Ehrenburg

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Kanadon
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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by Kanadon » 11 Aug 2009 02:45

Is anybody willing to pay $12,500 for the complete "Soviet War News" collection?

http://www.ilab.org/db/book1462_20316.html

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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by David Thompson » 11 Aug 2009 02:50

I'll check with my bank account in Lagos, Nigeria. Now let's get back on topic.

Kanadon
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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by Kanadon » 11 Aug 2009 03:04

I can't find who tranlated for the Soviet Embassy in London. Is it common practice for the guest country to take on that job?

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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by michael mills » 11 Aug 2009 03:16

There still hasn't been anything about rape, am I correct?
The message that Erenburg is quite clearly sending out to the Soviet soldiers who are exposed to the propaganda produced by him is that German women are sexually depraved, that they are "temptresses", that they are to be treated with hatred and contempt, that they are "asking for it", that they want to copulate in an animal fashion.

It is said that the crime of rape is an act of hatred, a way of expressing contempt for a woman. If Erenburg was telling Soviet soldiers to feel hatred and contempt for German women, and at the same time implanting in their minds the concept that German women were depraved whores who were '"asking for it", then he was certainly giving indirect incitement to Soviet soldiers to abuse German women sexually, even if not saying explicitly "rape them".

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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by Kanadon » 11 Aug 2009 04:51

German women are sexually depraved
Calling them whores doesn't imply they are sexually depraved. It implies they are whores.
It is said that the crime of rape is an act of hatred, a way of expressing contempt for a woman.
Rape, also referred to as sexual assault, is an assault by a person involving sexual intercourse with or without sexual penetration of another person without that person's consent.
Wikipedia
If Erenburg was telling Soviet soldiers to feel hatred and contempt for German women, and at the same time implanting in their minds the concept that German women were depraved whores who were '"asking for it", then he was certainly giving indirect incitement to Soviet soldiers to abuse German women sexually, even if not saying explicitly "rape them".
Brilliant conclusion.

Here is a quote you won't like, michael:
Немцы жгли избы с людьми, привязывали к конским хвостам старух, бесчинствовали, терзали беззащитных, насиловали. Нет, мы не будем платить им той же монетой! Наша ненависть — высокое чувство, оно требует суда, а не расправы, кары, а не насилия.
Germans burned houses with people inside, tied elderly women to horses' tails, acted outrageously, tormented defenceless, raped. No, we will not pay them with the same coin! Our hate — is a fine feeling, it demands trial, not reprisal, scourge or violence.
15 January, 1945
http://militera.lib.ru/prose/russian/er ... 3/212.html

What shall you say of that quote? What did he try to implant?

200 of Ehrenburg's articles were published (all of them written during the war). Now, you pick several sentences, twist them around, put them together and arrive at a highly complex psychological plan to IMPLANT millions of minds with a horrific concept of raping women.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 11 Aug 2009 10:22

Mikhail ,I realize that my English does not correspond to the high standard that you employ – and, it probably takes considerable effort to labor through my posts – but they do contain useful information -every now and then. Let me give you a “for instance” : the Russian word for temptresses is соблазнительница - soblaznitelnica - if you use transliteration. That word is not present in Russian original of Erenburg article that you quoted, and I provided Russian original for (here it is again http://militera.lib.ru/prose/russian/er ... 3/207.html). The word, that for whatever reason there is, got translated as “temptresses” was хипесница - again using transliteration Hipesnica (last “c” makes the same sound as it does in “cent”) and I repeat part of my post from yesterday
apparently it's russified Jewish word Xipesnica – that can be translated as a conman or conwoman in this case - since Russian is gender specific. I think that Erenburg put too much faith into how well his targeted public knew the jargon.-Oleg
in their minds the concept that German women were depraved whores who were '"asking for it", then he was certainly giving indirect incitement to Soviet soldiers to abuse German women sexually, even if not saying explicitly "rape them".
I am not too sure about the origin of the “whore” thing, since the Russian word for “whore” is considered to be so profane and vulgar, that it is hardly suitable for official print - in the same way you would not be able to print in official English newspaper the dreaded “f-word”. That being said, in that short proclamation, that I translated (not mentioning the fact that he explicitly states “we don’t want them” ) he says “the only thing they make us feel is disgust” . I don’t know about you (don’t want to know – don’t take it personally) but it does not sound to me as much of an incentive. Not to sound too scabrous – but honestly, to have an intercourse with someone you don’t even want to touch – that sounds like a challenge for one of those reality TV shows, where they challenge you to eat worms and such -promising you some money at the end. Oh maybe prono-version of Klondike bar commercial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwpBNEg7wgE

