Ehrenburg

[michael mills]

The question I would ask is whether there is any proof of the statement attributed to Erenburg having been fabricated by the German propaganda machine.

Did any German official put his hand up after the war and confess to having composed the bloodthirsty words atttributed to Erenburg? Have any origina German documents been found showing how those words were composed?

The mere fact that someone says that he could not find any original Soviet document containing the words attributed to Erenburg is not proof that Erenburg never uttered them.

Once Stalin stamped down on Erenburg in April 1945, evidence of the sort of propaganda he had distributed became rather embarrassing, and it would be easy enough to efface.

One line of enquiry that could be followed is to ask surviving Soviet veterans whether they ever heard or read the words attributed to Erenburg. However, the number of such surviving veterans is probably very small now, and those that are still living might not want to reveal embarrassing truths, if such truths exist. A particularly anti-Soviet veteran might be prepared to say something nasty about Erenburg, but would he be a credible witness? Hard to say.

[michael mills]

Look at page 269 of this book:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=2T5 ... q=&f=false

Biddiscombe, Perry
Werwolf!: The History of the National
Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946
Toronto: University of Toronto Press
455 pp., $39.95, ISBN 0-8020-0862-3
Publication Date: September 1998

The author of this book mentions the words attributed to Erenburg on page 269 of his book, which can be accessed on the Google review linked above.

Since this is a work published by a university press, both Toronto University and the University of Wales, it is reasonable to assume that it has gone through some sort of peer review. Presumably the academic publishers of the book believed that the words attributed to Erenburg were genuine.

Accordingly, I prefer to give more credence to a book published by a university press than to claims made by unknown persons posting on a website. Of coure the view of Beevor must also be taken into account, but the bottom line is that there appears to be some disagreement among historians as to the historicity of the words attributed to Erenburg. While it has not been conclusively proved that he spoke or wrote them, it is likelwise not proved that the quote attributed to him is a German fabrication.

[Oleg Grigoryev]

The question I would ask is whether there is any proof of the statement attributed to Erenburg having been fabricated by the German propaganda machine.

yes of course you would – this in turn would allow you to change the subject and escape the question that actually was asked altogether. The question by the way was in regard to your quote

One documented example of such official incitement is provided by the propaganda material issued to Red Army soldiers by Erenburg early in 1945, which explicitly encouraged those soldiers to "degrade" German women in order to break their "racial pride". That propaganda material was disseminated on a wide scale, to hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers, in the form of leaflets and radio broadcasts.

The key word here, of course, is “documented” - that implies, that there are source that can support this fact ( that would be for instance a leaflet -that ,according to you again, was given out to hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers) with some solid proof. The fact that, instead of presenting the leaflet or transcript of a broadcast, you decided to indulge into straw men tactics tells me that it is not all that well documented . The fact, that you have to run around to look for the proof, instead of having it readily available (after all it was you who brought Ehrenburg into the discussion that dealt with sex assaults committed by Germans ) tells me that, you never bothered to look for the proof in the first palce. You second post quite frankly adds nothing to the discussion -it just throws in the mix of supposition and believes. The discussion on hands is not theological but historical. If you don’t have any proof that this was well documented (or in any way documented at all for that matter) occurrence then don’t say that it is so.

PS I could not get past page 75 via link you gave. I'll hazard a guess by saying that you could not verify the proof either, since otherwise you would say if it footnoted or if the source is stated in the appendix.

[Kanadon]

The question I would ask is whether there is any proof of the statement attributed to Erenburg having been fabricated by the German propaganda machine.

Guilty until proven innocent... This is so ridiculous. Also you haven't even provided a SINGLE quotation of him, not in German, not in Russian, not in English. I gave you one from Donitz (a fabricated translation of his article "Kill!"), and I gave a website that compares fabricated quotes with the originals (http://labas.livejournal.com/706510.html).

This is called libel. It's up to YOU to prove that he actually said it.

[bf109 emil]

Oleg and Kanadon here is a clip i took from Beevers article a few posts earlier regarding Ehrenburg

Ilya Ehrenburg's own mesmerizing calls for revenge on Germany in his articles in the Red Army newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda (Red Star)

Now I am not privy to these documents, but is there an archive or source listing these Old Red Army Newspapers and stories for historical purposes? on a side note i also realize numerous army newsprint where done along propaganda lines, such as Der Sturmer (forgive the spelling), but also if the indeed article was published and circulated, the question as to whether this was read or saw by Soviet soldiers, in the thousands if not hundreds of thousands might be answered and put to rest?

Just an idea, as I have various copies of Der Adler, a Luftwaffe newspaper sent to German troops, maybe someone has copies of the Red Star likewise? I know it isn't a source or document, but might be an avenue in which to look for the said material or order/article, etc.

