Himmler, Heydrich and the Fuehrer Order

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Post by David Thompson » 10 Jun 2003 09:09

Michael -- Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed replies. I will try to respond as soon as possible. I'll start by posting some biographical details on the participants as an aid to the other readers, and go on from there.

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Post by David Thompson » 10 Jun 2003 21:59

Here are the biographical details I was talking about:

von dem Bach [-Zelewski], Erich Julius Eberhard (1.3.1899-8.3.1972) [SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen-SS und Polizei] – born Erich Julius Eberhard von Zelewski, NSDAP: 489101; SS: 9831; WWI service as infantry officer 1914-1924; forced to resign Feb 1924 for involvement in political intrigue; legally added von dem Bach" to family name in late 1930's; had "Zelewski" officially removed from his name Nov 1941; joined NSDAP Feb 1930; Reichstag Deputy (Mitglied des Reichstages) for electoral district (Wahlkreis) Breslau (Wroclaw) Jul 1932-May 1945; leader, 27th SS Regiment "Ostmark" (Fűhrer, 27.SS-Standarte "Ostmark") at Frankfurt-am-Oder 15 Dec 1931-12 Jul 1932; leader of SS District XII (Fűhrer, SS-Abschnitt XII) variously located at Dühringhof, Liebenow and Frankfurt-am-Oder 12 Jul 1932-21 Jan 1934; leader, SS District VII (Fűhrer, SS-Abschnitt VII) at Königsberg 12 Feb-20 Mar 1934; leader, SS Region "Northeast" (Fűhrer, SS-Oberabschnitt "Nordost") at Königsberg 1 Feb 1934-15 Feb 1936; leader, SS Region "Southeast" (Fűhrer, SS-Oberabschnitt "Südost") at Breslau (Wroclaw) 15 Feb 1936-26 Jun 1941; Senior SS and Police Commander "Southeast" (HSSPF "Suedost") at Breslau 28 Jun 1938-20 May 1941; Senior SS and Police Commander "Central Russia and White Ruthenia" (HSSPF "Russland-Mitte und Weissruthenien") at Mogilev and Minsk 1 May 1941-21 Jun 1944; Plenipotentiary for Combating Partisans in the East (Bevollmächtigter für die Bandenkampfung im Osten) 23 Oct 1942-21 Jun 1943; chief of Anti-Partisan Units (Chef der Bandenkampfverbände) 21 Jun 1943-Nov 1944; commander, Corps Group "von dem Bach" (Kom.Gen. Korpsgruppe "von dem Bach") during the suppression of the Warsaw uprising Aug-Nov 1944; commander, SS XIV Corps (Kom.Gen. XIV.SS-Armee-Korps) Nov 1944-4 Feb 1945; commander, SS X Corps (Kom.Gen. X.SS-Armee-Korps) 4-10 Feb 1945; commander, Corps "Oder" 14 Feb-Apr 1945 [Knights Cross 1944 (for crushing the Warsaw uprising)] {testified at IMT trial of major war criminals 7 Jan 1946 (NYT 8 Jan 1946:10:2); Americans refused Polish attempts to extradite for war crimes 24 Apr 1948 (NYT 25 Apr 1948:10:1); convicted of war crimes by a West German court 1949; sentenced by the main denazification court in Munich (München Hauptspruchkammer) to 10 years' "special labor" 31 Mar 1951 (house arrest within his home in Laffenau / Franken to Nov 1952); rearrested Dec 1958; convicted by a West German court in 1961 for crimes arising out of the 1934 "Night of the Long Knives" purge or murders in Breslau, Silesia in 1941-1942 (SS: Roll of Infamy p. 9); sentenced to 4 1/2 years imprisonment; convicted 1962 by the Nürnberg Schwurgericht for murders during the 1934 "Night of the Long Knives" purge; sentenced to life imprisonment; died 8 Mar 1972 at Munich-Harlaching prison hospital (NYT 21 Mar 1972:44:1). (Axis Biographical Research, SS und Deutschen Polizei [SS and German Police], http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/SS-PO ... lizei.html; Who's Who pps. 9-10; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich pps. 61-2; Auschwitz Chronicles pps. 807-8; Allgemeine-SS p. 54; SS: Roll of Infamy pps. 8-9; Dienstaltersliste der Schutzstaffel der NSDAP [9 Nov 1944]).}