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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by Sergey » 11 Aug 2009 13:44

Mr. Ehrenburg wrote in his areticle:

"Мы презираем немок за то, что они воровки и хипесницы."

"We despice German women because they are thieves and khipesnitsas"

The last word is rarely used in Russian. Personally I see it for the first time and would be unable to suggent its meaning without context. The word came from the slang of thieves. It denotes a protitute who uses to steal money and valuables from her clients.

Thus the phrase can be translated as

"We despice German women because they are thieving prostitutes"

Personally I don't see any calls in the article to rape German women. Rather mr.Erenburg tried to prevent rapes presenting German women as dirty creations.

PS. Out of the theme. 5 years ago mr.Putin (then a president) publicly used a rare word tsugunder. I heard it for the first time (and most of the Russians as well). Likely it originaed from German zu hundert - a hundred hits by a stick (a punishment in the German army). The word (that also belongs of the slang of thieves) now means a very bad situation, hard problems, prison.

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bf109 emil
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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by bf109 emil » 11 Aug 2009 19:50

It is said that the crime of rape is an act of hatred, a way of expressing contempt for a woman. If Erenburg was telling Soviet soldiers to feel hatred and contempt for German women, and at the same time implanting in their minds the concept that German women were depraved whores who were '"asking for it", then he was certainly giving indirect incitement to Soviet soldiers to abuse German women sexually, even if not saying explicitly "rape them".
how can you assume this without the word rape...you argued vigorously that without this word in a Dr. Joels taken of Goerings thoughts you said and argued there was no way the Germans where given this order and to not assume this! how are to suddenly assume this was indeed the intention of Ehrenburg without this precise and definite order or wording without proof or source?

and from your own words Mr. Mills and i can see how this holds true not only to Germans but to Russians
In any case. an "order" to commit rape is a contradiction in terms. Men can be permitted to commit rape, they can be given immunity from prosecution for committing acts of rape, but they cannot be ordered to. The desire to rape must come from within themselves.
so in other words Enrenburg thoughts and assumptions are just these as rape must come from within oneself and men cannot be ordered to do so or assumed to do so by placing a hypothesis on the wording of a text to assume or allege this was the desire or cause of said action

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Benoit Douville
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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by Benoit Douville » 12 Aug 2009 00:21

I think we are missing the point here. The main question we have to ask here is wheter or not Ehrenburg encouraged rape is the fact that the Red Army soldiers raped a lot of German women and that is a fact and nobody said nothing, I am sure they are exception but Beria didn't say nothing, nobody was court-martialed for that bad behavior.

Regards

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 12 Aug 2009 00:33

Benoit Douville wrote:I think we are missing the point here. The main question we have to ask here is wheter or not Ehrenburg encouraged rape is the fact that the Red Army soldiers raped a lot of German women and that is a fact and nobody said nothing, I am sure they are exception but Beria didn't say nothing, nobody was court-martialed for that bad behavior.

Regards
No we are not missing anything -this is a thread that deals specifically with alleged Erenburg complicity. You are also wrong with your assumptions that nobody got prosecuted - if you want to discuss this - I suggest reanimating some relevant existing thread - there is number of them in this section - this one for instance http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=300 . Before you do though - may I suggest that you read the very last post.

