SHOAH

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 20 Mar 2002 16:15

++“Revisionists” usually have a rather twisted idea of which questions are relevant and which are not. Why, some of them make a big bloody fuss out of the perfectly unimportant issue whether or not the Treblinka gassing engine was a diesel engine.++

<<It's as relevant as whether witches really can ride on brooms and carry-on with the devil in medieval witchcraft trials, or NOT.>>

Apples and oranges. Smith is far from having demonstrated that a diesel engine for gassing would be the equivalent of a medieval broomstick. And even if he had, this would only mean that the gassing engine was actually a gasoline engine burning diesel fuel or gasoline. Big deal.

<<I guess the word of hysterical accusers is fine for some.>>

What “hysterical accusers”, Mr. Smith? If I well remember, Smith hasn’t yet shown us a single eyewitness account of the Treblinka killings where the gassing engine is described as a diesel engine, let alone one where this minor detail is given any importance.

++I consider it characteristic of the “Revisionist” approach that BS should have focused on the confused account of a confused fellow like Bomba. The sober matter-of-fact account of Suchomel, former member of the SS staff of Treblinka and defendant at the first West German Treblinka trial, the grand dragon conveniently avoided addressing.++

<<Well, why don't you ask Bradley Smith what he thought of this other Shoah character. Bradley Smith is well-known and you know his e-mail address from Codoh.>>

It might be fun to ask the punk, although I already know the answer: He avoided addressing Suchomel’s account because there was not much he could say against it and he didn’t want to make an all too obvious fool out of himself.

<<At issue is not that Bomba was a bit confused but that Lanzmann didn't give a fig whether the facts were bullshit or not as long as the morality play could be milked.>>

What Lanzmann did was to let his audience have the emotional account of an eyewitness with all its faults and phobias, a glimpse at a survivor's feelings. While I would rather rely on Suchomel than on Bomba for rational and accurate information, emotions were also part of the picture that Lanzmann was trying to convey. But I don’t expect a fanatical True Believer like Smith to understand that, of course.

<<Neither did gushing Zionist apologists like George Will.>>

I neither know nor care to know who George Will is, but I like the “gushing Zionist apologists”. The phrase has the ring of hatred, especially if you spell it out.

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Gushing with Hate...

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Mar 2002 00:01

Medorjurgen wrote:Apples and oranges. Smith is far from having demonstrated that a diesel engine for gassing would be the equivalent of a medieval broomstick. And even if he had, this would only mean that the gassing engine was actually a gasoline engine burning diesel fuel or gasoline. Big deal.


Yawn. And the accusers have not demonstrated their thesis that it could have worked as advertised. As far as the gasoline engine, if it really existed, it could have worked. A shovel could have worked as a club. But that doesn't mean that it WAS the murder weapon. Our best hope is a real study of forensic archaeology to see if the physical evidence is consistent with the hysterical (and hateful) claims. Not a sham study designed merely to silence Deniers of the Faith. "A dig? Oh yeah, we did that. All Bedknobs and Broomsticks TRUE. No details. No problem."

What “hysterical accusers”, Mr. Smith? If I well remember, Smith hasn’t yet shown us a single eyewitness account of the Treblinka killings where the gassing engine is described as a diesel engine, let alone one where this minor detail is given any importance.


Curious indeed. The vaunted Bundestablishment courts said the murder weapon was a diesel engine. Perhaps they made it up of wholecloth without any evidence, as the Soviets did in the Krasnodar/Kharkov show-trials during the war. Doesn't say much for the veracity of the Bundestablishment courts, at least not as far as findings of historical facts. Inconvenient little details. Nagging incongruities. Tiny bubbles lying in your beer...

(Snip. I'll let you discuss your differences with Bradley Smith with him.)

