Auschwitz

Roberto · Post by **Roberto** » 05 Jun 2003 23:21

Every creature, folks. Even

and those who, as a fellow poster once put it, are less nice than these animals.

witness · Post by **witness** » 05 Jun 2003 23:29

This correspondence reminds me this exercise..
Sometimes it gets boring indeed but sometimes it is kind of fun.

Maple 01 · Post by **Maple 01** » 05 Jun 2003 23:35

OK in the sprit of understanding

Adolf did two things which all the world should be grateful for

1. He inspired Mel Brooks to write the 'Producers' - who can forget 'Springtime for Hitler?'

2. He shot himself, admittedly its unfortunate that he didn't do it back in 1918, but 1945 was better than not at all

Regards

-Nick

witness · Post by **witness** » 05 Jun 2003 23:42

I agree Nick.
As for the second point it was definetely the best thing he ever did , but even here he was much helped by the "untermench from the East ".

Regards

Maple 01 · Post by **Maple 01** » 05 Jun 2003 23:50

"untermench from the East "

Yep, a big 'Thank-you to the Untermench' for concentrating of the 'great leader's' mind

'And a late result comming in......Herrenvolk 0. Untermench 1'

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 06 Jun 2003 00:44

Mr. Thompson wrote to Mr. Mills:

This raises an interesting point. If "there is no definitive indication that Hitler ordered that his authorisations for killing be applied specifically to Jews," what do you make of:

(1) The statements by Heinrich Himmler to the effect that Hitler entrusted him with the task of exterminating the Jews, made:
(a) to Bruno Streckenbach in May or Jun 1941
(b) to Rudolf Hoess c. summer 1941
(c) to Otto Bradfisch, Horst Bender and officers of Einsatzkommando 8 in Aug 1941
(d) to Otto Ohlendorf in Oct 1941
(e) to Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski c. Mar 1942
(f) in a written order from Himmler to Heydrich, seen by Eichmann and Dieter Wisliceny
(g) on 2 Oct 1942, in an order regarding Jewish workers in armaments plants in the Generalgouvernement
(h) to Felix Kersten in Nov 1942
(i) to a number of high-ranking German Army officers on 26 Jan 1944

and

(2) The statements by Reinhard Heydrich to the effect that Hitler had ordered the extermination of the Jews, made:
(a) to Adolf Eichmann in Aug 1941
(b) to Bruno Streckenbach in Sept 1941
(c) to Admiral Canaris and other Abwehr officers in May 1942?

This certainly raises interesting points.

There seems to have been “statements made” to certain officials.

Only two of the statements seem to have been in writing : (1)(f) and (g). Since (1)(f) is reported to have been “seen by Eichmann and Dieter Wisliceny”, one gathers that it is non-extant(?).

How about (1)(g)? Is this a “negation” order, i.e. an order (referring to an exception to Hitler’s extermination order) NOT to exterminate those Jewish workers, but spare them for work in armaments plants?

Were the named officials unaware of the Führer’s will to exterminate the Jews of Europe, until Himmler told them?

Or were they eagerly waiting for a confirmation of a daily murder routine and a

..."go ahead" conferring the Führer's blessing to exterminatory initiatives from many sides, a "you may" rather than a "you shall"..

that

…was given at a meeting between Hitler and high-ranking officials of the Nazi party on 12 December 1941

according to Roberto?

As Gerlach writes:

Many insisted on the murder of all European Jews, but before they could begin with it systematically, there was the need in the National Socialist system for a decision taken by Hitler.

Were the named officials among those “many” who “insisted”?

How did they know that Himmler/Heydrich weren’t lying?

Mr. Thompson wrote:

He did it like this: He gave a verbal order to Himmler to murder the Jews. We know Hitler did this because Himmler repeatedly referred to this fact while Hitler was still alive, and because Himmler thereafter did undertake a program of mass murder and Hitler certainly didn't punish him for it.

