Ehrenburg

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Post Reply
michael mills
Member
Posts: 9002
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Ehrenburg

#31

Post by michael mills » 10 Aug 2009, 02:56

This kind of speculation, without sourced proof, is of very little interest to anyone here. Please start sourcing your claims (I've warned you repeatedly about this), and avoid this sort of fanciful digression until you can document it.
What do you see as "speculation"? That Erenburg was a member of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee? That he survived when all the other members of that committee were purged in 1948 and shot in 1952?

That anyone who knows why he survived is long dead?

That he sold out the other members of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, his fellow Jews? That is speculation, but is a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence.

If you specify what it is that you consider speculation without proof, I will back it up.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Ehrenburg

#32

Post by David Thompson » 10 Aug 2009, 02:57

Michael - You asked:
What do you see as "speculation"?
The quoted portion of your post. And please back up your claims as a matter of course, rather than as an exception to the forum and section rules.


User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Ehrenburg

#33

Post by bf109 emil » 10 Aug 2009, 03:15

Michael you asked
What do you see as "speculation"? That Erenburg was a member of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee? That he survived when all the other members of that committee were purged in 1948 and shot in 1952?
maybe how you derived this conclusion
How is it that he survived whereas his fellow members of the Committee were shot in 1952? Anyone who knew the answer is long dead, but it is most likely that he betrayed his fellow Jews. Given what he was prepared to do to his fellow Jews to save his own skin,
are the minutes of the trial and accounts of others killed in the purge available? Do we know how or what exonerated Ehrenburg? IMHO If we are to use these conclusions without proof we'd open a whole can of worms how Doernitz sold out his fellow Germans or Speer, etc. as to there not swinging from the gallows as other German did or how Kesselring or Rundstadt back stabbed other military leaders in order to not save there own necks...but this conclusion along with speculation as to why Ehrenburg wasn't killed in the purge still isn't known...or sourced yet

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9002
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Ehrenburg

#34

Post by michael mills » 10 Aug 2009, 03:53

Here is a post I wrote on 15 July 2005:
The periodical in which Erenburg's articles appeared in English was "Soviet War News". Since it was published in Britain, I hardly think it was edited by Goebbels.

An example of Erenburg's incitement against German women appeared in English in the Soviet War News of 7 December 1944.

German women arouse only feelings of abhorrence in us. We despise them because they are the mothers, wives and sisters of butchers. We despise them because they wrote to their sons, husbands and brothers, 'Send us a beautiful fur coat'. We despise them because they are thieves and temptresses. We need none of these flaxen-haired hyenas. We are coming to Germany for something else - for Germany. And these particular flaxen-haired witches will not easily escape us.
The terms in which Erenburg describes German women ("temptresses", "witches") suggest a strong element of misogyny and perhaps sexual perversion in Erenburg's personal psychological make-up.

The use of physical descriptions such as "flaxen-haired" shows that Erenburg was thinking in racial terms, rather in terms of social class.

Furthermore, Erenburg was not expressing hatred of German women for something they had done, but primarily because they were the relatives of German soldiers. That is indicative of the fact that Erenburg was holding the German people collectively guilty for whatever crimes had been committed by only a part of the nation.

Finally, the words "will not easily escape us" could be construed as an incitement to violence against German women. What is it that Erenburg thought German women could not escape?

It may well be that Erenburg was expressing his own personal feelings rather than Soviet policy. It may be that he was using his role as chief propagandist, which had been assigned to him by Shcherbakov, as an outlet for some personal sadistic tendency.

It may that as a Jew (but not one with a strong Jewish identity) he desired retribution for the atrocities committed against his fellow Jews.

But it is certain that Stalin allowed Erenburg to continue pouring out his message of hatred and revenge combined with a hypocritical disclaimer of any desire for vengeance, every day for almost four years. That shows that the expression of Erenburg's personal feelings served Stalin's purpose.

