Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

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bertamingo
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Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by bertamingo » 20 Feb 2019 07:41

Hi folks, after reading that the Holy See considered the Nazis as demon-possessed and that the Pope himself conducted a failed exorcism on AH, I'm looking for some more information about this topic. Namely:
1, any details on the failed exorcism by the Pope on AH? Did it simply have no observable effects or were there any perceived demonic resistance etc.?
2, is there any other known cases of exorcism being performed on other Holocaust perpetrators, from high-ranking officials to rank-and-file members? If yes, what were the results?
I shall be grateful for any information provided. :)

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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by David Thompson » 20 Feb 2019 13:58

bertamingo -- (1) What is your source for the premise of this thread?

(2) From the section rules:
In the research sections of the forum, we ask the posters to be reasonably well-prepared, and not ask others for information which they could easily get for themselves. The purpose of these sections of the forum is to provide a place where historical matters can be intelligently discussed. It is not a research service.

Noncomplying posts are subject to deletion after warning.

If you have a question, please let the readers know what steps you have taken to answer it when you post the inquiry. This will eliminate misunderstandings and give responding posters a better idea of your familiarity with the subject
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bertamingo
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by bertamingo » 20 Feb 2019 23:20

David Thompson wrote:
20 Feb 2019 13:58
bertamingo -- (1) What is your source for the premise of this thread?

(2) From the section rules:
In the research sections of the forum, we ask the posters to be reasonably well-prepared, and not ask others for information which they could easily get for themselves. The purpose of these sections of the forum is to provide a place where historical matters can be intelligently discussed. It is not a research service.

Noncomplying posts are subject to deletion after warning.

If you have a question, please let the readers know what steps you have taken to answer it when you post the inquiry. This will eliminate misunderstandings and give responding posters a better idea of your familiarity with the subject
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David --
(1) There are a few sources which all tell the same story, one of them is:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... tican.html

(2) I am confused by the cited rules, which seem to suggest the answers to my questions are 'easily' acquired. In fact, I had searched a bit on the google before posting this thread, and I also have access to a few libraries. But I've found no details other than simple descriptions of the purported failure of exorcism on AH. Imho the cited rules don't apply here as these questions are not easily answered.

Furthremore, hopefully my thread is written clearly to clarify that: (a) this is not a religious discussion on whether the perpetrators were demon-possessed or not; but rather (b) this is a discussion on the church's actions based on the assumption that the perpetrators were possessed by demons.

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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Ironmachine » 21 Feb 2019 08:31

bertamingo wrote:(1) There are a few sources which all tell the same story, one of them is:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... tican.html
Unless I'm missing something, there is nothing in that link that says "the Holy See considered the Nazis as demon-possessed" and that "the Pope himself conducted a failed exorcism on AH". The article only says that Father Gabriele Amorth (not the Holy See, nor the Roman Catholic Church) is "convinced that the Nazis were all possessed" and that he has "previously claimed that both Hitler and Stalin were possessed by the Devil"; nothing at all about an exorcism on AH conducted by the Pope. So unless you can provide another source....
Anyway, I wouldn't give much credence to a man who says he has performed 70,000 exorcisms: that's one exorcism per day (no Sunday rest! :lol: ) for more than 191 years or, for example, as he is 85 years old and and let's say he began performing exorcisms at 20, nearly three exorcisms per day (no weekends, holidays, etc) 8O .

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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Sejanus » 21 Feb 2019 08:40

bertamingo wrote:
20 Feb 2019 07:41
Hi folks, after reading that the Holy See considered the Nazis as demon-possessed and that the Pope himself conducted a failed exorcism on AH, I'm looking for some more information about this topic. Namely:
1, any details on the failed exorcism by the Pope on AH? Did it simply have no observable effects or were there any perceived demonic resistance etc.?
2, is there any other known cases of exorcism being performed on other Holocaust perpetrators, from high-ranking officials to rank-and-file members? If yes, what were the results?
I shall be grateful for any information provided. :)
Reportedly because the (claimed) exorcism was performed via "long distance" (Hitler obviously was not present) it "failed to have any effect," according to a 2006 story in the Daily Mail:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rcist.html

If this is something that you are seriously interested in, my impression is that you would have better research potential in contacting the Vatican directly and asking them.