Bender, Dr. jur. Horst (24.2.1905-8.11.1987) [SS-Oberführer] -- b. Lyck, East Prussia; NSDAP-Nr.: 1261871 (joined 1 Aug 1932); SS-Nr.: 122746 (joined 1 Apr 1933); chief of staff, SS District I (Stabsf. Ab. I) (on 1 Jul 1934); SS Judge and chief of liaison attached to the Personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS; chief of the SS Judicial Main Office (Leiter der Hauptabteilung SS-Richterlicher); legal advisor to the Reichsfuehrer SS (Rechtsberater des RFSS) (Dienstaltersliste der Schutzstaffel der NSDAP [1 Jul 1934]; Dienstaltersliste der Schutzstaffel der NSDAP [9 Nov 1944]) {survived war; still living and practicing law at Stuttgart 1973; died 8 Nov 1987 (Third Reich Forum, "Horst Bender," http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... 768#213768).}

Bradfisch, Dr. jur. Otto (10.5.1903-?) [SS-Obersturmbannführer] -- b. Zweibruecken; NSDAP-Nr.: 405869 (joined 1 Jan 1931); SS-Nr.: 310180 (joined 26 Sept 1938); commander, 8th Action Command of Action Group B (Einsatzkommando 8 /Einsatzgruppe B) Jun 1941-Jan 1942 or 1 Apr 1942; service, German Security Service (Sicherheitsdienst - SD) Neustadt; chief, State Police Station (Chef, Stapostelle) "Litzmannstadt" (Lodz), Warthegau Jan 1942-1944; Mayor of Lodz, Jul 1943-Dec 1944 {arrested and put on trial 1961 by a West German court at Munich/ Straubling for war crimes committed Jun-Dec 1941 at Baranowicze, Bialystok, Bobruisk, Borissow (Borisov), Gomel, Gorki, Klinzy, Minsk, Mogilew (Mogilev), Nowogrodek (Novogrodek), Orscha, Rjetschiza, Rogatschew, and Sluzk, consisting of the shooting executions of thousands of Jewish men, women and children and Soviet POWs; convicted and sentenced to 10 years imprisonment 21 Jul 1961 (NYT 22 Aug 1963:19:3; JuNSV Verfahren Lfd.Nr.519; LG München I 610721 [22 Ks 1/61]); held by West German authorities for 2 Sept 1963 trial on charges of complicity in the deportation and death of thousands of Polish Jews of the Lodz ghetto (NYT 22 Aug 1963:19:3; NYT 3 Sept 1963:12:6); put on trial by a West German court at Hannover; convicted and sentenced to 13 years imprisonment 18 Nov 1963 (NYT 19 Nov 1963:8:4; JuNSV Verfahren Lfd.Nr.557; LG Hannover 631118; BGH 641006); commuted to 6 years (Rueckerl 130, Holo Ency 1792-3; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 106; Field Men p. 45; Axis Biographical Research, SS und Deutschen Polizei [SS and German Police], http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/SS-PO ... lizei.html).}

Canaris, Wilhelm (1.1.1887-9.4.1945) [Admiral] -- b. Aplerbek; WWI service as navy officer; chief, Counterintelligence Section of the Armed Forces High Command (Abwehrabteilung, OKW) 26 Apr 1935-6 Feb 1938, chief of the Departmental Group for Armed Forces Affairs 7 Feb-31 May 1938; chief of Departmental Group in Abwehr/Foreign Affairs 1 Jun 1938-8 Nov 1939; chief of Abwehr Foreign Office, OKW 8 Nov 1939-12 Feb 1944; OKW, chief of the Special Staff for Economic Warfare (Chef des Sonderstabes für Handelswirtschaftskrieg); dispositional officer with Armed Forces High Command (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht - OKW) 13 Feb-20 Mar 1944 {anti-Hitler conspirator; arrested by German Secret State Police (Geheime Staatspolizei - Gestapo) 23 Jul 1944 for treason following the 20 Jul 1944 attempt on Hitler’s life; hanged 9 Apr 1945 at concentration camp (Konzentrationslager - KL) Flossenbuerg (NYT 11 Jun 1946:9:1; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich pps. 125-6; Snyder Ency 50; http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/WEHRM ... arine.html).}

