Auschwitz

[Roderick]

The movie MOLOCH shows a passage where Eva Braun speaks about Auschwitz but Herr Hitler doesn't understand. He asked Martin Bormann: "Martin, What is Auschwitz? Where is it?" Bormann responded:
"My führer, it is only imagination from this woman! this place does not exist!"
Did Adolf Hitler have knowledge of Auschwitz?

Roderick

[wenty]

Well, i am just reading a book which says that Hitler never really ordered the Holocaust, and that most of the atrocities were kept secret from him by Himmler in particular. I believe he knew about Auschwitz, but perhaps not the extent of what was going on there. The same goes for the other concentration camps too. I hope this helps. Cheers.

[Pr. Reinhard]

Why is it not possible to proof that Adolf Hitler knew about -let alone order such thing as- mass gassings? Well, maybe because HE NEVER KNEW. I think other individuals were behind the mass gassings.

[Nick Pears]

I think other individuals were behind the mass gassings.

'Think' isn't good enough, sources to support your arguments please.

Are you seriously suggesting that a man who was so obsessively controlling that he micromanaged the wars in the east and west to the horror of his general staff would have been oblivious to a program of mass extermination that required a level of logistical organisation as complex as the Holocaust?

[Pr. Reinhard]

'Think' isn't good enough, sources to support your arguments please.

Well, i suppose that if Adolf Hitler did not know about nor order mass gassings someone else must have been responsible. My greatest support to the argument that Adolf Hitler never knew about mass gassings is that there is no proof that he did. So if you think he did know about the mass gassings, then i must ask you to support your arguments, please.

Are you seriously suggesting that a man who was so obsessively controlling that he micromanaged the wars in the east and west to the horror of his general staff would have been oblivious to a program of mass extermination that required a level of logistical organisation as complex as the Holocaust?

I am seriously thinking about the reason why there is no proof that a man who was so obsessively controlling that he micromanaged the wars in the east and west to the horror of his general staff would have been oblivious to a program of mass extermination that required a level of logistical organisation as complex as the Holocaust.

[xcalibur]

Why is it not possible to proof that Adolf Hitler knew about -let alone order such thing as- mass gassings? Well, maybe because HE NEVER KNEW. I think other individuals were behind the mass gassings.

Maybe you could start another thread with a list of all the events during the Third Reich that Hitler "never knew about". I'd be very curious to know what other major events were kept from him by "other individuals". And just who were these people? They must have been a very clever lot indeed.

[Kelt]

It seems unlikely that Hiter had no knowledge of what was going on in the camps... The Warsaw Ghetto would have been ample evidence that he knew full well the policy of starvation and industrialised genocide that was being perpetrated against the jews and 'sub-races'.

I'm sure there were a multitude of atrocities that Hitler WAS unaware of, certain things that happen at a level where field commanders make decisions not sanctioned by high command.

But the extermination of the jews?

Please... where did Hitler think the jews were going?

Alien abduction?

I'm confident that Hitler was fully aware of The Final Solution and what that expression meant in real terms.

[Roberto]

So if you think he did know about the mass gassings, then i must ask you to support your arguments, please.

There's much evidence that he knew about the mass killings (which is what matters to history), but your issue is the killings by gassing, right?

OK, here's an exhibit:

Ich habe aber auch keinen Zweifel darüber gelassen, daß, wenn die Völker Europas wieder nur als Aktienpakete dieser internationalen Geld- und Finanzverschwörer angesehen werden, dann auch jenes Volk mit zur Verantwortung gezogen werden wird, das der eigentliche Schuldige an dieses mörderischen Ringen ist: Das Judentum! Ich habe weiter keinen darüber im Unklaren gelassen, daß dieses Mal nicht nur Millionen Kinder von Europäern der arischen Völker verhungern werden, nicht nur Millionen erwachsener Männer den Tod erleiden und nicht nur Hunderttausende an Frauen und Kindern in den Städten verbrannt und zu Tode bombardiert werden dürfen, ohne daß der eigentliche Schuldige, wenn auch durch humanere Mittel, seine Schuld zu büssen hat.