++At issue is not that Bomba was a bit confused but that Lanzmann didn't give a fig whether the facts were bullshit or not as long as the morality play could be milked.++

<<What Lanzmann did was to let his audience have the emotional account of an eyewitness with all its faults and phobias, a glimpse at a survivor's feelings. While I would rather rely on Suchomel than on Bomba for rational and accurate information, emotions were also part of the picture that Lanzmann was trying to convey. But I don’t expect a fanatical True Believer like Smith to understand that, of course.>>


Nice spin. But this is not just art. It is supposed to be history. And this Hate propaganda is peddled to schoolkids. When I was a boy we didn't get Shoah but we did get to see the U.S. Army Signal Corps footage of the disease in the camps at the end of the war. We were not told that such scenes are historically normal during sieges and warfare in general and were widespread in Europe and hardly unique to the Second World War. I didn't even know that that I had an ancestor who died in a prison camp or I might have been freaked-out by it. As it was it was no more real than the Vietnam war on TV. Greuelpropaganda is crass and hateful manipulation. And manipulation of the people should especially be a concern for democratic societies.

++Neither did gushing Zionist apologists like George Will.++

<<I neither know nor care to know who George Will is, but I like the “gushing Zionist apologists”. The phrase has the ring of hatred, especially if you spell it out.>>


You haven't missed anything. He is a major conservative hack columnist with the Washington Post. And yes, his gushing does have a ring of establishment HATE about it. He stands for lowered corporate taxes, higher military spending and global adventurism, God and country and Zionist napalm.

Whereas, I stand for curbing corporate power, striving for socioeconomic justice and technological progress, and a well-armed but very strict U.S. neutrality.

Have a good evening, Roberto.

Scott
:)

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George Will

Post by Globalization41 » 21 Mar 2002 07:24

George Will is a neo-conservative
revolutionary advocating (like the
Bolsheviks of 1917) globalization a.s.a.p.
But revolutionaries are not true
conservatives.

Globalization41

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Post by Roberto » 21 Mar 2002 11:53

++Apples and oranges. Smith is far from having demonstrated that a diesel engine for gassing would be the equivalent of a medieval broomstick. And even if he had, this would only mean that the gassing engine was actually a gasoline engine burning diesel fuel or gasoline. Big deal.++

<<Yawn. And the accusers have not demonstrated their thesis that it could have worked as advertised.>>

To the extent that the details of the murder weapon matter at all in the face of the conclusive documentary, physical and eyewitness evidence that a mass killing took place and who the killers were, knowledge that the killing was mostly done with exhaust fumes from a huge engine is more than enough for the purposes of criminal justice and historical research.

<<As far as the gasoline engine, if it really existed, it could have worked.>>

So could a diesel engine, except in Smith’s weird little mind. But that’s an old story.

<< A shovel could have worked as a club. But that doesn't mean that it WAS the murder weapon.>>

It means that it was either a shovel or a club, which is all we need to know. The main killing device was exhaust from a huge engine, which leaves only two possibilities: diesel or gasoline engine. If the former couldn’t have worked – which Smith is far from having demonstrated – then the obvious conclusion is that it was the latter and the witnesses or those who assessed their depositions got it wrong in regard to this minor detail. Big deal.

<<Our best hope is a real study of forensic archaeology to see if the physical evidence is consistent with the hysterical (and hateful) claims.>>

Such a study was done in 1945/46 by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland, and the few data we have from that investigation are already enough to corroborate the documentary and eyewitness evidence and too much for Smith to cope with. How many pits 50 meters long, 25 meters wide and 7.5 meters deep could be dug in a burial area of more than 20,000 square meters, Mr. Smith? How many whole bodies would fit into those pits? How many bodies reduced to ashes, bone fragments and other partial remains? Often asked but never answered questions. If the little we know about the investigation by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland is already beyond Smith’s argumentative capacities, I wonder what the poor fellow will do the day we have an archaeological investigation on the Treblinka site which gives us the same level of detail that emerged from the excavations at Belzec in 1997/98:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... enza_II.98

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... enza_VI.98

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... lusions.98

<<Not a sham study designed merely to silence Deniers of the Faith. "A dig? Oh yeah, we did that. All Bedknobs and Broomsticks TRUE. No details. No problem.">>

The only such sham study to silence Deniers of the Faith that I know of was done by a True Believer named Richard Krege, who ran around on the Treblinka site with a ground-penetrating radar and then claimed he had found no ground disturbances. This although, according to the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland:

"There are also other traces. For example, in the north-eastern part, over a surface covering about 2 ha. (5 acres),
there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues.