Eichmann, Karl Adolf (19.3.1906-31.5.1962) [SS-Obersturmbannfűhrer] -- b. Solingen; joined Austrian NSDAP 1931; chief, German Secret State Police (Geheime Staatspolizei – Gestapo) Department IV B-4 Jewish Affairs; head, RSHA Sondereinsatzkommando Eichmann {taken prisoner by American troops 1945 while using a false identity as Luftwaffe private "Adolf Barth"; escaped from American custody 1946; lived as a laborer for 3 years in northern Germany cutting wood; left Germany 1950 with false identity papers and moved to Spain; moved to Argentina 1952, then to Brazil; moved to Paraguay 1954; returned to Argentina; moved to Bolivia 1955; returned to Argentina 1956; identity and location discovered by West Germany 1959 and provided to Israeli authorities (NYT 19 Feb 1969:3:3); abducted by Israeli agents at Buenos Aires c. 12-13 May 1960 and brought to Israel 23 May 1960 to stand trial; charges of 12 counts of war crimes presented to Eichmann 1 Feb 1961 (NYT 2 Feb 1961:1:2; NYT 3 Feb 1961:3:2); indicted on 15-count indictment 22 Feb 1961 (NYT 23 Feb 1961:2:7); put on trial at Jerusalem 11 Apr 1961 on 15 counts of murder, war crimes and crimes against humanity; convicted 11 Dec 1961 of war crimes by an Israeli court (NYT 11 Dec 1961:1:8 & 19:5; NYT 12 Dec 1961:1:5 & 14:1 [excerpts from judgment of conviction]; NYT 13 Dec 1961:18:1 [more excerpts from judgment of conviction]; NYT 14 Dec 1961:1:2; NYT 15 Dec 1961:12:2 [text of Eichmann's statement to court]); sentenced to death by hanging 15 Dec 1961; executed at Ramle prison 31 May 1962; death announced 1 Jun 1962 (NYT 1 Jun 1962:1:2; NYT 17 Jun 1962:2:4). (Who's Who pps. 62-3; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 226; Snyder Ency 80-81; SS: Roll of Infamy p. 40; Leaders and Personalities of the Third Reich vol. 2, pp. 131-134).}

Heydrich, Reinhard Tristan Eugen (7.3.1904-4.6.1942) [SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Polizei] – b. Halle an der Saale; NSDAP-Nr.: 544916 (joined 1931); SS-Nr.: 10120 (joined 1931); Freikorps member 1919-1920; co-founder of the German Peoples’ Youth Association (Deutschen volkischen Jugendschaft) 1921; service as naval officer 1922-1931; cashiered from Reichsmarine as Oberleutnant zur See by Navy court of honor 1931; Major in the Luftwaffe; chief of the NSDAP Security Service (Chef der Sicherheitsdienstes - SD) Jul 1932; leader of the Political Branch of the Munich police (Leiter der Politischen Abteilung der Polizeidirektion Munchen) Mar 1933; chief of the Security Service Main Office (Chef SD-Hauptamt) (redesignated Reich Security Main Office [Reichssicherheitshauptamt - RSHA] 27 Sept 1939, merging the Security Police [Sicherheitspolizei – Sipo] and the NSDAP Security Service [Sicherheitsdienst – SD]); deputy Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia (Stellvertreter Reichsprotektor, Boehmen und Maehren) at Prague Oct 1941-4 Jun 1942; Reichstag deputy {presided over the Wannsee Conference on the “final solution of the Jewish question,” Berlin, 20 Jan 1942; mortally wounded in an assassination attempt by Czech partisans on 27 May 1942; died of injuries 4 Jun 1942 in a Prague hospital (ABR-SS; SS: Roll of Infamy pps. 70-71).}