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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by bertamingo » 21 Feb 2019 09:04

Ironmachine wrote:
21 Feb 2019 08:31
bertamingo wrote:(1) There are a few sources which all tell the same story, one of them is:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... tican.html
Unless I'm missing something, there is nothing in that link that says "the Holy See considered the Nazis as demon-possessed" and that "the Pope himself conducted a failed exorcism on AH". The article only says that Father Gabriele Amorth (not the Holy See, nor the Roman Catholic Church) is "convinced that the Nazis were all possessed" and that he has "previously claimed that both Hitler and Stalin were possessed by the Devil"; nothing at all about an exorcism on AH conducted by the Pope. So unless you can provide another source....
Anyway, I wouldn't give much credence to a man who says he has performed 70,000 exorcisms: that's one exorcism per day (no Sunday rest! :lol: ) for more than 191 years or, for example, as he is 85 years old and and let's say he began performing exorcisms at 20, nearly three exorcisms per day (no weekends, holidays, etc) 8O .
Like I said there are several pages telling basically the same story, so I randomly selected one of them without checking if it covers all the details mentioned. Anyway here's another that does mention the Pope's alleged exorcism. Since Pope leads the church I'd presume his stance, if true, represents that of Vatican.
https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2016/09/ ... s-is-dead/

The 70,000 number, according to the above link, is a reported(by the said father?) number which is surely exaggerated, but it's common to see exaggerated numbers in media.

Of course, if you find it overly amusing or otherwise bothering, feel free to carry out what u implied. I am interested in this topic among countless others, so wouldn't care too much if this one is gone.

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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Sejanus » 21 Feb 2019 09:11

Supposedly the information came from "secret Vatican documents recently released," recent then being 2006 when the article I linked to above was published. Another source idea would be to search any additional statements of Gabriele Amorth ("The Exorcist") relevant to your questions, as he is the person that made the claims to the media in the first place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriele_Amorth

A potential Vatican contact would be Gabriele Amorth's successor, as Amorth himself is deceased.

Good luck.

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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Feb 2019 09:16

Hi Bergamino,

If Pius xii considered the perpetrators of the so-called "Holocaust" to be demon-possessed, why, when Vatican foreign minister in 1933 did he negotiate the Reichskonkordat with Hitler, get the Catholic opposition party to support the Enabling Act which gave Hitler dictatorial powers and then get it dissolved?

And why, when Pope, did he not excommunicate Father Tiso, a Catholic priest who was President of Axis Slovakia, who collaborated with Nazis in expelling the country's Jews, who became the first mass group gassed at Auschwitz?

Or why, after Pavelic, the Catholic head of state of the Catholic Ustasa regime in Axis Croatia, had presided over the massacre of most of the country's Jews did he not excommunicate him?

And why, after the war, was Tiso found hiding in a Catholic monstery in Bavaria while Pavelic was helped to escape to Argentina by Catholic institutions in Italy?

Before Pius XIi started exorcising other people for tjeir role in the mass murder of Jews, he would first have to address his own sins of omission regarding thr "Holocaust". Is auto-exorcism possible?

Cheers,

Sid

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Ironmachine
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Ironmachine » 21 Feb 2019 09:21

Sejanus wrote:Reportedly because the (claimed) exorcism was performed via "long distance" (Hitler obviously was not present) it "failed to have any effect," according to a 2006 story in the Daily Mail:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rcist.html
bertamingo wrote:Like I said there are several pages telling basically the same story, so I randomly selected one of them without checking if it covers all the details mentioned. Anyway here's another that does mention the Pope's alleged exorcism. Since Pope leads the church I'd presume his stance, if true, represents that of Vatican.
https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2016/09/ ... s-is-dead/
The "secret Vatican documents" (and please note that the daily mail article, dated 2006, says that they were "recently released", while the mysteriousuniverse article, dated 2016, still says they are secret; conspiracy anyone? :lol: ) may have been the sworn testimony of Mother Pascalina Lehnert, who was Pope Pius XII's housekeeper and secretary. In the canonization process of Pius XII it seems she claimed to have been witness of the exorcisms:
el cardenal alemán Michael von Faulhaber y otros obispos estaban persuadidos de que Hitler estaba endemoniado, así que alertaron al Santo Padre, y éste, cuando se empezó la guerra, no sólo hizo oraciones, sino que recurrió al exorcismo sobre Hitler en su Capilla privada, presentes nosotras, las religiosas».
https://www.religionenlibertad.com/mund ... rarlo.html
A rather weak evidence, IMHO.
bertamingo wrote:Since Pope leads the church I'd presume his stance, if true, represents that of Vatican
Not always, not necessarily...
bertamingo wrote:The 70,000 number, according to the above link, is a reported(by the said father?) number which is surely exaggerated, but it's common to see exaggerated numbers in media.
And it is also common to see exaggerated claims in media. This one about the exorcism can be one of those.
Anyone, it should be remarked that Father Gabriele Amorth is not the source of the tale, nor a "witness" of the "exorcism".

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Ironmachine
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Ironmachine » 21 Feb 2019 09:28

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Bergamino,

If Pius xii considered the perpetrators of the so-called "Holocaust" to be demon-possessed, why, when Vatican foreign minister in 1933 did he negotiate the Reichskonkordat with Hitler, get the Catholic opposition party to support the Enabling Act which gave Hitler dictatorial powers and then get it dissolved?