When Stalin no longer needed that message, he stopped Erenburg producing it.
I presume that this article was a translation of something originally published by Erenburg in Russian. This English-language version may contain mistranslations, but if so they were not falsifications by German propagandists, but by Soviet translators.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9002
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Ehrenburg

#35

Post by michael mills » 10 Aug 2009, 04:04

Here is another post written by me on 15 July 2005:
Another example of Erenburg's excessively violent propagandising, written on 12 October 1941. This is from his book "Russia at War", p.220f, as quoted in the book by Dr Joachim Hoffmann.

They are perverts, sodomites, addicted to all forms of bestiality.......They grab Russian girls and drag them into brothels.......They hang priests....They wear belts with the motto 'God With Us', but beat dying prisoners in the face with their belts........Culture to them means fountain pens and safety razors. They use the fountain pens to jot down how many girls they have raped; they shave with safety razors, then use straight razors to cut off the noses, ears and breasts of their victims.
The above shows a high degree of "lurid embellishment". There were many atrocities comitted in occupied Soviet territory by German forces that Erenburg could draw on as a basis for his propaganda.

But he is using the propagandist's devices of generalisation from a number of true incidents and exaggeration.

He is also inserting a sexual element when he accuses German soldiers of being "perverts" and "sodomites". That may be a personal projection of his own psychological make-up, or it could be an element prescribed to him by his employers.

It should be noted that when the feared head of the NKVD, Ezhov, was purged at the end of 1938, one of the accusations that was made against him was that of "sodomy", ie homosexual practices. Given the sexually repressive nature of Soviet society, it is no wonder that such accusations were used against Stalin's enemies, whether internal such as the victims of purges or external, such as the German invaders.

Erenburg's accusation that the German soldiers were rapists mirrors the same accusation later flung at Soviet soldiers. Erenburg was certainly the equal of Goebbels when it came to atrocity propaganda.

Another example from his diatribe "Wolves They Were, Wolves They Remain", published in Soviet news Weekly, 15 March 1945, giving his account of a two-week visit he made to occupied east Prussia.

The [German] girls gaze at the passing Red Army men ingratiatingly, lecherously, as if they were cabaret waitresses instead of burghers' daughters.
Here Erenburg is implying that German women are whores, ready to jump into bed with lusty Red Army men. The clear message is that Red Army men are not raping innocent German women, they are just giving the randy German bitches what they want.

The likelihood is that Erenburg was distorting reality at this point. We can be reasonably confident that most German women left in East Prussia early in 1945 were hiding themselves away, trying to avoid being noticed. It is also possible that Erenburg is projecting his own sexual fantasies.

Another excerpt from Soviet War News of 19 October 1944, as quoted by Hoffmann.

They [released foreign workers] are not concerned with what happens to the Germans, whether we should teach morals to what remains of them or feed them oatmeal broth. No. This young Europe has long known that the best Germans are the dead Germans......The problem that the Russians and Poles are presumably attempting to solve is whther it is better to kill the Germans with axes or clubs. They are not interested in reforming the inhabitants......They are only interested in reducing their numbers.
Erenburg added: "And it is my modest opinion that the Russians and Poles.....are right".

An excerpt about Erenburg from Dr Hoffmann's book:

Pages 159-60:
It is not true that Ehrenburg's articles, some of which were translated into the English language, were received with approval everywhere in great Britain and the USA. in 1945, for example, a well-known New York magazine called for a protest against the "cruelty of Soviet writers such as Alexei Tolstoy and Ilya Ehrenburg". On October 26 and November 23, 1944, Ehrenburg was publicly compelled to reply to a lady Gibb, who had written to him as follows:

You call forth a very, very old evil in the hearts of the Russian people, ie the desire for revenge after victory has been won. This old, old evil......brings the victor no blessings.......We are very anxious to see you place your great talents in the service of Russia on behalf of a just and lasting peace, which can never be based on self-righteousness and the lust for revenge.
Soviet propaganda, which at this time was already quite busy defending enormous Soviet territorial acquisitions, began to put massive pressure upon Lady Gibb in an attempt to nip any impulse of jutice nad humanity in the bud. Ehrenburg answered in the hate-filled tones of an "un-human", quoting from the alleged letter of a lieutenant Zinchenko, who was said to have written in shock: "My mother is religious too, and in the name of religion she asks 'kill the Germans with my blessings' ". "One must not pity a wild beast", said Ehrenburg, "rather, one must destroy it........that is the opinion of our people, dear Lady"
.