Himmler, Heinrich (7.10.1900-23.5.1945) [Reichsführer-SS] – NSDAP: 14303; SS: 168; commander of the SS (Reichsführer-SS) 6 Jan 1929-Apr 1945; Chief of the German Police (Chef der deutschen Polizei) 1936-Apr 1945; Reich Minister of the Interior (Reichsminister des Innern) Aug 1943-Apr 1945; commander of the Replacement Army (Chef des Ersatzheeres) Jul 1944-Apr 1945; commander, Army Group "Weichsel" (OB Heeresgruppe "Weichsel") 1945; Reichstag deputy (Mitglied des Reichstages) {taken prisoner by British troops while disguised as a private soldier near Lueneberg, Germany; killed himself at Lueneberg after being recognized by biting into a concealed capsule of potassium cyanide 23 May 1945 (NYT 25 May 1945:1:5 & 8:3; LT 25 May 1945:4:d; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich pps. 410-412; SS: Roll of Infamy pps. 73-75); property seized by West German denazification court at Berlin 10 May 1961 (NYT 11 May 1961:17:1; Dienstaltersliste der Schutzstaffel der NSDAP [9 Nov 1944]).}

Hoess, Rudolf Franz Ferdinand (25.11.1900-15.4.1947) [SS-Obersturmbannfűhrer] -- b. Baden-Baden; WWI veteran; NSDAP-Nr.: unk.; SS-Nr.: 193616; service, concentration camp (Konzentrationslager - KL) Dachau 1934-1938; service, KL Sachsenhausen 1938-1940; commandant, KL Auschwitz 1940-1943; chief of Department D I Concentration Camp Administration Central Office of the SS Economics and Administration Main Office (Chef Amt D I, SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamt - SS-WVHA); service, KL Oranienburg 1943-May 1945 {arrested by British security police 16 Mar 1946 (NYT 17 Mar 1946:31:4; NYT 20 Mar 1946:3:5); extradition to Poland and impending trial announced 17 Nov 1946 (NYT 18 Nov 1946:7:4); put on trial 11 Mar 1947 by the Polish War Crimes Tribunal at Warsaw (NYT 12 Mar 1947:6:2; NYT 31 Mar 1947:7:4; LT 12 Mar 1947:3d); sentenced to death by hanging for war crimes by Poland 2 Apr 1947 (NYT 3 Apr 1947:14:5; LT 3 Apr 1947:3e); executed at Auschwitz 15 Apr 1947 (NYT 13 Apr 1947:29:6; NYT 16 Apr 1947:12:4; LT 16 Apr 1947:3e) (Camp Men pps. 112, 287; Death Dealer pps. 19, 197; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 444; SS: Roll of Infamy p. 77; ABR-SS).}

Kersten, Felix (30.9.1898-?) -- b. Estonia; chiropractor; began treating Himmler for stomach cramps in 1941; author, The Kersten Memoirs, 1940-1945 (Hutchinson, London: 1956); biographies: Kessel, Joseph, The Man With the Miraculous Hands: Himmler's Private Doctor, Dell Publishing Company; New York: 1962; documentary film "Who Was Felix Kersten . . ?" 1998; John H. Waller, "The Devil's Doctor: Felix Kersten and the Secret Plot to Turn Himmler Against Hitler," (2002).

