Tarpon27 wrote:Well, I guess part of this issue comes down to the following:
1. Scott asserts that ALL train travelers, including Jews shipped to the GeneralGovernment, were routinely subjected to a disinfestation process while ON the trains, and his one claim to this, is Weisel;
Er, no. I never said ALL anything. I said that travellers travelling in sanctioned areas east of the Reich's borders were routinely stopped for inspection and disinfestation, similar to insect inspection checkpoints here in the Soutwestern USA (intended to control fruit pests). I have talked to Germans who have undergone this when they were travelling from eastern territories into the Reich. And I have stated that 25 million in Axis Europe were deloused with Zyklon (i.e., their clothing
was deloused for you obfuscators) according to company reports, which I have cited many times before from the paper by F. P. Berg, "Typhus and the Jews."
Dr. Mathis objected because of the depiction of Jews being seen as "dirty" in some of the primary sources cited by Berg--and I accepted that objection as valid but countered that the same consescending language would be used in a "Third World" context or even when describing "Oakies" or Whites from Appalachia in the same time period--so one shouldn't read too much into these "nobless oblige" efforts at public sanitation in so-called backward areas, which the Generalgouvernement certainly was.
Prof. Zimmerman (1942) wrote:
Typhus has always reigned as an endemic disease in the Eastern and Southeastern provinces of the former Polish state.
This was especially true for the provinces of Wilna, Nowogrodek and Stanislawow. Here during severe outbreaks, about 5-10% and more of the population would fall ill annually whereas in the Western parts of Poland, the disease declined steadily over the years so that it was virtually unknown in the present Warthegau or else occurred only in isolated cases or clusters without any tendency to spread. During the last years before the present war, the pestilence had almost been eradicated within the central parts of the country, just as conditions in the Eastern parts were also improving. That the present wartime dislocations would again increase the frequency of typhus was to be expected since it had always been a typical plague of war, but the magnitude of the reoccurrence in 1940 was many times less than had been expected
." [Emphasis mine~Scott]
Source: Appendix C, "Typhus and the Jews" by F.P. Berg.
I also said that one of the functions handled at concentration camps was sanitation and delousing. This was true of Dachau and Majdanek and Auschwitz. I cited an example of Wiesel, deported from Hungary to Birkenau and deloused there. I also cited Spielberg's film Schindler's List
, which showed Jews from Plaszow deloused at the Sauna at Birkenau and then being put back on the train. I do this because sometimes it is necessary to use the Holo-genre itself, even if it is fiction, to illustrate a point that seems to go against the grain of True Holo-Belief.
We are taught from infancy that Jews were gassed in concentration camps exclusively--and we believe it because we cannot even imagine what delousing is other than a shampoo with RID™ after the kids have played with "those foreign kids." (And your Mom also bleached the sheets and pillow cases and you never even knew it.)
No, I did NOT say that NO Jews were gassed and I did NOT say that ALL Jews were deloused (for those of you from Absurdistan).
2. Traces of Zyklon B were found in piles of human hair, found in such camps;
Big deal. I provided alternative explanations that were simpler than esoteric mass-murder fantasies and Hollywood-style props in museums.
Two possibilities that are more likely than mass-murder are a) the hair was disinfested of lice with Zyklon after being cut, and/or b) that the warehouse containing the hair was disinfested with Zyklon. Do you deny that Zyklon was used to disinfest buildings, Mark? Of course it was! And a bunch of lousy hair would be a prime warehouse to fumigate. Yes, the lice and nits will die if simply wrapped in paper and stored, but how long? Better to gas it at once and then wrap it up to minimize the chance of other handlers becoming infested.
On the other hand, the Holocaustian explanation that the presence of Zyklon is explained by the barbers cutting the hair post mortem (after homicidal gassing) makes little sense. It is obviously far easier to cut the hair of living subjects than corpses. Bomba the Barber in the Shoah
documentary said nothing of cutting the hair of corpses; no, he cut the hair of those before
they were gassed to death. He also said that he cut their hair IN the gaschamber but most Holo-commentators have interpreted this as error. But the least likely possibility is that when they emptied the gaschamber they then separated the clippings from the corpses. (Yes, I know he was referring to Treblinka where Zyklon has never been alleged to have been used.) In any case the Holo-answers are the least probable.
Basically we have a bunch of dead hair intending to serve as a symbol for something it is not-necessarily: the hair of gassed Jews. You refuse to calculate whether the 7 metric tons of hair found by the Soviets at Auschwitz could have come from the 1.2 million Jews who perished at Auschwitz so I can't see what the fuss is about all this dead hair.
3. While Zyklon is a pesticide, it is not a "disinfectant" (at least by any common definition I know of per "disinfection");
I have not argued that HCN or Zyklon was a disinfectant; however, the Germans are fond of the term Disinfektion
, when they really mean disinfestation. Disinfection kills germs, while disinfestation kills bugs and other vermin.
4. Lice, the source of typhus, and the insects of the family Anoplura, many of which are parasites, can only survive in fairly rigid conditions including temperature gradients and a food source (a "host"). Therefore, once infected clothing and hair is removed from the human host, the lice will not survive.
No, it will not survive ultimatly but it has to be handled first and it is louse ridden. Lice are frequently carried by warm-blooded vermin, and thus you have not eliminated the disease vectors if you just dump it into a warehouse.