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Oleg and Kanadon here is a clip i took from Beevers article a few posts earlier regarding Ehrenburg

Ilya Ehrenburg's own mesmerizing calls for revenge on Germany in his articles in the Red Army newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda (Red Star)

Now I am not privy to these documents, but is there an archive or source listing these Old Red Army Newspapers and stories for historical purposes? on a side note i also realize numerous army newsprint where done along propaganda lines, such as Der Sturmer (forgive the spelling), but also if the indeed article was published and circulated, the question as to whether this was read or saw by Soviet soldiers, in the thousands if not hundreds of thousands might be answered and put to rest?

Just an idea, as I have various copies of Der Adler, a Luftwaffe newspaper sent to German troops, maybe someone has copies of the Red Star likewise? I know it isn't a source or document, but might be an avenue in which to look for the said material or order/article, etc.

Sure - in Russian. He also wrote for Pravda and Izvestia. Additionally not so long ago (2006 I think) the book came out that contained some of his work that did not get published. The point I was and still is making that after going through all these (all I could find anyway) I did not find any statements that even vaguely resembled call to rape. Revenge was the main theme - sure and he specifically stated that Germans, except for the little kids could not be trusted, but I have never read anything that can be construed as call for violence against civilian population. I find the whole thing very suspicious. First of all – the timeline when the call was supposedly made is very imprecise. The assumption (hate to do this btw) can be made that it was issued somewhere in between the Vistula –Oder offensive and the “comrade Ereneburg oversimplifies”. We can probably narrow it down by pinpointing the time when German propaganda started referring to the quote – but it seems nobody has done that either. Secondly never ever I’ve seen the entire text of that article/leaflet – only this quote keeps popping up (or references to that quote).If mr Mills assertion is true and this article was distributed to the Soviet troops entering Germany we are talking about huge number of individual articles, to say nothing about secondary references, reprints in local army newspapers (“boevoy lsitok”) etc –etc -that can be millions and none survived ??? Thirdly the entire quote sounds very un-Erenburg and un-Russian linguistic wise . Concept of racial pride is something seems to be very anti-Bolshevik and “gallant soldiers” construct when translated into Russian sounds very clumsy.

[bf109 emil]

Oleg Grigoryev

Thank you for explaining this and i too can see how if said statement was made how none have surfaced or held as true proof?

[Kanadon]

the question as to whether this was read or saw by Soviet soldiers, in the thousands if not hundreds of thousands might be answered and put to rest?

Here is a quote from the memoirs of an officer of a penal batallion, Alexander Pylcin ("Penal Strike"):

Overwhelming hate toward SS men, aryans and anything German was taking us over. It's not right, today I understand, but hate toward enemies was firmly in our conscience. Phrases like "you can't beat the enemy if you don't learn to hate him with all your soul" or "if the enemy doesn't surrender, he is destroyed" were remembered. So we learned to hate, strived to destroy. Posters, newspapers, movies and slashing publications of Ilya Ehrenburg and other famous writers called for: "Kill the German!". We understood that we have to kill those, who came to our homeland with fire and sword, but in contradiction to logic our hate spread on every German, on everything German, all that is enemy's. Even German belts with buckles that said "Got mit uns" ("God is with us") were not taken by our soldiers.

There are lots of references of Ehrenburg among Soviet memoirs, and I have yet to see a bad opinion about him.

Additionally not so long ago (2006 I think) the book came out that contained some of his work that did not get published.

This one?
Война. (Очерки 1941–1945)

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Upon looking into Beevor source notes it seems that timeline proposed by me must be corrected - Erneburg wrote his reply to accusations on November 25th 1944 -hence the calls attributed to him had to be made before that. On the other hand German reference (I cannot decipher what it refers to but it is clear that is German) is dated by January 16 (1945 - I guess). That does not help a whole lot but maybe someone who is familiar with German short key can tell us what is that document.

PS. BA-B is short for Bundesarchiv, Berlin

[Oleg Grigoryev]

This one?
Война. (Очерки 1941–1945)

Yep.

[michael mills]

So it seems that the words attributed to Erenburg were quoted by the respected historian Alfred de Zayas in one of his books. On that basis, it seems reasonable to me to accept that Erenburg possibly did say those those words, unless it can be proved conclusively that they were a German falsification.

Russian historiography, both Soviet and post-Soviet, has a long history of denial, of falsification and suppression of the truth. That tendency has been aided by the fact that ever since the end of the Second World War, for the last 64 years, the rulers of Russia, whether they be grim-faced apparatchiks in heavy coats and fedoras or simpering homosexuals showing off their aging bodies in public, have been able to control access to information about what they and their agents said and did during that war, The partial relaxation of access during the 1990s does not alter that fact. Ergo, the mere fact that a particular item of information, for example something that Erenburg is alleged to have said or written, cannot be found is not proof that it does not exist.

