please finally give an opinion on this one question which you avoid all the time.

If the A-Bombs dropped on Japan were un justified, what other option would you have suggested at the time to the allied high command

In expectation

[Chief Whip]

“ […] (Totenkopf) the SS-Totenkopfverbände in October 1939, is not well documented? […]

Come come Mr. Miller, not so demagogic, I was doing the other members here a favour by forcing them to back up their talk by looking up facts – that is the way a real discussion is held. They do not realise that.

The SS-Totenkopfverbände, is a sad page but nevertheless irrelevant to Totenkopf general history. The early Totenkopf men had to enter a less glamorous branch of the S.S., case closed. The ‘demonisation’ that occurred because of this would only be justified IF it seems everyone one of them liked guarding KZ, or IF they wanted to.

Let me also remind you that these KZ were, before 1939 simply ‘punishment’ camps for political prisoners. So if people think Waffen-SS guards had to execute the Endlösung in all of its macabre details, they are dead wrong.

I found it highly amusing how Mr. Clarke, who once so enthusiastically hurled him on the discussion, like a drunk seeing a glass of alcohol, now “signed off with disinterest”. An dishonest symptom of defeat.

Minor remark; there were about 8.000 men in the Standarte at that time, yes?

“ […] to suggest that there was no clear connection between 3.SS-Pz.Div. "Totenkopf" and the Konzentrationslager is ludicrous.”

Well, the simplified version we hear from you is mainstream. This mainstream way of thinking is very easy and no brain is needed for it, chimpanzees and other apes can master mainstream thinking as well.

If you meant, that Totenkopf’s basis was Standarte Totenkopf, with men who served as guards in punishment camps, you are right. But you need to stress out that these camps were not DEATH CAMPS.

If you mean that, and I think you do judging from your use of Totenkopf’s final unit designation (Panzerdivision), Totenkopf was continually associated with the ‘Final Solution’ and KZ, than I would like to some evidence on that. It seems to be a persistent rumour that there some kind of ‘exchange’ between guard-personnel and Totenkopf. Most likely this will be wounded men send there to recover (hence the hospital facilities at f.ex. Dachau). I see nothing wrong with that, nor does that prove anything about the men of Totenkopf. So all ‘evilness’ people attempt to make stick on Totenkopf, I refer that to the kingdom of fantasy.

The lie knows twenty languages.

[Timo]

Thomas,

Not long ago you were banned from this forum for repeatedly (constantly) insulting the other visitors of this forum. Do you consider it a wise move to come back under a new name but to display exactly the same behaviour as when you acted as "StandartenfueherSS"?

Just my 2 cents,
Timo

[David C. Clarke]

Hi Andy, I hope all is well with you.
Hi Mike, how are you doing?
Hi Timo, I shouldn't worry so much about Cheif Whip, he hears nothing that is said to him, which is why this thread bored me. If he wants to think he has "won" some sort of rhetorical victory--by all means let him. I wasn't going to sit here and type paragraphs out of Sydnor that he wasn't going to acknowledge as being factual anyway. But I did return to this thread because the Cheifly one tossed out a line that amuses even me. It's a real gem, even to the jaded:

" The early Totenkopf men had to enter a less glamorous branch of the S.S., case closed."

Hahahaha! It' truly priceless and I think I may add it to the bottom of all of my posts. Cheers, David

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

What I find interresting in this degenaration of this thread is, that Chief Whip is accusing David for not using sources, but uses none himself.

Sorry for this, but I just wanted to point it out to the Chief himself. I'm not saying your points are wrong (or anyone elses), as I do not know as much about this topic as many other members - but I would like to see a couple of quotes to substantiate your arguments...

BTW, this raises the point of importantce of quotes used here - see my thread in the reference forum!

Christian

[Bjørn from Norway]

I must admit I followed this discussion only because David C Clarke paricipated. How come that noone mentions that a large part of concentration guards were not SS at all, but Luftwaffe/Heer personell, as well as other organisations? Even "Stahlhelm".