Just a comment on the use of the term "un-human" applied to Ehrenburg in the above excerpt. The book by Hoffmann that I am quoting from is a translation from the original German, and contains a number of clumsy renderings, such as this one.

I assume that the original German word being translated here is "Unmensch", which does not denote someone who is literally not human, but someone who is cruel and inhumane, who does not live up to the standards of humanity.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Ehrenburg

#36

Post by David Thompson » 10 Aug 2009, 04:09

Michael -- We expect the posters to provide sourced information when they post the claim. Our numerous readers have better things to do than go on a scavenger hunt through your past posts to find a source, when you could readily provide it. The burden of sourcing your posts is on you. Please try to bear up under it:
Our readers are intelligent people, who have already taken the time to inform themselves on the topic under discussion and don't have a lot of time to waste playing games.
H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

User avatar
Oleg Grigoryev
Member
Posts: 5051
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
Location: Russia

Re: Ehrenburg

#37

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 10 Aug 2009, 09:37

michael mills wrote:Here is a post I wrote on 15 July 2005:
The periodical in which Erenburg's articles appeared in English was "Soviet War News". Since it was published in Britain, I hardly think it was edited by Goebbels.

An example of Erenburg's incitement against German women appeared in English in the Soviet War News of 7 December 1944.

German women arouse only feelings of abhorrence in us. We despise them because they are the mothers, wives and sisters of butchers. We despise them because they wrote to their sons, husbands and brothers, 'Send us a beautiful fur coat'. We despise them because they are thieves and temptresses. We need none of these flaxen-haired hyenas. We are coming to Germany for something else - for Germany. And these particular flaxen-haired witches will not easily escape us.
The terms in which Erenburg describes German women ("temptresses", "witches") suggest a strong element of misogyny and perhaps sexual perversion in Erenburg's personal psychological make-up.

The use of physical descriptions such as "flaxen-haired" shows that Erenburg was thinking in racial terms, rather in terms of social class.

Furthermore, Erenburg was not expressing hatred of German women for something they had done, but primarily because they were the relatives of German soldiers. That is indicative of the fact that Erenburg was holding the German people collectively guilty for whatever crimes had been committed by only a part of the nation.

Finally, the words "will not easily escape us" could be construed as an incitement to violence against German women. What is it that Erenburg thought German women could not escape?

It may well be that Erenburg was expressing his own personal feelings rather than Soviet policy. It may be that he was using his role as chief propagandist, which had been assigned to him by Shcherbakov, as an outlet for some personal sadistic tendency.

It may that as a Jew (but not one with a strong Jewish identity) he desired retribution for the atrocities committed against his fellow Jews.

But it is certain that Stalin allowed Erenburg to continue pouring out his message of hatred and revenge combined with a hypocritical disclaimer of any desire for vengeance, every day for almost four years. That shows that the expression of Erenburg's personal feelings served Stalin's purpose.