And why, when Pope, did he not excommunicate Father Tiso, a Catholic priest who was President of Axis Slovakia, who collaborated with Nazis in expelling the country's Jews, who became the first mass group gassed at Auschwitz?

Or why, after Pavelic, the Catholic head of state of the Catholic Ustasa regime in Axis Croatia, had presided over the massacre of most of the country's Jews did he not excommunicate him?

And why, after the war, was Tiso found hiding in a Catholic monstery in Bavaria while Pavelic was helped to escape to Argentina by Catholic institutions in Italy?

Before Pius XIi started exorcising other people for tjeir role in the mass murder of Jews, he would first have to address his own sins of omission regarding thr "Holocaust". Is auto-exorcism possible?

Cheers,

Sid
Well, if you really, really believe they were demon-possessed, then you have to believe they were not responsible for their actions. Once free of the possession, you should not consider them guilty of the acts they performed while demon-possessed. That may explain those Pius XII's actions you mention. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Sejanus » 21 Feb 2019 09:31

Sid Guttridge wrote:
21 Feb 2019 09:16
Hi Bergamino,

If Pius xii considered the perpetrators of the so-called "Holocaust" to be demon-possessed, why, when Vatican foreign minister in 1933 did he negotiate the Reichskonkordat with Hitler, get the Catholic opposition party to support the Enabling Act which gave Hitler dictatorial powers and then get it dissolved?

And why, when Pope, did he not excommunicate Father Tiso, a Catholic priest who was President of Axis Slovakia, who collaborated with Nazis in expelling the country's Jews, who became the first mass group gassed at Auschwitz?

Or why, after Pavelic, the Catholic head of state of the Catholic Ustasa regime in Axis Croatia, had presided over the massacre of most of the country's Jews did he not excommunicate him?

And why, after the war, was Tiso found hiding in a Catholic monstery in Bavaria while Pavelic was helped to escape to Argentina by Catholic institutions in Italy?

Before Pius XIi started exorcising other people for tjeir role in the mass murder of Jews, he would first have to address his own sins of omission regarding thr "Holocaust". Is auto-exorcism possible?

Cheers,

Sid
In matters of faith reason has no place. :milwink:

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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by bertamingo » 21 Feb 2019 09:34

Sejanus wrote:
21 Feb 2019 09:11
Supposedly the information came from "secret Vatican documents recently released," recent then being 2006 when the article I linked to above was published. Another source idea would be to search any additional statements of Gabriele Amorth ("The Exorcist") relevant to your questions, as he is the person that made the claims to the media in the first place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriele_Amorth

A potential Vatican contact would be Gabriele Amorth's successor, as Amorth himself is deceased.

Good luck.
Thank you very much for the links and suggestions! I will see if these people can be reached by email. not sure if they will be willing to seriously reply to ordinary people but trying is the only way to find out. :D

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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Sejanus » 21 Feb 2019 09:37

bertamingo wrote:
21 Feb 2019 09:34
Sejanus wrote:
21 Feb 2019 09:11
Supposedly the information came from "secret Vatican documents recently released," recent then being 2006 when the article I linked to above was published. Another source idea would be to search any additional statements of Gabriele Amorth ("The Exorcist") relevant to your questions, as he is the person that made the claims to the media in the first place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriele_Amorth

A potential Vatican contact would be Gabriele Amorth's successor, as Amorth himself is deceased.

Good luck.
Thank you very much for the links and suggestions! I will see if these people can be reached by email. not sure if they will be willing to seriously reply to ordinary people but trying is the only way to find out. :D
It's worth a try since they take this sort of thing seriously.

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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Feb 2019 09:54

Hi Bergamino,

So Roman Catholic perpetrators of the "Holocaust" can escape earthly punishment through exorcism by their own Pope, despite his own sins of omission, but non-Catholics can't?

Seems like a good deal. Sign me up now!

Yours in confession,

St. Sid.

bertamingo
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by bertamingo » 21 Feb 2019 10:05

Sid Guttridge wrote:
21 Feb 2019 09:54
Hi Bergamino,

So Roman Catholic perpetrators of the "Holocaust" can escape earthly punishment through exorcism by their own Pope, despite his own sins of omission, but non-Catholics can't?

Seems like a good deal. Sign me up now!

Yours in confession,

St. Sid.
Are you relentlessly doing this because I proved one minor point of yours wrong in another thread?

I saw the story on media so ask about it, so now u think I am the official spokesman or defend lawyer of the Catholic Church and should answer for all its wrongdoings? Go and sign yourself up with Vatican.

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