I have also left no doubt that, if the nations of Europe are again to be regarded as mere shares to be bought and sold by those international money and finance conspirators, then that race, Jewry, which is the real guilty party in this murderous struggle, will be saddled with the responsibility. I also made it clear that this time, not only would millions of children of European Aryan races starve, not only would millions of grown men meet their death, and not only would millions of women and children be burned or bombed to death in the cities, but that the real culprit would atone for his guilt, even if by more humane means.

Political Testament, page 3

Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/nazis-words/

What "more humane means" could Hitler have been talking about in his political testament?

[Pr. Reinhard]

It seems unlikely that Hiter had no knowledge of what was going on in the camps... The Warsaw Ghetto would have been ample evidence that he knew full well the policy of starvation and industrialised genocide that was being perpetrated against the jews and 'sub-races'.

I'm sure there were a multitude of atrocities that Hitler WAS unaware of, certain things that happen at a level where field commanders make decisions not sanctioned by high command.

But the extermination of the jews?

Please... where did Hitler think the jews were going?

Alien abduction?

I'm confident that Hitler was fully aware of The Final Solution and what that expression meant in real terms.

Adolf Hitler knew the Jews were being transported to concentration camps, for this there is evidence.

There is no evidence Adolf Hitler ever ordered, or knew about mass gassings, please do not feel confident about that wich is not proven.

[Pr. Reinhard]

So if you think he did know about the mass gassings, then i must ask you to support your arguments, please.

There's much evidence that he knew about the mass killings (which is what matters to history), but your issue is the killings by gassing, right?

OK, here's an exhibit:

Ich habe aber auch keinen Zweifel darüber gelassen, daß, wenn die Völker Europas wieder nur als Aktienpakete dieser internationalen Geld- und Finanzverschwörer angesehen werden, dann auch jenes Volk mit zur Verantwortung gezogen werden wird, das der eigentliche Schuldige an dieses mörderischen Ringen ist: Das Judentum! Ich habe weiter keinen darüber im Unklaren gelassen, daß dieses Mal nicht nur Millionen Kinder von Europäern der arischen Völker verhungern werden, nicht nur Millionen erwachsener Männer den Tod erleiden und nicht nur Hunderttausende an Frauen und Kindern in den Städten verbrannt und zu Tode bombardiert werden dürfen, ohne daß der eigentliche Schuldige, wenn auch durch humanere Mittel, seine Schuld zu büssen hat.

I have also left no doubt that, if the nations of Europe are again to be regarded as mere shares to be bought and sold by those international money and finance conspirators, then that race, Jewry, which is the real guilty party in this murderous struggle, will be saddled with the responsibility. I also made it clear that this time, not only would millions of children of European Aryan races starve, not only would millions of grown men meet their death, and not only would millions of women and children be burned or bombed to death in the cities, but that the real culprit would atone for his guilt, even if by more humane means.

Political Testament, page 3

Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/nazis-words/

What "more humane means" could Hitler have been talking about in his political testament?

I repeat myself: There is no evidence Adolf Hitler ever ordered, or knew about mass gassings.

[Roberto]

So if you think he did know about the mass gassings, then i must ask you to support your arguments, please.

There's much evidence that he knew about the mass killings (which is what matters to history), but your issue is the killings by gassing, right?

OK, here's an exhibit:

Ich habe aber auch keinen Zweifel darüber gelassen, daß, wenn die Völker Europas wieder nur als Aktienpakete dieser internationalen Geld- und Finanzverschwörer angesehen werden, dann auch jenes Volk mit zur Verantwortung gezogen werden wird, das der eigentliche Schuldige an dieses mörderischen Ringen ist: Das Judentum! Ich habe weiter keinen darüber im Unklaren gelassen, daß dieses Mal nicht nur Millionen Kinder von Europäern der arischen Völker verhungern werden, nicht nur Millionen erwachsener Männer den Tod erleiden und nicht nur Hunderttausende an Frauen und Kindern in den Städten verbrannt und zu Tode bombardiert werden dürfen, ohne daß der eigentliche Schuldige, wenn auch durch humanere Mittel, seine Schuld zu büssen hat.