As a result of an examination made by an expert it was found that ashes were the remains of burnt human bones. The examination of numerous human skulls found in the camp has shown that they bear no traces of external injuries. Within a radius of several hundred yards from the camp site an unpleasant smell of burnt ash and decay is noticeable, growing stronger as one approaches."


Source of quote:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpoltreb1.htm

When the Central Commission got to the Treblinka site, as I have recently learned, it resembled a battlefield, with bones, whole ribcages and skulls littering the ground. The nasty thing is that the Germans did not leave it in that condition, but it was the result of a bizarre phenomenon known as "The Treblinka Gold Rush", which happened when the Ukranian the Germans had placed to guard the site fled before the advancing Red Army. At that time huge numbers of locals and others dug through the ground looking for "Jew-gold" – something Mr. Krege should have informed himself about before trying to sell the idea that his GPR had “showed no evidence of disturbance in the soil whatsoever”. But then, he who badly wants to find nothing is not likely to find anything, ain’t that so?

++What “hysterical accusers”, Mr. Smith? If I well remember, Smith hasn’t yet shown us a single eyewitness account of the Treblinka killings where the gassing engine is described as a diesel engine, let alone one where this minor detail is given any importance.++

<<Curious indeed. The vaunted Bundestablishment courts said the murder weapon was a diesel engine. Perhaps they made it up of wholecloth without any evidence, as the Soviets did in the Krasnodar/Kharkov show-trials during the war. Doesn't say much for the veracity of the Bundestablishment courts, at least not as far as findings of historical facts. Inconvenient little details. Nagging incongruities. Tiny bubbles lying in your beer...>>

Blah, blah, blah. Smith still has to explain to us what relevance the details of the gassing engine, which is perfunctorily mentioned once or twice in the judgment of the Düsseldorf County Court at the first Treblinka trial, are supposed to have had for the essential findings of fact that the trial was about – findings that would be just the same if the court had concluded on a gasoline engine or on “an engine from a huge motor vehicle the type of which could not be established”. If they concluded on a diesel engine, that was because either one or more of the witnesses described the engine as a diesel engine or because the witnesses spoke about an engine fueled with diesel and the court concluded from this that the engine was a diesel engine, which as we have seen is not necessarily so. If the court’s conclusion on the type of engine had necessarily been wrong – which for all his “technical arguments” Smith has so far failed to demonstrate – would this mistake in regard to an irrelevant minor detail mean that the court’s essential findings of fact cannot be relied upon? Only according to the “falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus” – wishful thinking of “Revisionist” True Believers, I would say.

--At issue is not that Bomba was a bit confused but that Lanzmann didn't give a fig whether the facts were bullshit or not as long as the morality play could be milked.--

++What Lanzmann did was to let his audience have the emotional account of an eyewitness with all its faults and phobias, a glimpse at a survivor's feelings. While I would rather rely on Suchomel than on Bomba for rational and accurate information, emotions were also part of the picture that Lanzmann was trying to convey. But I don’t expect a fanatical True Believer like Smith to understand that, of course.++

<<Nice spin. But this is not just art. It is supposed to be history.>>

It is history, if only oral history. The emotional accounts of a confused survivor are part of the picture just as the matter-of-fact descriptions of former SS man Suchomel, which the True Believers conveniently avoid to address.