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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by michael mills » 15 Aug 2009 01:36

Here is a quote from Erenburg's diatribe "Wolves They Were, Wolves They Remain", published in English in Soviet News Weekly, 15 March 1945, giving his account of a two-week visit he made to occupied east Prussia.
The [German] girls gaze at the passing Red Army men ingratiatingly, lecherously, as if they were cabaret waitresses instead of burghers' daughters.
Here Erenburg is implying that German women are whores, ready to jump into bed with lusty Red Army men. The clear message is that Red Army men are not raping innocent German women, they are just giving the randy German bitches what they want.

I now await the quibbling about the Russian-language original really meant. Strange that the persons who translated Erenburg's articles into English for British readers, persons working for representatives of the Soviet Government in Britain, always managed to somehow mkae Erenburg's diatribes sound worse than they really were.

Did the representatives of the Soviet Government in Britain want to give British people, the allies of the heroic Red Army, the false impression that Erenburg was preaching hatred for German women and calling for revenge on them?

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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by bf109 emil » 15 Aug 2009 02:32

The [German] girls gaze at the passing Red Army men ingratiatingly, lecherously, as if they were cabaret waitresses instead of burghers' daughters.
Their is no doubt in Ehrenburg seeming hatred of German women, but this is no way a reference for them to conduct rape but a personal opinion....

If we are to assume what you are saying maybe articles which portrayed Soviet women in the same light can be also assumed German writers as to okay the rape of Russian women and as a viable source?

The was no rape order or the okay to do so other then a writers personal opinion and feeling of German ladies and his discuss of them. I see no order to rape or for Soviet soldiers to do so with the blessing of the Red Army and how the isolated views of a single journalist can even be comprehended as to be taken this way

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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by michael mills » 15 Aug 2009 02:45

If we are to assume what you are saying maybe articles which portrayed Soviet women in the same light can be also assumed German writers as to okay the rape of Russian women and as a viable source?
Do you have some examples?

Material disseminated to troops picturing the women of an enemy population as lecherous whores whose sole desire is to copulate with the troops to whom that material is disseminated can certainly be seen as official encouragement to abuse the enemy women sexually.

The views about German women expressed by Erenburg may have been his own opinion, but his views were published in official Soviet propaganda and widely disseminated. Obviously offical Soviet propaganda did not not publish views that were not endorsed by the Soviet leadership, or with which the leadership disagreed.

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bf109 emil
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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by bf109 emil » 15 Aug 2009 03:05

The views about German women expressed by Erenburg may have been his own opinion, but his views were published in official Soviet propaganda and widely disseminated. Obviously official Soviet propaganda did not not publish views that were not endorsed by the Soviet leadership, or with which the leadership disagreed
see this i understand and thank you...and was there some form of censorship by the USSR as to what could be written...why i ask this is in Der Sturmer by Julius Streicher, and after reading Goldensohn book the Nuremberg Interviews, almost everyone whom was asked refers to this magazine as rubbish or pornographic?? yet it was still published and read and continued to do so!!

I am not trying to compared Ehrenburg to Streicher or to justify one and not another, but it seems that during WW2 most journalists where given a free hand to write if it was deemed derogatory towards the enemy or towards it's nation and people...some others might know more about this but i have a suspicion works along the wording or degrading of Japanese went to press in America, or of Germans in the British press etc.

What i meant by this was, and i know from my limited search abilities at times i won't be able to find this, but where their any Soviet Generals or leaders that might have scene Ehrenburgs works or writings in the same light as say Streichers Dur Sturmer, yet never voiced this or tended to just not read and ignore as trash...what i am getting at even if Ehrenburg printed and wrote statements such as these where they often acted upon or scene as kinda like Germany saw in Streichers works as to far fetched or just that propaganda?

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Re: Ehrenburg

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 15 Aug 2009 06:28

Rather mr.Erenburg tried to prevent rapes presenting German women as dirty creations.
I don't think your kind of sarcasm finds to the matter of this threads....and millions of women having experienced the Red Army way of getting "liberated" won't find such jokes funny, too :roll:

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