B.

[David C. Clarke]

Thank you for that Bjorn and my personal apologies for not contributing much in the way of solid information on this thread. I just refuse to be drawn into a fruitless, time-wasting argument. Please check the "Comments" forum for Cheshire Yeomanry's post, because I think that will be my next real project. Very Best Regards, David

[harry palmer]

Getting back to the topic of the behaviour of former combat soldiers assigned to concentration camp duties; courageous front line service by no means necessarily enhanced an individual's humanity, particularly not in the SS- a striking example is Joseph Mengele who earned the EKII and EKI on the Russian front. only being assigned to KZ duties after suffering wounds. See http://www.crimelibrary.com/mengele

Examples of former fighting troops displaying behaviour incompatible with the KZ regime are isolated, but not entirely unknown. At Rehmsdorf camp-
"Because of his intercession with authority on behalf of the prisoners Moller made himself unpopular with the Camp Commandant, who was merciless. Others who were humane enough to risk the Obersturmfuhrer's displeasure were Rottenfuhrer Kurt Hebestreit , NCO in charge of the stores , who turned a blind eye to Tommy's larcenies, and Obersharfuhrer Saurbier, who prevented his colleagues from beating up prisoners while he was present. Both of these men had been fighting soldiers before being compulsorily being transferred to the SS, and when the Obersturmfuhrer heard of Saurbier's allegiance to the old code he arrested him and sent him to jail in Buchenwald."
THE WHITE RABBIT Bruce Marshall
Evans Brothers 1952


In the landmark documentary series "The World at War", the producers wished " to make it clear that former SS Lance Corporal Richard Bock has been exonerated by investigators of Nazi crimes at Auschwitz. He has been commended for steadfastly refusing orders to take part in the killings."

[Dan]

David, you've shown good restraint. One must keep in mind the respect due to older people is of a higher order that due to a younger person who has racially insulted you, as was the case in the old forum.

You've done well.

Regards
Dan

[Leibstandarte_reenactor]

Getting back to the topic of the behaviour of former combat soldiers assigned to concentration camp duties; courageous front line service by no means necessarily enhanced an individual's humanity, particularly not in the SS- a striking example is Joseph Mengele who earned the EKII and EKI on the Russian front. only being assigned to KZ duties after suffering wounds. See http://www.crimelibrary.com/mengele

Examples of former fighting troops displaying behaviour incompatible with the KZ regime are isolated, but not entirely unknown. At Rehmsdorf camp-
"Because of his intercession with authority on behalf of the prisoners Moller made himself unpopular with the Camp Commandant, who was merciless. Others who were humane enough to risk the Obersturmfuhrer's displeasure were Rottenfuhrer Kurt Hebestreit , NCO in charge of the stores , who turned a blind eye to Tommy's larcenies, and Obersharfuhrer Saurbier, who prevented his colleagues from beating up prisoners while he was present. Both of these men had been fighting soldiers before being compulsorily being transferred to the SS, and when the Obersturmfuhrer heard of Saurbier's allegiance to the old code he arrested him and sent him to jail in Buchenwald."
THE WHITE RABBIT Bruce Marshall
Evans Brothers 1952


In the landmark documentary series "The World at War", the producers wished " to make it clear that former SS Lance Corporal Richard Bock has been exonerated by investigators of Nazi crimes at Auschwitz. He has been commended for steadfastly refusing orders to take part in the killings."

I find that very interesting are there anybooks about SS-lance Corpral Richard Bock?

[Ostuf Charlemagne]

Kommissar Clarke : so you despise the 3rd SS...

Now ,more than ever , I LOVE the Totenkopf division .

Too sad I haven't served with them .

[Rob - wssob2]

Kommissar Clarke : so you despise the 3rd SS...

Now ,more than ever , I LOVE the Totenkopf division .

Too sad I haven't served with them .

Ostuf, just imagine if you had served with the SSTK...

Post May 1945 you would have breaking rocks and cutting timber for Kommissar Clarke in the dappled forests of Siberia!