<<And this Hate propaganda is peddled to schoolkids.>>

Education about a historical phenomenon is hate propaganda only to a sworn anti-Semite who sees himself as a poor Gentile persecuted by a mighty Jewish conspiracy, in my opinion.

<<When I was a boy we didn't get Shoah but we did get to see the U.S. Army Signal Corps footage of the disease in the camps at the end of the war. We were not told that such scenes are historically normal during sieges and warfare in general and were widespread in Europe and hardly unique to the Second World War.>>

Baloney. Scenes like those encountered at Belsen, Dachau and Buchenwald were indeed widespread in German camps for Soviet prisoners of war in 1941/42 who were deliberately starved to death, in the besieged city of Leningrad which the Führer wanted to wipe off the face of the earth and in urban areas of the occupied Soviet territories where the occupiers deliberately deprived the population of food within the scope of the so-called Hungerplan. But I would very much like Mr. Smith to show me a place in Western Europe or Germany where during World War II there were scenes of mass mortality due to starvation and disease similar to those witnessed at the concentration camps. The only country in Western Europe were there was starvation during World War II was the Netherlands, where about 10,000 people succumbed to malnourishment or disease in the winter of 1944/45. The British army found twice or thrice as many dead in Belsen alone, if I well remember.

<<I didn't even know that that I had an ancestor who died in a prison camp or I might have been freaked-out by it.>>

Smith conveniently forgets to mention that his ancestor died in a prison camp in the American Civil War, at a time when for every battle casualty there were two or three soldiers who died of disease in the encampments of their own armies – hardly comparable to the conditions under which World War II armies fought.

<<Greuelpropaganda is crass and hateful manipulation.>>

Indeed it is. But information and education about historical facts is not “Greuelpropaganda” – except of course to those who harbor an ideology to which such facts are inconvenient.

<<And manipulation of the people should especially be a concern for democratic societies.>>

Wow, all of a sudden Smith is extolling democratic values. And I thought he hated “Democracy-Capitalism”. Anyway, the only attempt at manipulation I see is comes from Smith and other “Revisionist” True Believers trying to convert suckers to their Faith.

--Neither did gushing Zionist apologists like George Will.--

++I neither know nor care to know who George Will is, but I like the “gushing Zionist apologists”. The phrase has the ring of hatred, especially if you spell it out.++

<<You haven't missed anything. He is a major conservative hack columnist with the Washington Post. And yes, his gushing does have a ring of establishment HATE about it. He stands for lowered corporate taxes, higher military spending and global adventurism, God and country and Zionist napalm.>>

Reverend Smith keeps pouring out his soul, accusing others of what he is full of. Quite enjoyable. Let’s have more of it, Reverend.

<<Whereas, I stand for curbing corporate power, striving for socioeconomic justice and technological progress, and a well-armed but very strict U.S. neutrality.>>

About as much as I stand for white supremacy, racism and anti-Semitism, I dare say. Hypocritical as ever, Reverend Smith tries to hide his hate speech agenda underneath nice words, unaware that with his apologetic True Believer rambling he has long lost all credibility.

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Post by Thorfinn » 21 Mar 2002 12:28

...Reverend Smith tries to hide his hate speech agenda...

Stop calling things "hate speech", just because you disagree with them. Scott Smith has not said that he hates anybody, and he has not tried to spread hatred of anybody. Someone could say that you are spreading "hate speech" for your constant attacks on the Third Reich, as it seems that you truly do hate them.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 21 Mar 2002 14:31

Thorfinn wrote:
...Reverend Smith tries to hide his hate speech agenda...

Stop calling things "hate speech", just because you disagree with them. Scott Smith has not said that he hates anybody, and he has not tried to spread hatred of anybody. Someone could say that you are spreading "hate speech" for your constant attacks on the Third Reich, as it seems that you truly do hate them.