When Stalin no longer needed that message, he stopped Erenburg producing it.
I presume that this article was a translation of something originally published by Erenburg in Russian. This English-language version may contain mistranslations, but if so they were not falsifications by German propagandists, but by Soviet translators.
Thank you michael - it actually does contain mistranslation -more of that later - the article itself is actually very short and deserved to be translated fully because... well it is as "to the point" as it gets.
Commander of Army group North addressed his fritzes with following words:” Iliya Erenburg asks Asian people “to drink the blood of German women”. Ilya Erenburg request Asian people to satisfy themselves with our women: “Take the blondes - they are you booty” Ilya Ereneburg evokes the lowest instincts of the steppes. He who retreats is bustard (well you can insert your own derogatory term in here –Oleg) for German soldiers defend their own wives now. “
There were the days when Germans were forging important state documents. Now they fell so low that they forging my articles. Quotes that German general attributes to me, betray the true author – only German could write such a dirt.
Fritzes are professional rapists, they are fornicators with whole lot of experience behind them, they are hereditary baboons
(that is kind of funny actually as far as insults go -Oleg). They polluted the entire Europe. General assures in vain, that we are coming to Germany for the German females. We are not interested in Grethen (he is using female German name to indicate German woman in the same way he uses Fritz to annotate German male –Oleg) but in those Fritzes that offended our women, and we say straight that to these Germans there will be no mercy. As to German women, the only thing they make us feel is disgust. We despise German women for they are mothers, wives and sisters of executioners. We despise German women because they wrote to their sons, husbands and brothers: «Send to your doll a pretty fur coat». We despise Germans that they thieves and … хипесницы. ( the reason I left this word in original Russian is because I had no idea what it meant. Neither did Microsoft Word. I had to look it up – apparently it's russified Jewish word Xipesnica – that can be translated as a conman or conwoman in this case - since Russian is gender specific. I think that Erenburg put too much faith into how well his targeted public knew the jargon.-Oleg)
We don’t need these blond hyenas. We are coming to Germany for something else – for Germany itself. And this blond will get hurt. ( so here is the major mistranslation – he is not speaking of multiple German women –as in your translation –but the allegorical blond witch that represented Nazi Germany - a Nietzscheanian reference -as in blond beast. I am rather sure that very few people got that one too.
But I guess you now have the proof – Erenburg indeed put the quote you attributed to him in print – when he described the quote attributed to him by German general.
Here is the Russian original http://militera.lib.ru/prose/russian/er ... 3/207.html
Last edited by Oleg Grigoryev on 11 Aug 2009, 11:11, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Ehrenburg

#38

Post by bf109 emil » 10 Aug 2009, 10:06

Ilya Ehrenburg, the leading Soviet propagandist of the Second World War
Looks like he earned his paycheck...probably more so then Steicher but not as likely as did Goebbels

Kanadon
Banned
Posts: 153
Joined: 16 Oct 2008, 02:49

Re: Ehrenburg

#39

Post by Kanadon » 10 Aug 2009, 20:17

I'm still trying to see if his actual printing of this was published in the RED STAR, but so far to no avail
Printing of what exactly?
We need none of these flaxen-haired hyenas. We are coming to Germany for something else -- for Germany. And these particular flaxen-haired witches will not easily escape us.
Even without the mistranslation, this mentions nothing of rape, but on the contrary it says: "we need none of these flaxen-haired hyenas".
I assume that the original German word being translated here is "Unmensch"
Are you sure it wasn't "Untermensch"?

As for the "respected" Dr. Hoffmann, I'm sure he provided sources, so let's see them. Although your selective quotations contain no reference to rape.

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Ehrenburg

#40

Post by bf109 emil » 11 Aug 2009, 00:07

Michael wrote and sourced from the following
Another example of Erenburg's excessively violent propagandising, written on 12 October 1941. This is from his book "Russia at War", p.220f, as quoted in the book by Dr Joachim Hoffmann.
why would Ehrenburg be writing of Russian troops payback to German ladies in Oct of 1941 when the atrocities he uses to provoke and as a reference to Germany where hardly known by the Soviet Troops at this time...and how could he write and release a novel calling for the retribution to German women for the hardship shown to Russia people and complete a book in just 3 1/2 months...and unsure about Hoffmanns book but no book titled "Russia at War" can i find ever written by Ehrenburg for Hoffmann to quote from and ones you used to source your work from...still looking although