By contrast, the vast store of information held by National Socialist Germany, whether in documents or in the minds of its servants, became available to its enemies in 1945, immediately upon its defeat. All its secrets were laid bare. Thus, if there had been a falsification of Erenburg's words by, say, someone in Goebbels' ministry, we can be reasonably confident that that falsification would have been exposed long ago; either the original document in which the falsified quote was composed would have surfaced, or an official in Goebbels' ministry would have told the story during interrogation, or else someone would have blabbed about it in his memoirs.

In any case, it is clear that Erenburg did preach hatred and contempt for German women in statements that are definitely genuine, referring to them as "witches" (ved'my) and "hyenas" (gieny). He also presented them as sexual objects, as "blond witches". His calls for revenge on all Germans, men and women, combined with his imagery of German women as sexual objects, certainly can be seen as an incitement to use German women sexually as a form of revenge.

As for "breaking racial pride", I see no reason why Communist ideology would have prevented Erenburg or any other Soviet propagandist from using that image. The concept of the German as "racially arrogant", as believing himself to be racially superior, the member of a "master race", was a staple of Soviet wartime propaganda. The men of the Red Army were urged to prove that the Germans were not a "master race".

Erenburg was a particularly vile character, and he would have had no qualms about inciting to sexual violence. For example, he was a member of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, but he was the only one not to be purged in 1948. How is it that he survived whereas his fellow members of the Committee were shot in 1952? Anyone who knew the answer is long dead, but it is most likely that he betrayed his fellow Jews. Given what he was prepared to do to his fellow Jews to save his own skin, there is nothing he would not have been prepared to do to the Germans, whom he saw as the enemies of his race.

[Oleg Grigoryev]

So, if we strip the above post from all the colorful details and adjectives and distill it, (I by the way love how you separate historians into “philosemitic” and “leftists” “Stalin’s apologist” and “respected”.) it would come to the following :” I, michael mills, do not have any proof - documented or otherwise, that Ilya Erenburg said the quote that I have attributed to him - I would like to believe that he said it – I really do, but I can show nothing for it , except for above mentioned quote that was reprinted in various books, that in turn cannot also point to the original source of the quote. Because if they did I would wave it around – but I can’t”. Insofar as “blond witch” and what else have is concerned it was dealt with here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&start=30
If I may suggest so do not immerse yourself into discussion about the language with native speakers of it.

[Oleg Grigoryev]

PS. mr Mills - in regard to "respected historians" etc - I am sure that person who as well read as you are aware of argumentum ad verecundiam.

[David Thompson]

Michael -- You wrote:

Erenburg was a particularly vile character, and he would have had no qualms about inciting to sexual violence. For example, he was a member of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, but he was the only one not to be purged in 1948. How is it that he survived whereas his fellow members of the Committee were shot in 1952? Anyone who knew the answer is long dead, but it is most likely that he betrayed his fellow Jews. Given what he was prepared to do to his fellow Jews to save his own skin, there is nothing he would not have been prepared to do to the Germans, whom he saw as the enemies of his race.

This kind of speculation, without sourced proof, is of very little interest to anyone here. Please start sourcing your claims (I've warned you repeatedly about this), and avoid this sort of fanciful digression until you can document it.

Oleg wrote:

PS. mr Mills - in regard to "respected historians" etc - I am sure that person who as well read as you are aware of argumentum ad verecundiam(Ipse Dixit).

For interested readers:

argumentum ad verecundiam (ipse dixit).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

[bf109 emil]

Michael you wrote or asked'

Erenburg was a particularly vile character, and he would have had no qualms about inciting to sexual violence

but did he and is there proof of his writing or inciting this...There are numerous VILE characters during WW2, many German, but saying and doing are 2 different things, and sourcing is another...I'm still trying to see if his actual printing of this was published in the RED STAR, but so far to no avail

As for "breaking racial pride", I see no reason why Communist ideology would have prevented Erenburg or any other Soviet propagandist from using that image

again no proof just speculation or unsourced conclusions

His calls for revenge on all Germans, men and women, combined with his imagery of German women as sexual objects, certainly can be seen as an incitement to use German women sexually as a form of revenge.

speculation and no sourced proof

Michael, I'm neither defending Ehrenburg, nor doubting what you say, but without proof or sources to back your hypothesis, there is no leg to stand on for me to conclude your findings other then speculation or theories contrary to what this form wants or asks in it's guidelines....

Do i think Russian troops raped? IMHO sure i do, Do I think they had read or been given the OKAY,? sure I do..but these are my own thoughts with so far no backing of definite orders or sourced documented proof of these occuring...till then I have to refrain from a positive conclusion until said documents can prove otherwise...either by yourself or another or if i stumble upon i will post