Holocaust denial and apology of the National Socialist system is hate speech, buddy, because it defames victims of hate and supports an ideology of hate. As Dr. Richard Green aptly put it:

Whereas I am opposed to censorship and hate speech laws, I am not embarrassed to call Holocaust-denial hate speech. That is what it is. People who are smart enough to obfuscate using pseudoscientific arguments are also smart enough to know what they are doing: propagating a lie. Although some people may be attracted to Holocaust denial because of gullibility and/or mental illness, these people are not the same people who write these clever but mendacious pseudoscientific reports. The people who write these reports are motivated by a desire to rehabilitate Nazism, an ideology of hate. Hate-speech is what it is, and in calling it that I am merely exercising my right of free speech.


Richard J. Green, The Chemistry of Auschwitz
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/

Aversion to the Third Reich, on the other hand, does not call for irrational hatred. Elementary common sense and a healthy capacity for critical thinking not obstructed by ideology are more than enough to realize what the idols of Mr. Thorfinn and other True Believers were all about.

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DOUBLETHINK!

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Mar 2002 15:29

That's what Orwell called Doublethink, Roberto.
:wink: :wink:

CLICK! Image

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Post by Thorfinn » 21 Mar 2002 16:12

Holocaust denial and apology of the National Socialist system is hate speech, buddy, because it defames victims of hate and supports an ideology of hate.

Nobody intelligent would actually believe that. I like very much the Third Reich, so in your warped view, that makes me hate something or someman. I do not have hatred, yet ideological superiorists such as yourself like to call people names (like hateful) when they do not share your freakish views. You also like to call truth seekers "hateful", because they are in some way a denyer of the supposed holocaust of jewry. Who do the jew revisionists hate? Do they hate themselves, and their families, or are they just seeking "truth"? It is not "defaming victims" to deny what are lies. It is not "defaming victims" where there were not victims to begin with. It is only your opinion that NSDAP was an "ideology of hate". I see it as an ideology of love, justice, and advancement for the German people.


...Richard J. Green...

I think that the above metioned is a jew, so why would I be surprised at his stance?


What a hypocrite to say it is OK to spread actual hate of the Third Reich, but it is not OK to spread a liking of the Third Reich or a preference for Revisionism. Then, you warp everything by saying that my "like" equals hate, and your hate is a kind that is OK to spread. You are demented, and I would not call your statements "Doublethink". I would call them not thinking at all.

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Post by Roberto » 21 Mar 2002 18:41

I wrote:

Holocaust denial and apology of the National Socialist system is hate speech, buddy, because it defames victims of hate and supports an ideology of hate.


The True Believer replied:

Nobody intelligent would actually believe that. I like very much the Third Reich, so in your warped view, that makes me hate something or someman. I do not have hatred, yet ideological superiorists such as yourself like to call people names (like hateful) when they do not share your freakish views. You also like to call truth seekers "hateful", because they are in some way a denyer of the supposed holocaust of jewry. Who do the jew revisionists hate? Do they hate themselves, and their families, or are they just seeking "truth"? It is not "defaming victims" to deny what are lies. It is not "defaming victims" where there were not victims to begin with. It is only your opinion that NSDAP was an "ideology of hate". I see it as an ideology of love, justice, and advancement for the German people.


The reply is so obviously self-contradictory and self-incriminatory that it needs no comment. I’ll just let the audience enjoy it like it is, confident that some will laugh their heads off at so much fanaticism and stupidity.

I quoted Dr. Richard J. Green:

Whereas I am opposed to censorship and hate speech laws, I am not embarrassed to call Holocaust-denial hate speech. That is what it is. People who are smart enough to obfuscate using pseudoscientific arguments are also smart enough to know what they are doing: propagating a lie. Although some people may be attracted to Holocaust denial because of gullibility and/or mental illness, these people are not the same people who write these clever but mendacious pseudoscientific reports. The people who write these reports are motivated by a desire to rehabilitate Nazism, an ideology of hate. Hate-speech is what it is, and in calling it that I am merely exercising my right of free speech.