I have also left no doubt that, if the nations of Europe are again to be regarded as mere shares to be bought and sold by those international money and finance conspirators, then that race, Jewry, which is the real guilty party in this murderous struggle, will be saddled with the responsibility. I also made it clear that this time, not only would millions of children of European Aryan races starve, not only would millions of grown men meet their death, and not only would millions of women and children be burned or bombed to death in the cities, but that the real culprit would atone for his guilt, even if by more humane means.

Political Testament, page 3

Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/nazis-words/

What "more humane means" could Hitler have been talking about in his political testament?

I repeat myself: There is no evidence Adolf Hitler ever ordered, or knew about mass gassings.

How about trying to answer my question, instead of repeating yourself?

[David Thompson]

Pr. Reinhard -- In addition to answering Roberto's question, would you please answer this question: "If Hitler was aware of the mass murders of Jews, why is his knowledge of the technique of mass gassings important?

[Roberto]

Let's have a look at some more exhibits.

As German historian Christian Gerlach has plausibly argued, it is reasonable to assume that Hitler's order for the "final solution", which was more of a "go ahead" conferring the Führer's blessing to exterminatory initiatives from many sides, a "you may" rather than a "you shall", was given at a meeting between Hitler and high-ranking officials of the Nazi party on 12 December 1941. Goebbels' diary entry regarding Hitler's statements on 12 December 1941 read as follows:

[…]Bezüglich der Judenfrage ist der Führer entschlossen, reinen Tisch zu machen. Er hat den Juden prophezeit, daß, wenn sie noch einmal einen Weltkrieg herbeiführen würden, sie dabei ihre Vernichtung erleben würden. Das ist keine Phrase gewesen. Der Weltkrieg ist da, die Vernichtung des Judentums muß die notwendige Folge sein.[…]

Translation:

[…]In respect of the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would experience their annihilation in it.[my emphasis] That wasn't just a catch-word. The world war is here, and the annihilation of Jewry must be the necessary consequence.[…]

Source:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/nazis-words/

What this "annihilation of Jewry" meant and how it was to be brought about becomes apparent from the recollections of Hitler's statements by another participant in the meeting, governor of Poland Hans Frank. In a speech to members of his staff on 16 December 1941, he stated the following:

[…]"As far as the Jews are concerned, I want to tell you quite frankly, that they must be done away with in one way or another. The Fuehrer said once: should united Jewry again succeed in provoking a world war, the blood of not only the nations which have been forced into the war by them, will be shed, but the Jew will have found his end in Europe * * *
"Gentlemen, I must ask you to rid yourselves of all feeling of pity. We must annihilate the Jews, wherever we find them and wherever it is possible, in order to maintain here the structure of the Reich as a whole. This will, naturally, be achieved by other methods than those pointed out by Bureau Chief Dr. Hummel. Nor can the judges of the Special Courts be made responsible for it, because of the limitations of the framework of the legal procedure. Such outdated views cannot be applied to such gigantic and unique events. We must find at any rate, a way which leads to the goal, and my thoughts are working in that direction.
"The Jews represent for us also extraordinarily malignant gluttons. We have now approximately 2,500,000 of them in the General Government, perhaps with the Jewish mixtures and everything that goes with it, 3,500,000 Jews. We cannot shoot or poison those 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take measures, which will lead, somehow, to their annihilation, and this in connection with the gigantic measures to be determined in discussions from the Reich. The General Government must become free of Jews, the same as the Reich. Where and how this is to be achieved is a matter for the offices which we must appoint and create here. Their activities will be brought to your attention in due course."[…]

Source:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Frank.htm

Emphases are mine. The first is to point out the similarity with Goebbels' diary entry, which suggests that Frank was referring to the same source as Goebbels - the Führer's utterances on 12 December 1941 in which he harked back to his "prophecy" made years before. The second is to point out a passage where it becomes very clear that "annihilation" was meant in a physical, homicidal sense and that it had been decided upon on an overall and not just regional level, hence Frank's reference to "gigantic measures to be determined in discussions from the Reich".

The "discussions from the Reich" that Frank referred to were the so-called Wannsee Conference that took place on 20 January 1942, in which Frank was represented by State Secretary Dr. Bühler and where the intended fate of European Jews was outlined as follows:

[…]Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.

The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history.)