Ohlendorf, Prof. Dr. jur. Otto (4.2.1907-7.6.1951) [SS-Gruppenfűhrer und Generalleutnant der Polizei] -- NSDAP: 6531; SS: 880; service, Reich Security Main Office for the NSDAP Security Service (SD-Hauptamt/RSHA) (on 1 Dec 1937)-8 May 1945; chief, Reich Security Main Office Department III NSDAP Security Service Inland (RSHA Amt III Sicherheitsdienst - Deutschland) (on 1 Jan 1941); commander, Action Group D (Einsatzgruppe D) Jun 1941- Jul 1942; undersecretary in the Reich Ministry of Economics (Unterstaatssekretaer in Reichswirtschaftministerium) {testified at International Military Tribunal trial of major war criminals 3 Jan 1946 (NYT 4 Jan 1946:6:3); put on trial by an American military tribunal at Nuremberg (the "Einsatzgruppe case") on charges of mass murder arising out of the mass murders of Russian Jews, Soviet POWs and communist functionaries while he was in command of Einsatzgruppe D (LT 9 Apr 1948:4e); convicted of war crimes and sentenced to death by hanging 10 Apr 1948 (NYT 11 Apr 1948:9:1; LT 10 Apr 1948:3e; LT 12 Apr 1948:4f); clemency refused 31 Jan 1951 by General Thomas T. Handy, US armed forces commander in Europe (NYT 1 Feb 1951:1:2); executed at Landsberg-am-Lech prison 7 Jun 1951 (NYT 7 Jun 1951:1:7; LT 8 Jun 1951:6d; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich pps. 665-6; SS: Roll of Infamy p. 128; Field Men p. 93; ABR-SS; Dienstaltersliste der Schutzstaffel der NSDAP [9 Nov 1944]; Third Reich Historical Forum, "Landsberg Executions," http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23517).

Streckenbach, Bruno (7.2.1902-28.10.1977) [SS-Gruppenführer und Generalleutnant der Polizei und Waffen-SS] -- NSDAP: 489972; SS: 14713; commander, Ist Action Group (Einsatzgruppe I) during the Polish campaign in the 14th Army area Aug-20 Nov 1939; commander, German Security Police and Security Service (Kommandeur der Sicherheistpolizei und des Sicherheitsdienstes [KdS]) Cracow c. 20 Nov 1939–1940; senior commander, German Security Police and Security Service (Sicherheitspolizei und Sicherheitsdienst - Sipo/SD) Generalgouvernement Nov 1939-Jan 1941; chief of Personnel, Reich Security Main Office (Reichssicherheitshauptamt - RSHA Amt I) Jun 1940-Mar 1943; commander, 8th SS Division "Florian Geyer" Sept 1943-Mar 1944; commander, 19th SS Volunteer Division "Lettische" Mar 1944-May 1945 [Knights Cross 1944; Oakleaves 1945] {captured by the Russians 8 May 1945; held after May 1950 as war criminal (NYT 7 May 1950:35:3); impending release pursuant to "Adenauer amnesty" announced by Nikita S. Krushchev 9 Sept 1955 (Gulag Archipelago vol. 3, pps. 441-2); kept in solitary confinement by the Soviets in Lubjanka prison in Moscow until his release on October 10, 1955; arrested 1961 but released; 1973 war crimes proceedings dismissed by Hamburg County Court 30 Apr 1974 due to ill health (Hitler's Justice pps. 259-60); died 28 Oct 1977 in Hamburg. (Waffen-SS V, 96; Field Men p. 117; SS: Roll of Infamy pps. 164-5; Waffen-SS Commanders II, pps. 274-9; ABR-SS; Dienstaltersliste der Schutzstaffel der NSDAP [9 Nov 1944]).}

Wisliceny, Dieter (1899 (SS: Roll of Infamy p. 175) or 1911 (Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 1054) -1948) [SS-Sturmbannfűhrer (SS: Roll of Infamy p. 175) or SS-Hauptsturmfűhrer (Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 1054)] -- service, Reich Security Main Office Special Action Command "Eichmann" (RSHA Sondereinsatzkommando Eichmann) {arrested by British authorities; extradited to Czechoslovakia; put on trial by a Czechoslovakian court for war crimes; convicted and sentenced to death by hanging; executed at Pressburg (Bratislava) 27 Feb 1948 (Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 1054) or Jul 1948 (SS: Roll of Infamy p. 175).}