Thorfinn replied:

I think that the above metioned is a jew, so why would I be surprised at his stance?


The above says much more about Mr. Thorfinn than I possibly could. The greatest weakness of anti-Semitic Nazi apologists is that they can’t help being who they are. Thorfinn is a classic example.

Last but not least, our True Believer wrote the following:

What a hypocrite to say it is OK to spread actual hate of the Third Reich, but it is not OK to spread a liking of the Third Reich or a preference for Revisionism. Then, you warp everything by saying that my "like" equals hate, and your hate is a kind that is OK to spread. You are demented, and I would not call your statements "Doublethink". I would call them not thinking at all.


I’ll ignore the insults and recommend our True Believer to think a little bit, to the extent that ideological fanaticism allows him to think at all, why abominating National Socialism is a reasonable attitude whereas cherishing it is not. Could the reason be that National Socialism was an ideology of intolerance and hatred, one that called for the physical removal of certain population segments representing millions of people from the body popular for the future glory and purity of a nation of Spartan-like slave masters?

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Thorfinn comments concerning Medorjurgen

Post by Angelo » 21 Mar 2002 18:55

Medorjurgen wrote:
Holocaust denial and apology of the National Socialist system is hate speech, buddy, because it defames victims of hate and supports an ideology of hate.


Thorfinn answered:
Nobody intelligent would actually believe that. I like very much the Third Reich, so in your warped view, that makes me hate something or someman.


Like it or not, Thorfinn, I'm one of those intelligent people who don't need believing something that is SELF EXPLANATORY. Personally, I believe it takes more than that to be intelligent, but with statements such as yours, it's more than sufficient because, evidently, you don't even REALIZE what's under the eyes of the whole world, including yours: that is National Socialism was filled up with HATRED even though NOT all N-Socialists did share such hatred.
That you like very much the Third Reich isn't a problem at all for me, if you don't mind I too have subjects I like that belonged to that German stage of their millenary history: a few examples ?
I liked the care they took to give their people a better life, an opportunity to work, the availability of public resorts for almost all families where they could spend a few days of vacationing, whether poor or rich, (even though the richer ones didn't usually mix up with the plebeian masses crowding those locations); I liked their skills in manufacturing all kinds of mechanical products (from cars to planes and from trucks to tanks -- yes, you read it right, I said TANKS and not just the reservoirs or boilers for restaurants, but those tracked veicles sporting a gun, one or more machine-guns, eventually a few smoke dspensers and in some cases, even a flame-thrower-- No problem, at all!)
I loved the usual seriousness that went along with all these and other achievments I don't feel I should mention, that is the historical German vocation for precision, punctuality and orderly proceeding in doing all that should be done. I love their artistry in all fields, from music to paintings, from poetry to drama... But all of the above has nothing to do with that HATRED which N-Socialism decided, since the very first days, to use as a substantial part in the accomplishments of its clearly laid down plans for the conquest and total domination of Europe.
Thorfinn, if I start considering you a SUB-HUMAN, pretending this results from scientific and historical observation, I have ALREADY spread my seed of HATES against you. I could even treat you formally in a civil or polite manner (which they didn't) but the HATE is there all the same, no matter if I smile, or weep, curse or bless. You got that ?
When I start considering you as a SPURIOUS, NON-HUMAN, but DEVILISH element that's guilty of all the wrongs my country has gone through since its natural birth, the HATE is there, no need to call for it, IT'S JUST THERE.
Got it?
When day by day, in the streets and squares, in the schools, in the working facilities, off the radio, within the barracks and the churches (yes, I said even the CHURCHES!) I keep dipicting you as a SHAME for my country and society, a SHAME that must be radically dealt with till it DISAPPEARS, not just from Germany, but from the earth, the HATE is there! And it's working too. Hate, just as love, never stays idle. It either diminishes or it increases and that's just natural.
When I organize things in such a way that you are deprived of your home, your job, your ability to do all the things any human being is normally allowed to do on the basis of your belonging to a given RACE, a given political FACTION, a given religious BELIEF, a given social CASTE, the HATE is there and it's torturing.
When I keep on segregating you and in the process, humiliating, mistreating, beating and enslaving you before, FINALLY getting to materially KILL you, the HATE is there and it's DEADLY.

THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED! We may discuss about its extent, the geographic areas where such things took place, the methods used and who (specifically) did it, but that HATRED was there and will keep on being here and around as long as people answer in a total illogical manner as you did in this case.

I hope this will help you think it over seriously and you'll see for yourself that the N-Socialist ideology was a concentrated of HATRED even though in the Third Reich there were people and things worth of being held in esteem and appreciation.
On the other hand, if I put on one side all that had been done worth of appreciation and even 1 single life (we know it's in the order of millions, though) purposedly sacrificed, and unjustly so for the various reasons I told you before, well, I wouldn't hesitate a second to say that all the gold in the world is not worth a single innocent victim.

You talk about superiority?! If you knew what you're talking about you'd be aware that the best examples of the "superior being" phylosophy are just those Nazis who disseminated hatred in the hearts of their people to reach the goals we all know too well. Trying to defend a the truth from being camouflaged or obliterated has nothing to do with that. And I guess you know it too.

Angelo

Just a little example of HATE dissemination:

p. 4) Speech by Julius Streicher, September 5 1937, reported in the Fraenkische Tageszeitung:

The Jew no longer shows himself among us openly as he used to. But it would be wrong to say that victory is ours. Full and final victory will have been achieved only when the whole world has been rid of the Jews.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(p. 7) Leading article by Streicher from "Der Stürmer" No. 39, September 1936:

The continued work of the "Stürmer" will help to ensure that every German down to the last man will, with heart and hand, join the ranks of those whose aim is to crush the head of the serpent Pan-Juda beneath their heels. He who helps to bring this about helps to eliminate the devil. And this devil is the Jew.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(p. 11) Streicher's speech in Nuernberg, April 3 1925, taken from "Kampf dem Weltfeind", p. 42:

Let us make a new beginning today so that we can annihilate the Jew.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(p. 12) Deutche Volksgesundheit aus Blut und Boden, New Year's issue 1935:

One single cohabitation of a Jew with an Aryan woman is sufficient to poison her blood forever. Together with the alien albumen she has absorbed the alien soul. Never again will she be able to bear purely Aryan children, even when married to an Aryan. They will all be bastards, with a dual soul and the body of a mixed breed.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(p. 19) Article signed by Streicher in "Der Stürmer", No, 12, March 19 1942, pages 1 and 2:

There were two ways which might have led to a liberation of Europe from the Jews: Expulsion or extermination! Both methods have been tried in the course of the centuries, but they were never carried to a conclusion....

The teaching of Christianity has stood in the way of a radical solution of the Jewish problem in Europe...

Fate has decreed that it was finally left to the 20th century to see the total solution of the Jewish problem. Just how this solution will be achieved has been made known to the European nations and to entire non-Jewish humanity in a proclamation read out by the Führer of the German people on the 24th February 1942:

Today the ideas of our Nationalsocialists and those of the Fascist revolution have conquered large and mighty nations and my prophecy will find its fulfillment, that in this war not the Aryan race will be destroyed, but the Jew will be exterminated. What ever else this struggle may lead to, or however long it may endure, this will be the final result.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(p. 29) Report of Streicher's address to 2,000 children at Nuernberg, Christmas 1936, from Fraenkische Tegeszeitung, 22nd December 1936:

Two thousand children rejoiced with Julius Streicher....

The Gauleiter [Streicher] told the little ones about the terrible times after the war, when the Devil dominated mankind. "Do you know who the Devil is," he asked his breathlessly listening audience. "The Jew, the Jew," resounded from a thousand children's voices.