In the course of the practical execution of the final solution, Europe will be combed through from west to east. Germany proper, including the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, will have to be handled first due to the housing problem and additional social and political necessities.[…]

Source of quote:

http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html

While these passages expressly address only the fate of the able-bodied Jews capable of working, the intended fate of non-working Jews is implicit. If the working Jews were to be "eliminated by natural causes" (i.e. worked to death) and the survivors were eventually to be "treated accordingly", there can be no doubt that the non-working and therefore useless Jews were to be "treated accordingly" right away.

The original plan to "comb" Europe from west to east suffered an alteration pursuant to the request formulated by State Secretary Dr. Bühler:

[…]State Secretary Dr. Bühler stated that the General Government would welcome it if the final solution of this problem could be begun in the General Government, since on the one hand transportation does not play such a large role here nor would problems of labor supply hamper this action. Jews must be removed from the territory of the General Government as quickly as possible, since it is especially here that the Jew as an epidemic carrier represents an extreme danger and on the other hand he is causing permanent chaos in the economic structure of the country through continued black market dealings. Moreover, of the approximately 2 1/2 million Jews concerned, the majority is unfit for work.[…]

Source:
http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html

Contrary to the original intention, the "final solution of this problem" thus commenced in the General Government, as noted by Goebbels in his diary entry of 27 March 1942, ten days after the deportations from Lublin to Belzec extermination camp. It is worth while to read the whole of Goebbels' diary entry of that day, for Goebbels' notes make clear that the "barbaric process" of deportation and liquidation of the Jews from the General Government was but the beginning of the execution of the "final solution of this problem" outlined at the Wannsee Conference. It also leaves no room for doubt about the genocidal nature of this "final solution":

Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

The former Gauleiter of Vienna, who is to carry this measure through, is doing it with considerable circumspection and according to a method that does not attract too much attention. A judgment is being visited upon the Jews that, while barbaric, is fully deserved by them. The prophesy which the Fuehrer made about them for having brought on a new world war is beginning to come true in a most terrible manner. One must not be sentimental in these matters. If we did not fight the Jews, they would destroy us. It's a life-and-death struggle between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus. No other government and no other regime would have the strength for such a global solution of this question. Here, too, the Fuehrer is the undismayed champion of a radical solution necessitated by conditions and therefore inexorable. Fortunately a whole series of possibilities presents itself for us in wartime that would be denied us in peacetime. We shall have to profit by this.

The ghettoes that will be emptied in the cities of the General Government now will be refilled with Jews thrown out of the Reich. This process is to be repeated from time to time. There is nothing funny in it for the Jews, and the fact that Jewry's representatives in England and America are today organizing and sponsoring the war against Germany must be paid for dearly by its representatives in Europe - and that's only right.

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goe ... 942-mar-27

Emphases are mine.

In his diary entry of 27 March 1942, Goebbels referred to a "pretty barbaric" procedure "not to be described here more definitely".

What procedure could he have been talking about?

He also stated that the Führer was aware that

[...]A judgment is being visited upon the Jews that, while barbaric, is fully deserved by them. The prophesy which the Fuehrer made about them for having brought on a new world war is beginning to come true in a most terrible manner.[...]

and that

[...]Here, too, the Fuehrer is the undismayed champion of a radical solution necessitated by conditions and therefore inexorable.[...]

Are we asked to believe that the "undismayed chamption" of a "barbaric judgement" being visited on the Jews was unaware of one of the main methods by which this "judgement" was being "visited" upon the Jews?

[Pr. Reinhard]

What "more humane means" could Hitler have been talking about in his political testament?

I do not know, Roberto, i rather not speculate. But maybe you can help me, and proof Adolf Hitler knew about or ordered mass gassings?

[Pr. Reinhard]

Roberto very nice. But still there has been no proof showed to me that Adolf Hitler knew about or ordered mass gassings.

If Hitler was aware of the mass murders of Jews, why is his knowledge of the technique of mass gassings important?

David Thompson, as moderator of Holocaust and Warcrimes you maybe do not think it is important. I study Adolf Hitler for some time now, and i would very much like to know if he knew about or ordered mass gassings, ofcourse this is also very important for history's sake.