Wolff, Karl Friedrich Otto (13.5.1900-7.1984) [SS-Oberstgruppenfűhrer] – NSDAP: 695131 (joined 1931); SS: 14235 (joined 1931); Reichstag deputy (Mitglied des Reichstages) 1933-1945; chief of staff, SS Personal Staff Main Office 1939-1945; Senior SS and Police Commander "Upper Italy West" (HSSPF "Oberitalien West") Feb-Sept 1943; Highest SS and Police Commander "Italy" (HoSSPF "Italien") 23 Sept 1943-8 May 1945; military governor, northern Italy Feb-Oct 1943; commander, 29th SS Grenadier Division "Italienische Nr. 1" Feb-May 1945; {sentenced to 4 years imprisonment 1949 by Hamburg court; arrested by West Germany authorities at his villa at Kempfenhausen on Starnberg Lake 18 Jan 1962 (NYT 23 Jan 1962:8:4); impending trial announced 6 Jul 1964 by West German authorities (NYT 7 Jul 1964:14:6; NYT 12 Jul 1964:18:3); put on trial by a West German court at Munich 13 Jul 1964 on charges of aiding and abetting the murders of 300,000 persons (NYT 14 Jul 1964:11:1; NYT 16 Jul 1964:6:7; NYT 21 Jul 1964:12:7; NYT 15 Sept 1964:6:2; NYT 22 Sept 1964:13:6); convicted and sentenced 30 Sept 1964 by a West German court at Munich, Germany to fifteen years imprisonment and ten years deprivation of civil rights for helping with the mass murders of the Jews of Warsaw while a member of Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler's personal staff on 16 Jul 1942 at Vinnitza (Winniza) by intervening with a State Secretary in the Reich Transport Ministry (Staatssekretär im Reichsverkehrsministerium) to facilitate the deportations to concentration camp (Konzentrationslager - KL) Treblinka (JuNSV Verfahren Lfd.Nr.580; LG München II 640930; BGH 651026; NYT 1 Oct 1964:1:1); released for good behavior in 1971; died at Rosenheim 15 or 17 Jul 1984 (Good Old Days 302-3; Holo Ency 1658-9; Who's Who 343-4; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 1055; Allgemeine-SS p. 24; SS: Roll of Infamy pps. 182-3; ABR-SS; Dienstaltersliste der Schutzstaffel der NSDAP [9 Nov 1944]).}

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Post by David Thompson » 12 Jun 2003 16:40

Michael -- After reading your comments, I went back to some of my sources and re-read them. I thought it might be helpful to post at least one of them -- Gerald Fleming's 1982 work "Hitler und die Endloesung: 'Es ist des Fuehrers Wunsch . . .'", translation in 1984 as "Hitler and the Final Solution." The extract here consists of pps. 50-60:
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Post by David Thompson » 12 Jun 2003 16:41

Part 2:
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Post by David Thompson » 12 Jun 2003 16:43

Part 3:
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Post by David Thompson » 12 Jun 2003 16:44

Part 4 (and final):
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Post by David Thompson » 21 Jul 2004 05:19

Here are a few more examples of statements by Heinrich Himmler, taken from ed. Eugen Kogon, Hermann Langbein and Adalbert Rueckerl's book Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the Use of Poison Gas, Yale University Press, New Haven/London: 1993, pp. 215-216. The footnotes cites to Himmler, Heinrich, Geheimreden 1933 bis 1945 (Secret Speeches 1933-1945), Frankfurt, pp. 202f.:
Heinrich Himmler referred many times to the order the Führer had given him to solve "the Jewish problem" by radical means. On 5 May 1944 in Sonthofen, where one of the National Socialist political training centers was located, he told a group of Wehrmacht generals: "The Führer had warned the Jews at the beginning of the war or before the war: `If you push the peoples of Europe toward war again, that will mean not the extermination of the German people but the extermination of the Jews.' The Jewish problem has been solved in Germany and, in general, in the countries occupied by Germany. . . . I am telling you this as comrades. We are all soldiers, whatever uniform we may wear. You can understand how difficult it was for me to carry out the order that had been given, which I obeyed and which I executed with complete conviction."