Now, then, if the hair was found to have residues of Zyklon B, it is doubtful it was still attached to a living human, as in order to kill lice, concentrations of Zyklon would be in the range of what even Carlos Whitlock Porter quotes:
**2**TRUTH: actual dosage: 16 gr/m2 over a 24 hour exposure to kill clothes moths according to Document NI-9912, Directions for Use of Zyklon. The area must be ventilated for 2 days.
The argument that the hair was attached to a living human is absurd and I can hardly believe you are serious. Zyklon was never used to delouse people--just their clothing, luggage, and buildings, like railway cars, for example. When you fumigate a train you either throw in some cans of Zyklon and wait for however long the manufacturer says you need to and then air it out for the recommended time. (I have a photograph showing the fumigation of an airplane with Zyklon which I need to have scanned one of these days.) Or, you pull the train into a fumigation barn and a high-tech Zyklon Kreislaufprinzip fumigator (such as the ones found at Dachau) fumigates the car(s) using a minimum quantity of Zyklon and a minimal length of time to complete the process. This information is taken from Berg's paper on fumigation, drawing on original German documents.
Here is a photo of a modern fumigation chamber used to gas shipping containers, although a different gas is used:
tarpon27 wrote:At this concentration, and over 24 hours, you would dead lice in hair, and dead people in minutes.
I cannot believe you are serious. You must think that I have argued the people were still ON the trains when they were fumigated. Absurd! They would be dead--of course--which, parenthetically, is why the idea of killing Jews in basements is so absurd to me. A point which I have made many times.
It certainly would not have been devised by an engineer or anyone with any common sense--but it is a perfect story for mythology. Why ship them to special camps and cram them into basements when you can keep them in the train to kill them with gas?
What I said was that people (not necessarily all and not necessarily Jews enroute to a camp, where they would be deloused, and were deloused) would get OFF the train at the inspection station. If they passed inspection they would remove their clothes anyway (if they hadn't already) and the CLOTHES would be gassed using some method (steam, hot-air, Zyklon, possibly microwaves, etc.) and they would be made to shower (whether they needed one or not). If they did not pass inspection then individuals would be shaved and deloused with chemicals on their person. Petroleum works well because it smothers the lice AND the nits. But other chemicals may have been used as well.
The Germans did not have DDT powder until the latter part of the war and not in quantity. Some of it may have be saved for German troops or German hospitals. In any case, the Allies had plenty of DDT for liberation and it simplified the containment of typhus epidemics, which were still a grave concern--at this point widespread throughout the old Reich, not just in concentration camps filled with inmates that had been force-marched in the evacuation of eastern camps. All of this is explained in Berg's papers for those wishing to learn something.
So, then, where did the HCN traces come from?
Most likely explanation is that the hair was gassed before storage and/or the warehouse was fumigated at some point (as such a building would be).
Well, Scott says it is Occam's Razor:
Scott wrote:Or the converse explanation, which is again, a good example of always seeing things through the Holo-Speculum darkly. Occam's Razor, Chuck: the simplest answer is probably the best one. The bundles of hair were disinfested. And certainly the warehouse storing it would be too.
Indeed. And the simplest explantion for your attempt to argue that I claimed that Jews were gassed for delousing in railway barns which supposedly explains the HCN in their hair shorn later at the barbershop and spa, followed by five-star accomodations at Auschwitz, is that you are intentionally obfuscating my position. I don't see how anybody could have interpreted the living Jews were deloused with Zyklon based on what I wrote unless they were willfully attempting to pull some wool...
tarpon27 wrote:But he already says that the Jews were disinfested on the trains, complete with showers and a petroleum bath, new clothes, etc., and yet the now disinfested Jews have to not only go through a second disinfestation at the camp, but so does their hair, and the warehouses it is stored in...even though such hair could not support lice.
I said nothing of the sort. I said that railway cars and travellers were routinely disinfested to control the spread of disease by German wartime authorities. Jews might be too--depending on their destination and where they would pass. But if they are locked in the cattle-cars there is no need to do anything until they get to the camp. Delousing was certainly done in camps. If it wasn't then disease would have overrun the camps and the camps served the hygiene needs of the greater district (at least in the Generalgouvernement). Not everybody sent to a camp was killed. To get to the Sauna at Birkenau for delousing, for example, you marched right past Krema III. This is what happened to Schindler's Jews enroute from Plaszow to Birkenau for delousing, and then off to some other labor camp.
Now, Charles Bunch has posted from witness Mueller's account that ammonium chloride was used to wash hair.
I have never read that, but I can say that in my business, quatenary ammonium compounds are by far the most commonly used disinfectant.
I don't doubt that ammonium chloride was used as a disinfectant. They may have washed the hair in it. So what? They also used bleach as a disinfectant and swabbed the decks with chemicals in their barracks and other buildings. Wiesel says they were made to do this even when they evacuated Auschwitz. We used to do that in every barracks I've ever stayed in as well when I was in the Army.
Chuck's source is Mueller. This is another example of using canonical evidence--the mountain must come to Mohammed to make the evidence work. Any traces of ammonium chloride residue in this dead hair? Hmmm? The museum probably didn't even test for that. They just found some traces of HCN (big deal) and bingo--we have "scientific confirmation" of Holy Scripture. Praise the Lord and the Big-H.
This conversation is like arguing with Creationists.