“…Himmler repeatedly referred to this fact..”, i.e., to Hitler’s order, on no less than 9 (nine)(?) occasions (see above), of which two (2) were in writing(see above), one of which is extant(?)((1)(g)?)

But unless Himmler/Heydrich had told them, they would never have known of such a “decision of principle” (Gerlach) from the Führer?

Mr. Thompson wrote:

At first, Himmler put Heydrich in charge of the job. Heydrich insisted on keeping good records. From his level on down, there is no shortage of every sort of evidence -- written orders, reports, plans and budgets, technical assistance, testimony of participants, bystanders and victims, forensic studies, etc. After Heydrich's assassination in 1942, his successors in the murder operation -- Kaltenbrunner and Pohl -- also kept good records.

Were those “good records” unequivocally referring to Hitler's decision to murder the Jews of Europe?

With “written orders, reports, plans and budgets, technical assistance” in abundance, and making any claim from the named officials above to be uninformed about a genocide policy a lie?

In April, 1942, Himmler issued an order concerning the "final solution of the Jewish problem" (Endlösung der Judenfrage). Only such Jews were to be left alive as were able to work, and these were to be concentrated in camps. This order was extended to all
countries under German occupation, and minister Goebbels expressed the hope that the extirpation (Ausrottung) would spread not only over the whole of Europe but even to countries outside "In Europa und vielleicht weit darüber hinaus..." (Article in Das Reich of June 14, 1942.)
With their characteristic efficiency the Germans began to realize their plan of destruction.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpol6.htm

Only Hitler had to resort to “euphemisms”.

Why?

witness · Post by **witness** » 06 Jun 2003 01:14

Simply because he didn't want to be seen as a complicit in the act of mass murder since he was the nation' leader and the head of State.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 06 Jun 2003 01:15

Gentlemen, the topic involves Hitler's knowledge of the holocaust, not Erik's mentality or character. Please stay on topic and avoid side comments and irrelevant images.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 06 Jun 2003 01:38

Erik -- You asked about the context of the statements of Himmler and Heydrich. Specifically, you asked: "Were the named officials unaware of the Führer’s will to exterminate the Jews of Europe, until Himmler told them?"

As I understand it, Himmler made the statement to Hoess, and Heydrich made the statement to Eichmann, in the context of explaining what Hoess's and Eichmann's duties would be to carry out the project. Neither Hoess nor Eichmann said that they were aware of the Führer’s will to exterminate the Jews of Europe, until Himmler told them.

Himmler's statements to Streckenbach, Bradfisch, Bender, Ohlendorf and von dem Bach were made in their response to their complaints about having to murder people.

Himmler's statements to Kersten were made in the context of a quasi-confession. Some historians have since questioned Kersten's credibility.

Himmler's statement to the Army officers was informative in nature.

The written order Wislisceny said he saw has never been found.

The written order of Himmler regarding Jewish workers in armaments plants in the Generalgouvernement spoke of them being "concentrated to capacity in a few Jewish camp-run industrial centers in the eastern parts of the Generalgouvernement . . . . However, one day the Jews there, in conformity with the Fuehrer's wish, are also to disappear."

Heydrich's statement to Streckenbach was in response to Streckenbach's complaints about having to murder people.

Heydrich's statement to Canaris and the Abwehr officers was in response to their accusations that Heydrich and the RSHA were responsible for the mass murders.

No one was "eagerly waiting for a confirmation of a daily murder routine."

Erik also asked, about the records kept by the RSHA and the WVHA on the murders: "Were those “good records” unequivocally referring to Hitler's decision to murder the Jews of Europe?"

No. Those "good records" unequivocally implemented or reported on the results of the decision to murder the Jews of Europe.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 07 Jun 2003 19:04

My question to Erik on Hitler and the murders in Poland 1939-1940 now is a separate thread, with that title, at:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=24138

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 07 Jun 2003 19:12

My question to Michael Mills on the statements of Himmler and Heydrich to the effect that Hitler had ordered the extermination of the Jews is now a separate thread:

"Himmler, Heydrich and the Fuehrer Order" at
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=24139