216 How It Was Possible

Three weeks later, on 24 May, he again addressed a group of generals gathered in Sonthofen: "Another question was essential for the internal security of the Reich and of Europe. That was the Jewish question. It has been solved without compromise, in accordance with orders and with conviction based on reason. [At this point, applause can be heard on the sound-recording tape that has been preserved.] . . . I did not consider that I had the right—this concerns the Jewish women and children—to allow the children to become the avengers who would kill our fathers and our grandchildren. I would have considered that to be cowardice. That is why the question was settled without compromise."

On 21 June he once more spoke to a group of generals in Sonthofen: "An-other important question still had to be solved. It was the most terrible duty and the most terrible task ever assigned to an organization: the mission of solving the Jewish question." 16

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Post by Sergey Romanov » 21 Jul 2004 12:56

> - Jews were particularly targeted in the killing operations because they were considered to be the main "bearers of Bolshevism", rather than simply because they were Jews as such.

Mills' demagoguery is astonishing. No antisemite hates the Jews because they are "Jews as such". They hate them because they consider them to be "Christ-killers", "Christian blood eaters", "bearers of Bolshevism, atheism, decadence, etc.", "members of the worldwide Jewish cabal", etc.

Thus EGs _were_ killing Jews as "Jews as such" (in practice), some of them thinking that they were "bearers of Bolshevism", others finding other excuses.

BTW, I recommend Browning's latest book about the evolution of the Final Solution, which I'm reading now:

The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 5?v=glance

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Mill's astonishing demagoguery

Post by Erik » 21 Jul 2004 18:39

Mr. Romanov:
Mills' demagoguery is astonishing. No antisemite hates the Jews because they are "Jews as such". They hate them because they consider them to be "Christ-killers", "Christian blood eaters", "bearers of Bolshevism, atheism, decadence, etc.", "members of the worldwide Jewish cabal", etc.

Thus EGs _were_ killing Jews as "Jews as such" (in practice), some of them thinking that they were "bearers of Bolshevism", others finding other excuses.


It is impossible to kill Jews as…
"Christ-killers", "Christian blood eaters", "bearers of Bolshevism, atheism, decadence, etc.", "members of the worldwide Jewish cabal", etc.
…without killing ”Jews as such”.

Is it possible to hate Jews as…
"Christ-killers", "Christian blood eaters", "bearers of Bolshevism, atheism, decadence, etc.", "members of the worldwide Jewish cabal", etc.
…without hating ”Jews as such”?

Is it possible to hate Jews without ”excuses”?
No antisemite hates the Jews because they are "Jews as such".
They must have excuses.

Is it possible to hate…
"Christ-killers", "Christian blood eaters", "bearers of Bolshevism, atheism, decadence, etc.", "members of the worldwide Jewish cabal", etc.
…without hating Jews?

Again: is it possible to hate Jews without excuses? To hate Jews just because they’re Jews?

Repeat:
No antisemite hates the Jews because they are "Jews as such".
First an excuse to hate Jews, then they can hate?
Thus EGs _were_ killing Jews as "Jews as such" (in practice), some of them thinking that they were "bearers of Bolshevism", others finding other excuses.


It is not possible to kill Jews without first finding an excuse.
> - Jews were particularly targeted in the killing operations because they were considered to be the main "bearers of Bolshevism", rather than simply because they were Jews as such.

Mills' demagoguery is astonishing.


Why demagoguery or astonishing, if excuses are necessary, lest the Jews are hated and killed because they are "Jews as such"?

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Post by waffen » 08 Nov 2004 09:31

:D a well balanced and interesting study of the past a good read..

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Re: Himmler, Heydrich and the Fuehrer Order

Post by David Thompson » 20 Jul 2011 04:43

A post from murx, devoid of sources and raising a number of off-topic questions, was removed by the moderator pursuant to numerous prior warnings on sourcing and topicality - DT.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1594664 (sourcing)
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http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1522883 (sourcing)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1527767 (off-topic flamebait)

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1601162 (topicality)
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