Source for the above quoted texts:

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Post by Thorfinn » 21 Mar 2002 21:36

The main thing that the brainwashed will never understand about the Third Reich is that NSDAP was NOT evil. If I believed everything that I was told, I would think the same way that you do. If I believed what is often tought to be true, I would think that my grandparents were evil for supporting the Third Reich in Germany and Norway. If I was as brainwashed as some Germans, I would think that the extreme punishment put on my family was deserved. How many people say that NSDAP was evil without even learning about it from their grandparents that were members or supporters? I take it as an insult when people call the Third Reich or NSDAP "evil".

I do not think that it is hateful to observe that somebody is "subhuman", or "devilish". I feel those words may be considered insulting terms now, but the basis of the accusations are in fact. It is not hateful to say the truth, even if it makes a particular person look, or feel bad. You need to realize that this was not the basis of the Third Reich or NSDAP. They were based on advancing German principals, and as a result of this, they had to deal with their enemies; enemies that were seeking to destroy or hinder Germany, and the German people. The jews brought their suffering upon themselves. If they had acted civil to the Germans, there would still be millions of them living side by side with us in Europe today. It is not hate to be at war with an ememy, and an enemy is what the jews were to Germany. The camps were needed, and for your information, I have never heard any accounts from my family of the jews being killed in the camps. It was to the contrary. The jews got to play football against the guards. They got to listen to Wagnerian opera in the so called "death camps".

The Germans wanted to move the jews out of the German Lands, but this is not hate. It would have been hate to kill all of the jews, but they did not do this. If the most effecient race on the planet wanted to dispose of jews that were sitting in camps, there would be none left. The jews were hurting Germany with their ways, and they even declared war on Germany. There was no way for this alien element to remain in Gremany without major problems arising. If the jews acted like Germans, they would not have brought actions against themselves. They acted like jews first, and Germans a distant second. This is a fact. Most jews put their loyalty to the advancement of jews, at the expense of others. As a whole, they did not put their loyalty to the Fatherland, and the ones that did were treated much better than the ones that did not. Look at Milch for instance. Look at everyman on this link; http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righitpix.html.

It is also not hateful to protect German blood, although extreme leftists would have peole think otherwise. Every society has to set the moral values that they feel are correct, and at least the Third Reich had moral values, unlike most Germanic people today. If you let your blood die out, you let your people die out. It was a love of one's own people that led to German race laws, and it was NOT hate for others. I think that jews have race laws, even today, but people like you will likely never call them evil.

You think that NSDAP and the Third Reich were "evil" because you think that they caused many deaths. They are not the ones who caused most deaths. If it was not for the Evil Empire of England, there would have been millions less deaths. If it was not for international jewry declaring war on Germany and bringing America into the war, there would have been millions less deaths. The Allies are the ones that purposely bombed civilians, and Hitler tried to prevent civilian casualty infliction upon his enemies, even when it set back the German goals. Why don't you call the Allies "evil"?

Julius Streicher did say some insulting things about jews, but nearly all of them were based in truth. Are you as sick as "medorjurgen" to say that Streicher deserved to die for being a school teacher that published a paper that said bad things about jews? Streicher was not a member of government, and he did not commit any crimes. He was an innocent man that paid for his beliefs with his life. That was true "evil".

My family that supported NSDAP and the Third Reich did not hate people. They wanted a better world, and they were punished for it. They were punished for being patriots, and I am even affected by what the Allies did to them. Why don't you talk to your grandparents, or any former NSDAPer before you say that NSDAP was evil. I have never met one member that was; not in my family, nor their freinds. I will never insult my grandparents or the elders of Germany, and I will not use the word "hate" against the German Government that stood for Germany when the world was against us. In the end, only Gott can make a judgement, and individuals that did wrong will be punished.

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