Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Sejanus
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Sejanus » 21 Feb 2019 10:15

bertamingo wrote:
21 Feb 2019 10:05
Sid Guttridge wrote:
21 Feb 2019 09:54
Hi Bergamino,

So Roman Catholic perpetrators of the "Holocaust" can escape earthly punishment through exorcism by their own Pope, despite his own sins of omission, but non-Catholics can't?

Seems like a good deal. Sign me up now!

Yours in confession,

St. Sid.
Are you relentlessly doing this because I proved one minor point of yours wrong in another thread?

I saw the story on media so ask about it, so now u think I am the official spokesman or defend lawyer of the Catholic Church and should answer for all its wrongdoings? Go and sign yourself up with Vatican.
Best at times not to feed the trolls when they sometimes appear; appetites for conflict that cannot be satiated.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Ironmachine » 21 Feb 2019 10:21

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Bergamino,[sic]

So Roman Catholic perpetrators of the "Holocaust" can escape earthly punishment through exorcism by their own Pope, despite his own sins of omission, but non-Catholics can't?
No, Roman Catholics can't. I mean, they certainly can escape earthly punishment, but not throught exorcism by their own Pope (or by anyone, for that matter). I'm sure you already knew that. They may escape eternal, helly punishment (if you believe in that sort of things), but that another kind of beast.

bertamingo
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by bertamingo » 21 Feb 2019 10:27

Sejanus wrote:
21 Feb 2019 10:15
bertamingo wrote:
21 Feb 2019 10:05
Sid Guttridge wrote:
21 Feb 2019 09:54
Hi Bergamino,

So Roman Catholic perpetrators of the "Holocaust" can escape earthly punishment through exorcism by their own Pope, despite his own sins of omission, but non-Catholics can't?

Seems like a good deal. Sign me up now!

Yours in confession,

St. Sid.
Are you relentlessly doing this because I proved one minor point of yours wrong in another thread?

I saw the story on media so ask about it, so now u think I am the official spokesman or defend lawyer of the Catholic Church and should answer for all its wrongdoings? Go and sign yourself up with Vatican.
Best at times not to feed the trolls when they sometimes appear; appetites for conflict that cannot be satiated.
Thank you again for the brilliant advice. I myself is also partially at fault, because discussions related to religion can be very tricky. Now I can see why Dave doesn't want this thread.

Sejanus
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Location: The Continent

Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Sejanus » 21 Feb 2019 10:57

bertamingo wrote:
21 Feb 2019 10:27
Sejanus wrote:
21 Feb 2019 10:15
bertamingo wrote:
21 Feb 2019 10:05
Sid Guttridge wrote:
21 Feb 2019 09:54
Hi Bergamino,

So Roman Catholic perpetrators of the "Holocaust" can escape earthly punishment through exorcism by their own Pope, despite his own sins of omission, but non-Catholics can't?

Seems like a good deal. Sign me up now!

Yours in confession,

St. Sid.
Are you relentlessly doing this because I proved one minor point of yours wrong in another thread?

I saw the story on media so ask about it, so now u think I am the official spokesman or defend lawyer of the Catholic Church and should answer for all its wrongdoings? Go and sign yourself up with Vatican.
Best at times not to feed the trolls when they sometimes appear; appetites for conflict that cannot be satiated.
Thank you again for the brilliant advice. I myself is also partially at fault, because discussions related to religion can be very tricky. Now I can see why Dave doesn't want this thread.
I figured it would turn out this way. But no reason not to approach this as any other research project. At least you have some places to start now.

If you decide to spend much time on this, might I suggest verifying the bonafides of Gabriele Amorth and his position with the church during his tenure? It would not be difficult. Generally reporters conduct due diligence on their subjects & sources, however if Amorth was not what he claimed to be regarding the church it would tend to discredit whatever other claims he also had made. The element of sensationalism here makes me wonder.

One of your questions was whether any physical effects of the attempted exorcism were noted or not. However, since the exorcism was reportedly performed "long distance" without anybody from the church present and able to observe what happened on Hitler's end, the church would probably not be in a position to know if there were any specific effects on Hitler (other than it did not work, easy to determine that from long distance).

If you succeed in learning the date of the exorcism ritual, if interested further you then might research things like Dr Joseph Goebbels' diary entries or other sources that were close to Hitler and in a position to observe and record things like his day to day moods & actions at that time, etc. Perhaps there is a link to be discovered for those interested in this sort of thing; a behavior exhibited by Hitler consistent with possessed subjects as defined by the church, when the exorcism attempt took place. [This seems absurd as I read it back, but what the heck! If I was to research it this is what I would do.]

On the other hand, as time went on and his fortunes turned, Hitler threw tantrums, ranting & raving like a madman, so if the exorcism attempt occurred during this period of defeat it may be harder to isolate the exorcism as the cause of the behavior. People afflicted with Parkinson's disease (as Hitler was) are also noted to suffer cognitive disturbances that could explain irrational behaviors, and the bomb blast of 20 July undoubtedly affected Hitler's thought process as well.

Personally, I do not believe that Hitler needed any help (from a demon or anything else) in the evil department. And people need not be possessed by anything other than their own psychopathy in order to do the things incomprehensible to the rest of us. But that is beyond the point.