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Ehrenburg

#41

Post by David Thompson » 11 Aug 2009, 00:14

bf109 emil -- You wrote:
and unsure about Hoffmanns book but no book titled "Russia at War" can i find ever written by Ehrenburg for Hoffmann to quote from and ones you used to source your work from...still looking although
If you do a google search for Russia at War and "Ehrenburg" as combined terms, you will find that the book was published in 1943, and you can purchase copies from various internet vendors. You can almost certainly get it through your local library's loan program, if your library doesn't already have it. Here are a few examples of the listings:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn1595173
http://www.booksandcollectibles.com.au/ ... 08834.html
http://openlibrary.org/b/OL19854850M/Russia-at-war
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/eburg.htm

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Ehrenburg

#42

Post by bf109 emil » 11 Aug 2009, 01:16

Thank you David and i stand corrected as to the naming of Volume, but still wonder why Hoffmann sources an article by Ehrenburg written in a book 2 years before it was published? and the text of what Ehrenburg wrote regarding the Russians as to assume the reprisal rapes of German women in 1941, when reprisals where far from the minds of Russia in 1941 hasten defending itself and not even considering an offensive into Germany
and again the quote
Erenburg's excessively violent propagandising, written on 12 October 1941. This is from his book "Russia at War",
and your reply
Russia at War and "Ehrenburg" as combined terms, you will find that the book was published in 1943,
I apologize if i missed something here but the date of sourced quote and release of published date don't jive

I can see Ehrenburg quoting from past writings as to being placed in his book, but writings regarding Soviets to march into Germany, etc. in 1941?

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Ehrenburg

#43

Post by David Thompson » 11 Aug 2009, 01:22

bf109 emil -- You wrote:
but still wonder why Hoffmann sources an article by Ehrenburg written in a book 2 years before it was published?
and
I apologize if i missed something here but the date of sourced quote and release of published date don't jive

I can see Ehrenburg quoting from past writings as to being placed in his book, but writings regarding Soviets to march into Germany, etc. in 1941?
Ehrenburg was a journalist, who wrote articles for Soviet newspapers before and during WWII. During WWII, he published a collection of his articles, some of which which had appeared earlier in the newspapers, as VOYNA, IYUL 1941-APREL 1942. Judging from the Russian title, some of these articles were originally published in the summer of 1941.

In 1943, some or all of this collection was translated into English as Russia at War, and republished for an English-speaking audience. See the links I gave above. Consequently, this book, while published in an English translation in 1943, has articles which were originally published in Russian language newspapers dating from 1941.

Kanadon
Banned
Posts: 153
Joined: 16 Oct 2008, 02:49

Re: Ehrenburg

#44

Post by Kanadon » 11 Aug 2009, 02:37

If anybody is interested in michael mill's off-topic article quotes from Dr Hoffmann, I found two of the three in original form.
They are perverts, sodomites, addicted to all forms of bestiality.......They grab Russian girls and drag them into brothels.......They hang priests....They wear belts with the motto 'God With Us', but beat dying prisoners in the face with their belts........Culture to them means fountain pens and safety razors. They use the fountain pens to jot down how many girls they have raped; they shave with safety razors, then use straight razors to cut off the noses, ears and breasts of their victims.
12 October, 1941
http://militera.lib.ru/prose/russian/er ... 3/039.html
The [German] girls gaze at the passing Red Army men ingratiatingly, lecherously, as if they were cabaret waitresses instead of burghers' daughters.
1 March, 1945.
http://militera.lib.ru/prose/russian/er ... 3/217.html


There still hasn't been anything about rape, am I correct?

I would aslo like to comment on Hoffmann's book, "Stalins Vernichtungs-krieg", 1941-1945. He read the Soviet articles in English, then translated them into German, then his book was translated into English again ("Stalin's War of Extermination"). The articles were never copied in their exact form. From the site http://labas.livejournal.com/706510.html I gathered that on a number of occasions he mistranslated or ripped excerpts completely out of context. Is that what a "respected" historian does? And as michael mills loves putting labels on people, I could easily call Hoffmann a revisionist.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Ehrenburg

#45

Post by David Thompson » 11 Aug 2009, 03:37

Kanadon -- Please avoid personal comments about other posters.

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”