SloveneLiberal
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by SloveneLiberal » 21 Feb 2019 11:56

Bertamingo i think it is in fact quite likely that at least some in Vatican believed Hitler was possessed by the devil or his demons. Many nazis were involved in occult things and christians usually believe that occult is connected with the devil.

In this article it is claimed that long time chief exorcist in Rome believed that both Hitler and Stalin were possessed by the devil and that ISIS are agents of Satan.

Unfortunately you can not ask him for details because he died like two years ago.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest ... rry-Potter

bertamingo
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by bertamingo » 22 Feb 2019 03:38

Sejanus wrote:
21 Feb 2019 10:57
I figured it would turn out this way. But no reason not to approach this as any other research project. At least you have some places to start now.

If you decide to spend much time on this, might I suggest verifying the bonafides of Gabriele Amorth and his position with the church during his tenure? It would not be difficult. Generally reporters conduct due diligence on their subjects & sources, however if Amorth was not what he claimed to be regarding the church it would tend to discredit whatever other claims he also had made. The element of sensationalism here makes me wonder.

One of your questions was whether any physical effects of the attempted exorcism were noted or not. However, since the exorcism was reportedly performed "long distance" without anybody from the church present and able to observe what happened on Hitler's end, the church would probably not be in a position to know if there were any specific effects on Hitler (other than it did not work, easy to determine that from long distance).

If you succeed in learning the date of the exorcism ritual, if interested further you then might research things like Dr Joseph Goebbels' diary entries or other sources that were close to Hitler and in a position to observe and record things like his day to day moods & actions at that time, etc. Perhaps there is a link to be discovered for those interested in this sort of thing; a behavior exhibited by Hitler consistent with possessed subjects as defined by the church, when the exorcism attempt took place. [This seems absurd as I read it back, but what the heck! If I was to research it this is what I would do.]

On the other hand, as time went on and his fortunes turned, Hitler threw tantrums, ranting & raving like a madman, so if the exorcism attempt occurred during this period of defeat it may be harder to isolate the exorcism as the cause of the behavior. People afflicted with Parkinson's disease (as Hitler was) are also noted to suffer cognitive disturbances that could explain irrational behaviors, and the bomb blast of 20 July undoubtedly affected Hitler's thought process as well.

Personally, I do not believe that Hitler needed any help (from a demon or anything else) in the evil department. And people need not be possessed by anything other than their own psychopathy in order to do the things incomprehensible to the rest of us. But that is beyond the point.
Thank you again for these valuable information and suggestions! I was trying to send PMs but they tend to get stuck in the outbox. Yeah I think this is a worthy, if somehow controversial, topic for both personal interest and historical research, so probably some emails can be sent as soon as this weekend to see what discoveries they can lead to, maybe the purported events really took place, or maybe they turn out to be fabrications and the like.

That said, given what horrendous things the entities like AH, Stalin and Daesh did, it's quite possible that at least some within the Catholic Church sincerely believe/believed a demon element in them. Whether these people represent or represented a majority and/or the official view, however, is much more hazy.

Regarding the tally between the alleged exorcism and AH's erratic behaviors, yeah it would be more convincing if it took place in the first half of the war or even during the peaceful time, as AH got increasingly mad when the tides turned against him. What was AH doing when the Pope did it, if he indeed did it? That's lots of questions marks. :)

bertamingo
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by bertamingo » 22 Feb 2019 03:41

SloveneLiberal wrote:
21 Feb 2019 11:56
Bertamingo i think it is in fact quite likely that at least some in Vatican believed Hitler was possessed by the devil or his demons. Many nazis were involved in occult things and christians usually believe that occult is connected with the devil.

In this article it is claimed that long time chief exorcist in Rome believed that both Hitler and Stalin were possessed by the devil and that ISIS are agents of Satan.

Unfortunately you can not ask him for details because he died like two years ago.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest ... rry-Potter
Thank you so much for the information :wink:

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Feb 2019 14:52

Hi Bertamingo,

I am unaware what other thread you are referring to.

So, no, I am not "relentlessly doing this" (whatever "this" is) for any reason unrelated to this thread.

We have here a topic that includes a number of propositions that are contentious to the rational mind: Is there God? Is there a Satan? Does demon-possession even exist? If it does, is there any basis in exorcism? Etc., etc..

Father Amorth looks ridiculous with his: "From their mouths, anything can come out – pieces of iron as long as a finger, but also rose petals.", not to mention "shards of glass". Really?

So, I am sorry if I sound a little cynical, but sometimes that is the appropriate response.

Cheers,

Sid.

bertamingo
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by bertamingo » 23 Feb 2019 12:27

No problem, afterall religion is not easy to discuss. But, this topic itself is not really about whether God etc. exist or not, as clarified early in the thread. Then, it'd be totally acceptable if the entire reported story turned out to be nothing but hoax or propoganda, because we all know the Catholic church is not impeccable at all.

David Thompson
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Re: Holocaust perpetrators as demon-possessed entities

Post by David Thompson » 26 Feb 2019 00:44

Let's stay on topic. The English tabloid the Daily Mail of August 29, 2006 says (at https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rcist.html):
According to secret Vatican documents recently released wartime pontiff Pope Pius XII attempted a "long distance" exorcism of Hitler which failed to have any effect.
If the Daily Mail's claim is true, perhaps the Vatican has some details.

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